Guest Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 For what it's worth - the pic that Casey posted a while back seems to suggest some work on the sedan's problem areas: Looks like the only thing they addressed is the front fender. The front bumper and rear quarters still need some work. They look like they can be fixed fairly easily. I'll be working on the bumpers anyway to get rid of the bumper guards and mold lines. But, I can also see the big nasty bulge at the bottom rear of the wheel well. So, it looks like the chassis and wheel well issues from the 300 made it to the wagon also. I think I may have a fairly simple fix for that issue. I'll see when I get into it.
Ace-Garageguy Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) I'm not sure I understand, though, how anyone with a half decent eye for contour and proportion can't see them in direct comparison. Umm hmm. My thoughts exactly. And if this phrase describes the folks responsible for doing the tooling...and approving it...well, as they say...THERE'S your problem. I can't fathom why anyone lacking those talents would be hired for the job in the first place, why they'd want it, or how they'd be able to keep it after demonstrating a deficiency in that area. Edited March 14, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy
Toner283 Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 Looks like the only thing they addressed is the front fender. The front bumper and rear quarters still need some work. They look like they can be fixed fairly easily. I'll be working on the bumpers anyway to get rid of the bumper guards and mold lines. But, I can also see the big nasty bulge at the bottom rear of the wheel well. So, it looks like the chassis and wheel well issues from the 300 made it to the wagon also. I think I may have a fairly simple fix for that issue. I'll see when I get into it. IIRC Norm @ replicas and miniatures of maryland has a set of smoothed bumpers for the sedan. Not sure if the wagon rear bumper is different though.
Chuck Kourouklis Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 Umm hmm. My thoughts exactly. And if this phrase describes the folks responsible for doing the tooling,,,and approving it...well, as they say...THERE'S your problem. I can't fathom why anyone lacking those talents would be hired for the job in the first place, why they'd want it, or how they'd be able to keep it after demonstrating a deficiency in that area. Yeah, and Roger had a pretty good take on John's basic point back on p 8, post 150, too. Looks like the only thing they addressed is the front fender. The front bumper and rear quarters still need some work. They look like they can be fixed fairly easily. I'll be working on the bumpers anyway to get rid of the bumper guards and mold lines. But, I can also see the big nasty bulge at the bottom rear of the wheel well. So, it looks like the chassis and wheel well issues from the 300 made it to the wagon also. I think I may have a fairly simple fix for that issue. I'll see when I get into it. Can't say for sure, but it does look like they've made the rear wheel arch line a bit less of a linear gouge and a bit more of a concave feature. Rear quarter crease still looks like it could stand to reach back a bit further, though.
John Goschke Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 Looks like the only thing they addressed is the front fender. The front bumper and rear quarters still need some work. They look like they can be fixed fairly easily. I'll be working on the bumpers anyway to get rid of the bumper guards and mold lines. But, I can also see the big nasty bulge at the bottom rear of the wheel well. So, it looks like the chassis and wheel well issues from the 300 made it to the wagon also. I think I may have a fairly simple fix for that issue. I'll see when I get into it. If you mean that funky bump-out inside the front wheel, that is actually present in the real car. It's really obvious on this Custom Custom 300 where the builder, in popular early '60s fashion, has added a tuck-'n-roll cover to it (not something I'd recommend.) The top inside of the wheel well on the kit does need a fix, particularly if you're going to lower the car, or just want your replica to look like it has more than three inches of suspension travel in the front! FWIW, the Squarebirds from '58-'60 had a similar bump at the back of the wheel opening, that AMT ignored when they did their kits in '59 and '60. An inaccuracy that I'm happy to live with! It sticks out like a sore thumb here since Larry Watson painted the inside of the wheel opening white (again, not recommended!)
Guest Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 Sorry I dont have good eyes, I have looked, and while there may be issues, I just dont think they are that big a deal.
Chuck Kourouklis Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) I'd like to take a moment now to note a distinction, possibly due just a L-I-I-I-TTLE more respect 'round here: Maybe it doesn't really boil down to intelligence OR the sharpness of your eyes; maybe sensitivity to proportion is just more a matter of habit or self-training. And there IS a difference between affably pointing out you don't see a given problem... (^^) and continuing to be so uselessly snide about the observation - or insisting that people need micrometers and other "engineering tools" to pick nits - out of your own inability to see that problem. Edited March 18, 2015 by Chuck Kourouklis
Craig Irwin Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) We all come to our own acceptance level on quality, some of us were born and raised when Americans built and did their best. Today everyone's used to the cheap Chinese meritocracy at Walmart. The majority won't pay for quality, so we don't get quality. Edited March 14, 2015 by Craig Irwin
Ace-Garageguy Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) I'd like to take a moment now to note a distinction, possibly due just a L-I-I-I-TTLE more respect 'round here: Maybe it doesn't really boil down to intelligence or the sharpness of your eyes; maybe sensitivity to proportion is just more a matter of habit or self-training... An absolutely excellent point, which will, I hope, go some way to make those who don't notice these discrepancies feel less persecuted. But at the risk of offending some of them, I firmly believe the ability to instantly notice flaws in a 3-dimensional object is also a matter of hard-wired talent. Just as some people don't notice when a musical performance is full of minor but still jarring sharps or flats, and there are others who cringe when they hear them...and not all of the ones who notice are trained musicians...there are those of us who see a model and immediately know something's wrong. We may not always know exactly what it is until we measure, but we see there's something off enough to distort the initial impact of a design. Not everyone who notices flaws in scale representations of vehicles is a trained artist, car designer or engineer either. Nor are they necessarily people who live to find fault. They simply see and comment on what the majority may overlook for any number of reasons. And that's why, when I said I think we should be able to expect models that are free from significant flaws...I included the caveat...that are instantly recognizable to people who are particularly familiar with a particular vehicle. It's not unreasonable to expect that the people who design kit tooling for a living, and get paid to do it...paid well as professionals...should have the ability to spot flaws before the kits are too far along in the development process to correct economically. Edited March 15, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy
southpier Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) ...there are those of us who see a model and immediately know something's wrong. .....we see there's something off enough to distort the initial impact of a design. Not everyone who notices flaws in scale representations of vehicles is a trained artist, car designer or engineer either. ..... simply see and comment on what the majority may overlook for any number of reasons. ... i'm not savvy enough to quote this in another thread or vice versa, but this is pretty much validation we could use (yet!) another category: Design & Engineering - no; not volunteering for moderator position. follows my thought here: http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=99989 posts #11 & 12. "don't know how practical it would be, but i'd like to see a design category in the forum. i understand some threads discuss this, but there are enough serious modelers here who could offer guidelines or criteria. a perfect example is the engine proportion comment (above). i think scale difference can be used to advantage." "i realize this would blur the difference between engineering and art" Edited March 15, 2015 by southpier
Sledsel Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) IIRC Norm @ replicas and miniatures of maryland has a set of smoothed bumpers for the sedan. Not sure if the wagon rear bumper is different though. Question is.... is the RMM front bumper length corrected? Rear bumper is the same on the Custom, Wagons and Rancheros. Great that it is offered tho The very bottom of the front fender looks worse now than before. Just needs filled. After receiving the reply about the mold shop being in China and the may not know what it actually looks like, I told them to move it back here. Problem really is that the people HERE did not relay the information from THEIR measurements. Edited March 15, 2015 by Sledsel
Chuck Kourouklis Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 ...But at the risk of offending some of them, I firmly believe the ability to instantly notice flaws in a 3-dimensional object is also a matter of hard-wired talent. Just as some people don't notice when a musical performance is full of minor but still jarring sharps or flats, and there are others who cringe when they hear them...and not all of the ones who notice are trained musicians...there are those of us who see a model and immediately know something's wrong. We may not always know exactly what it is until we measure, but we see there's something off enough to distort the initial impact of a design. Not everyone who notices flaws in scale representations of vehicles is a trained artist, car designer or engineer either. Nor are they necessarily people who live to find fault. They simply see and comment on what the majority may overlook for any number of reasons. And that's why, when I said I think we should be able to expect models that are free from significant flaws...I included the caveat...that are instantly recognizable to people who are particularly familiar with a particular vehicle. It's not unreasonable to expect that the people who design kit tooling for a living, and get paid to do it...paid well as professionals...should have the ability to spot flaws before the kits are too far along in the development process to correct economically. Right as rain, Bruvva.
Guest Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 If you mean that funky bump-out inside the front wheel, that is actually present in the real car. It's really obvious on this Custom Custom 300 where the builder, in popular early '60s fashion, has added a tuck-'n-roll cover to it (not something I'd recommend.) The top inside of the wheel well on the kit does need a fix, particularly if you're going to lower the car, or just want your replica to look like it has more than three inches of suspension travel in the front! 57FordCustomCustom300.jpg The real car does have a bump out there. But, it's not that big. Especially not as big as the one on that custom. It should be there. Just not that huge. It needs at least a couple of mms shaved off in length and width. A minor detail to some. But, for some reason, it drives me nuts to look at it. I have to fix it. I usually don't care about chassis details that much. But, where that is visible, I can't let it go. Most people won't notice that I've fixed it. But, it won't be setting on most people's shelf either.
Robberbaron Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 But at the risk of offending some of them, I firmly believe the ability to instantly notice flaws in a 3-dimensional object is also a matter of hard-wired talent... Absolutely! We're on a bad streak at my work, dealing with AutoCAD assistants. We usually try to employ at least one college age student part time to do minor revisions and corrections to our ACAD drawings. If things work out, we usually try to transition them into a full time position when they get their BA. The previous kid we had just couldn't get up to speed, so we didn't offer him a full time position. After he left, we got another junior level student. Again, he JUST. DOESN'T. GET IT. As many times as we walk him through it, and try to drill into his head to CHECK YOUR OWN WORK before giving to us to review, he overlooks basic details. I'm convinced that some people just don't have it in them. The difficulty is convincing these guys that they need to find something else that's more suitable to them. The thing that amazes me is that these guys are engineering students with decent GPAs, yet I can't picture them functioning in an engineering capacity in any circumstance after they graduate. Because, you know, details usually matter in engineering...
Ace-Garageguy Posted March 15, 2015 Posted March 15, 2015 Absolutely! We're on a bad streak at my work, dealing with AutoCAD assistants. We usually try to employ at least one college age student part time to do minor revisions and corrections to our ACAD drawings. If things work out, we usually try to transition them into a full time position when they get their BA. The previous kid we had just couldn't get up to speed, so we didn't offer him a full time position. After he left, we got another junior level student. Again, he JUST. DOESN'T. GET IT. As many times as we walk him through it, and try to drill into his head to CHECK YOUR OWN WORK before giving to us to review, he overlooks basic details. I'm convinced that some people just don't have it in them. The difficulty is convincing these guys that they need to find something else that's more suitable to them. The thing that amazes me is that these guys are engineering students with decent GPAs, yet I can't picture them functioning in an engineering capacity in any circumstance after they graduate. Because, you know, details usually matter in engineering... I'm so glad that someone who's experienced this problem in the workplace has chimed in. I've seen it countless times, and having a pretty little certificate on the wall saying you've got this training or that training doesn't mean squat when the rubber hits the road. To be a truly effective project manager, it's necessary to have a grasp of the work your team members do...a full understanding...in order to select the right personnel for the jobs and to set realistic deadlines for project markers...AND to be able to critique the product as it develops to make sure it meets specs. There's an unfortunate belief held these days by a lot of business "experts" that a good manager can manage ANY project in ANY business setting. Bull. A team expected to develop a 3-dimensional product for manufacture MUST be led by someone who can do the work of each and every team member if necessary, AND be a good overall manager with a grasp of the big picture. This is especially critical if the operating budget is tight, and there's not money for multiple layers of management and project oversight.
southpier Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 ..... A team expected to develop a 3-dimensional product for manufacture MUST be led by someone who can do the work of each and every team member if necessary, AND be a good overall manager with a grasp of the big picture..... true, but by the time someone gains that much experience, quite often their position is undercut by a newcomer with "a pretty little certificate" or they've seen too much and realize their experience and paycheck are not going to coincide.
DaveM Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I had a similar experience. I worked at a shop that made parts for the aviation industry, along with other customers. We were pretty used to dealing with the F.A.A., and Military Specs. We got a bright, shiny, new manager one day straight from running a local restaurant chain into bankruptcy. He was a "Too good to pass up" hire for the owner, because he had two business related Masters degrees and a PhD in Management. Before he killed the restaurants, he had run a group of car dealerships that went bankrupt. After we folded, he ended up running a Medical center into the ground! I don't know where he is now, but I bet it will fail. On his first day i the shop, he asked us what everything was called, not understanding even the basic tools, let alone the types of parts we made. The second day, he was telling us how everything we were doing was wrong and how we needed to change all of our procedures. He streamlined inspections down to writing the target number down on the inspection sheet and signing it. He banned process control charts (Waste of time and perfectly good parts) He made the machinists turn up their speeds and feeds to the highest speed where they could still cut. (Woe to the guy who was making precision grooves in threaded stainless on a lathe adjacent to the guy who was turning a piece of scrap aluminum rod down to make a quick and dirty handle for a shop fixture. He was told to "Match that guy's speed or go home!") I agree management has its place, but Managers and the College educated guys usually manage to talk their way into jobs they aren't qualified for, and proceed to prove their worth to their bosses by making all kind of changes. It can get pretty ugly when the "Pretty little certificate" is allowed to trump actual relevant experience. The entitlement culture of management is one of the big reasons America is in the sad state of affairs it is in right now.
gtx6970 Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Excellent analysis, Sledsel. I think having first-hand experience, as you do, with the cars makes it easier to spot these issues. Having owned two '58 Fairlanes, which shared those contours around the wheel wells, and helped my Dad wash our '58 Del Rio when I was a little kid, those errors were immediately apparent. I'm not sure I understand, though, how anyone with a half decent eye for contour and proportion can't see them in direct comparison. To help those guys - if you've got AMT's Fairlane 500 and the Revell Custom Tudor, get 'em both out and look at the sculpturing around the wheel openings on the AMT kit - that's what the Revell kit should look like. It does appear that they may have made some effort to fix these issues on the wagon kit. Hope so, because I'm looking forward to that kit even more than the two-door sedan. Agreed Having first hand experiance with the subject IMO, helps you find and notice flaws others cant see. or pick up on right off the bat if at all. I am a mopar guy at heart and always will be . To me the 70 Cuda had major flaws even before it was released ( the 2 scoop hood is one major one ) I can spot the horrible wheel lips and over sized tail lights right off the bat as well as the wrong body line in the rear quarter panel . And yet,,,To my eye the wagon looks killer and I WILL build one. To others its junk. Edited March 16, 2015 by gtx6970
Ace-Garageguy Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 And yet,,,To my eye the wagon looks killer and I WILL build one. To others its junk. Nobody said it's junk. Even those who've criticized it think it's a nice kit. It is a nice kit with some flaws. Not junk.
khier Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I agree management has its place, but Managers and the College educated guys usually manage to talk their way into jobs they aren't qualified for, .... A manager does not have to be a jerk. A clever manager does not have to cut costs with and without reason. A manager is a decision maker who has an overview of the whole thing. He does not have to be qualified in the business either. But he MUST consult the spicialists in technical matters to know what the hell he is doing.
tim boyd Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 ... as well as the wrong body line in the rear quarter panel . Bill...I've been cataloging all the tweaks needed to take the Revell '70 'cuda body from "pretty good" to "nearly 100% correct". But I am not aware of a problem with the rear quarter panel line. Can you explain further (or emai mail me privately) with what you are referring to? Thanks a bunch...TIM
gtx6970 Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Bill...I've been cataloging all the tweaks needed to take the Revell '70 'cuda body from "pretty good" to "nearly 100% correct". But I am not aware of a problem with the rear quarter panel line. Can you explain further (or emai mail me privately) with what you are referring to? Thanks a bunch...TIM PM sent
tim boyd Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 PM sent Bill...thanks...got it, and yes, i was aware of that problem, just didn't recognize that specific issue is what you were talking about. Really appreciate the follow-up (also sent you a PM). Best Regards...TIM
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