New kits with flaws.

[mikemodeler]

If NASA can e-mail the software for a wrench to be 3D printed aboard the ISS, then a competent company wih a sharp IT department and the courage to spend a little money- as an investment in a tool- should be able to use 3D printing as an R&D tool. The software will continue to be developed until the digital effects won't be noticeable. Think digital sound- it sounds cool and all high-tech, but natural sounds are not digital- they are analog. It's the same with hi-def TV- look close at that digital picture and it looks ugly, but from a viewing distance, it looks great- all sharp and clear. But in reality, nowhere near the real thing, which is also analog. True, natural sound and light are waveforms, not series of pulses. But those digital signals are carefully processed and manipulated to fool the brain; so, too, will be 3D printing.

Companies and corporations, businesses of all sizes need to remember that you have to spend money to make money. Whether those expenditures are on tools, research or employee morale, there will be expenses. Those who are too stingy are doomed to producing mediocre, poor- selling products. Maybe their shareholders will see a little more in their dividends, or the owners might be able to get a bigger Christmas tree, but in the long run, they will be hurting. t have seen it live and in person, firsthand, at my employer back on LI. And in the news recently-Think "GM and ignition switches"...

Maybe the model companies can get the US taxpayers to help them with the costs of the software and 3D printer like taxpayers did for NASA.

I'm sure there is a cost/benefit to having the latest software and printer and I don't know what it would cost for a model kit company to have such technology, but I would think if it were possible they would have it.

[Tom Geiger]

If NASA can e-mail the software for a wrench to be 3D printed aboard the ISS,

This argument is worse than the guy who argued that Time Magazine sells for $2 and is thicker than Model Cars Magazine at $5. Totally different financial circumstances.

[drball]

The thing that seems to be forgotten about investing corporate dollars here in our own nation is that the money will stay here, and not make those in other nations rich.

And I would bet you have money invested in international funds or foreign stocks you do not even know about in your 401k.

So many people I know wave that American flag and shout buy American but complain when their American investments are returning meager amounts. So the companies cut cost by layoffs, outsourcing and manufacturing techniques that sustain some quality with major elements of planned obsolescence intergrated into the design to meet short sighted objectives and quick returns.

[Quick GMC]

Does anyone here have an idea of what the molds cost to make and obtain? If you do, then you understand why the molds and everything else are made overseas. Molds are incredibly expensive.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I work for a small job shop that makes mostly wiring harnesses for many things. One of our big customers who we call "Goofy Engineering" have much made overseas. We get the fun of correcting what the overseas maker screwed up. I do not understand the economy of that. Outside of management. ownership and office, we are seven people who can create, prototype, and have the ability to manufacture 3,000 pieces of product in a day. That goes from creating a print, to cutting wire and cable, crimping, stripping, bundling, soldering, loading connectors and building the conduits and platforms. I wear several hats in my job. I took it upon myself to learn a lot of the processes and procedures of our manufacturing when we were still a 50 person shop. When the economy went bust and overseas outsourcing became reality, I did not get laid off because I proved my worth by learning all the machinery and departments. My specialty is micro coaxial cables and coax cabling in the larger sizes as well plus soldering circuit boards by hand for custom applications. But I learned to do more. I also inspect. Harry P. is right, but all the capability in the world ain't gonna beat that bottom line. On a good note, we are getting a lot of cool work back from China because we have proven to provide a quality product that doesn't have to be reworked or shipped back. Some companies just scrap the bad work and continue with a new order.

This is the kind of thinking that will return manufacturing jobs and the good wages that support a strong middle class to America.

And THIS (excerpted from above) is the kind of thinking that put America on the map in the first place: " I wear several hats in my job. I took it upon myself to learn a lot of the processes and procedures of our manufacturing when we were still a 50 person shop. When the economy went bust and overseas outsourcing became reality, I did not get laid off because I proved my worth by learning all the machinery and departments. "

Truthfully, much of this talk about "pittance wages" in China is almost jingoistic. For just the last four years alone, manufacturing's MINIMUM wage in the provinces that harbor the bulk of Chinese industry (and that list includes the province where the bulk of model kits and diecast stuff is made!) has risen 22% in 2011, 20% in 2012, 17% in 2013, and 13% this year--on top of similarly rapid increases since about 2003-04. Now, by any stretch of the imagination, those are HEFTY pay raises. The bigger fly in the ointment is the currency rate of exchange for the Yuan VS the US Dollar--that the Chinese government keeps artificially high in THEIR favor.

As for the other countries in the region (except for South Korea, Taiwan and Japan), no other country yet has quite the technical ability yet to win any serious business such as we're discussing away from China or the other three. Even the Japanese model companies do their own kit designs and tooling domestically, while farming out production to places such as the Phillipines and Thailand. In addition, energy costs in China are also, by comparison, far higher than in the US--most smaller Chinese factories, such as the ones making toya and hobby products must maintain their own backup sources of electricity themselves, given the inability of the state-run utility companies to keep up with demand. In addition, shipping costs have risen on a skyrocket over the past several years, due to high crude oil prices (thos container ships burn a LOT of oil!), which has lead to a slowing down of cruising speed across the Pacific--what was 12-13 years ago a 10-day voyage from Shanghai or Hong Kong is now a full month--which cuts fuel consumption significantly, but leads to higher wage costs attributable to longer crew times at sea and longer turnaround times for the ships themselves. So, it's not as cut-and-dried as most people want to believe.

Art

Exactly.

A critical analysis and understanding of the big picture is necessary.

Endlessly saying "it can't be done" and irrelevancies like "Maybe the model companies can get the US taxpayers to help them with the costs of the software and 3D printer like taxpayers did for NASA." accomplishes nothing.

EVERYTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE UNTIL SOMEONE MAKES IT HAPPEN.

[Dave Metzner]

It seems plain to me that some of you did not see the part of my explanation about having everything done in one place by one source.

We don't do our production off-shore because we like doing business that way - we do it because there is no other sensible alternative for us today!

Labor costs in China are not a big factor that drives the decision to do the work there. Costs are not even the primary driving factor(especially now with costs constantly going up over there)

Factor #1 above ALL else is that we essentially talk to one guy for everything from 3D drawings to getting the container of finished goods on the boat. (Just the fact that it all happens in the hands of one factory is a big cost containment factor of and by itself.)

That cannot be done in this country.

Unless we can find funds to build our own factory with a prototyping operation, a tooling shop, production machinery from injection machine to vaccuum metalizing equipment and a print shop attached to it , then find a way for that facility to run three shifts a day 7 days a week, so it can pay for itself, we're unlikely to move the bulk of our production back to the US

Now, I send a set of references or a sculpt for a kit to my partner in China and at the end of the process they send me finished goods! This really is the only way we can make it work for us.

[mikemodeler]

Once again, thank you Dave for shedding light on how the process works for you and Moebius.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you.

[bobthehobbyguy]

Dave thank you for giving the insight on how the process works.

M3rry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

[bonehead23]

I read some of the threads here - not all - and not completely, because my time for such activities is limited, so I don't see every comment on every new kit.

There seems to me to be a feeling among some members here, that we are somewhat careless and sloppy in the way we go about researching and developing kits.

I guess that you could say I have an interest in making an effort to provide some explanation of how / why some new kits have flaws .

I think that I can speak for all of us who try to put nice new kits on store shelves when I say that flaws in kits occur for many reasons none of which include intentionally sloppy research or a lack of caring about the quality of kits we work to produce.

#1 As has been stated over and over, unless the subject is an all new car there are no factory drawings / factory clay models/ digital files to work with - In the "old"days" Johan and AMT had direct accesss to the factory design departments because they produced promos for the Big 3.

Today a 1960's era car kit is an exercise in finding a good reference vehicle to photograph and measure (hopefully a factory stock perfectly preserved or restored example) - then getting photos of every possible detail with good dimensional reference in every photo so China can see exactly what the car looks like. Believe me when it come time to make a mock-up there are never enough photos - there are always details that can't be found in photos.

To be truthful the best solution for me would be to have a perfectly restored example of my next kit sitting in my garage from start of research to finally approved kit in the box so that I could walk out and photograph or measure each little detail whenever there was a question from China

As for the suggestion, often offered in these forums, that reference vehices can be simply scanned into a computer file, my answer is not yet - not for a cost that works for us - and even after a scan is done that still does not provide all the details needed to produce a kit. Even if I could simply scan the car into my computer, I'd still need photos of all the interior, probably photos of the engine bay and lots of details that will not show clearly on a scan.

Errors are bound to creep in because the reference vehicle has non stock features - or because available photos are not perfect references or because the product developer didn't catch them. I can't speak for others but I share images of 3Ds, and mock-ups with several other experienced and trusted modelers and car guys as well as sending test shots to some of these same folks, in my best effort to catch errors that I did not see! ( I don't know for sure but I'd bet that Revell does the same thing) Even then I know thay errors will creep in! I try to educate myself on any specific vehicle we're doing - but I am not a walking encyclopedia of automotive details, and there is no chance that I will ever become one.

#2 The days of working from hand built 1/10 scale models and cutting tools with pantograph machines are as far gone as the age of the steam locomotive. Today every detail if the finished model is produced in a computer 3D file before any physical parts are made. All tool mking is now done from digital files - no more tool makers going into a tool into a tool and revising it by hand if you need to fix something. (To make revisions to our 61 Pontiac we needed to first go back and revise everything in the 3D files and approve all that before they'll touch the tools)

Which brings me to one of several reasons that we miss release dates. The tooling revison process takes time, LOTS OF TIME - when I find a problem - I tell China - they revise 3D files - 15 to 30 days later I get revised 3D files - I review the 3Ds if the files are right they make changes to tools - 30 to 45 days later they send me a test shot. which take about a week in transit. For me to build and review a test shot add another week or so - IF the 3Ds files were NOT right - add 15 to 30 more days. when I get done reviewing the test shot and something else needs to be fixed we can go right back to the revise 3D files step again!

#3 Simple economics dictate that we can't delay a kit to tweak of every tiny detail. We do our best to get these details right - honestly, we do, and product release dates get pushed back because we're doing our damnedest to get them right! BUT at some point we need to decide whether it's more important to keep pouring time and added dollars into revising tools or putting a less than PERFECT kit on store shelves. Trust me, as an example, our factory doe not revise tools for free. I can't keep going back and fixing every tiny detail - if I do try to do that, then there won't be a Moebius Models any longer.

#4 Styrene Plastic injected in steel tooling is an imperfect medium - steel tooling and injection molding can produce spectacularly complex shapes IF you have a big enough budget and plan on producing a big enough run of parts. That said, there are limits to our tooling budgets and production quantities, so from time to time there will be some compromises made in order to keep costs in line - sometimes there will be shapes that cannot be produced in a core, cavity and four slides typically used to make up a car body - that's just the nature of the beast

#5 I see the comments regarding high price of kits these days - I hate to say it but our costs are rising steadily, as are the costs of every other manufacturer - wages in China are going up, old cheap technology is going the way of the Dodo bird, 3D file and CAD design are more costly now in China than a room full of guys making tooling models by hand was a few years ago.. the day of the 10 or 15 dollar kit is past - the days of running 15-20,000 kits every run are long gone. Now those of us who produce kits need to find ways to keep our lights on while running 10,000 or less of a given kit and paying higher tooling and development costs - that. my friend results in a more exensive product on the shelves. It cannot be helped - the days of running 50 thousand copies of any one kit are also long gone.

#6 I keep seeing this question:Why can't you move back to the US? - The simple answer is that there is no one-stop shop for producers like Moebius or for that matter Revell in the US.

In order to produce kits here I'd need a design operation to produce the 3D files for tooling - then a tooling shop to translate those drawings to tooling - then a production shop to shoot plastic in those tools - a printer to produce packaging and instructions - probably a decal printer because the guy who prints boxes can't print decals - then I need to bring everything together somewhere to put it all in a box for the custome to buy - Now it all happens in one place I deal with one guy who makes ONE profit from the transaction, not 6 different guys each of whom expects to profit fromthe their piece of the total project

#7 We are a model kit company, not only a model car kit company, unlike Johan and AMT were, "back in the day". We produce a wide range of kits, not only car kits, so we are not specialized to only do cars - Johan started as 100% cars - AMT originated as 100% car models, while about 30% of the projects that I have going right now are car kits. (BTW Revell is also a multi line model kit company also with a wide range of kits, not only cars)

#8 Company staff size and work loads. I can't speak for other domestic brands here - but our staff in the US is very small

I do almost all product development for EVERY kit we produce NOT just car kits.

Currently I have 20 projects in various stages of development, only 6 of which are cars/trucks. Even though our car kits are less than 1/3 of my project list thay are by far and away the most complex and time consuming projects that I have.

I do my best to research each car project and I talk to several pretty good car modelers and a number of car guys on a very regular basis- I don't pretend to know every detail of each car project - I do my best, but I will be first to tell you that I can and do make mistakes - I'm sure that the same is true of the other guys at other kit producers who do the same job.

We have a full time graphic design guy who produces almost every piece of packaging, decals art, instruction sheets, any magazine ads, all brochures and he does some special project product development - the Florida home office does everything else- licensor relations, purchasing, sales, customer service,warehousing,shipping etc.. All design, tooling, manufacturing, packaging etc is done by our partner in China.

When I see comments here wondering why Moebius or Revell can't put out kits that are absolutely accurate at more affordable prices and on time according to announced release dates all I can think is that there a lack of understanding behind those comments.

I'm sure I won't have changed any minds with my attempted explanation here.

I'm sure that our upcomming kits will inspire the usual chorus of critical comments.

It would, however, be nice to think that there might be a little better understanding for some of the reasons that these kits will have occaisonal flaws, and that we can't just jump right out there and fix them right away.

Dave Metzner

New Product Development Manger

Moebius Models

Dave, I think your company is incredible. Thanks for the explanation; I am sure many modelers are clueless. I on the other hand have been into this hobby since 1958 and to this day i enjoy the challenge of "correcting" flaws, and basically, i take turkeys and make eagles out of them anyway; i build them MY WAY and as i said, enjoy the challenge of an "imperfect" kit. I completed a survey by SAE mag a few years back, and the question was, "Would you pay 15-20 dollars or more for a kit?" HELL YES! I understand how expenses are rising, and modeling is such a large part of my life that i will pay 50 dollars for a good kit without a second thought. It is nice to be retired and have the time and money for it...years ago with two jobs and a band playing every week, raising two kids and a manic depressive wife, i never had the time or money. Now it seems to be we are in the "Good ol'days" that will be lamented and mised in the future when they cost 100 bucks a kit...and i will STILL buy your models, as they are truly different and amazing no matter what the "rabble" says...they all have their priorities and information all wrong.

[johnbuzzed]

Still- a model kit of a relatively current car was introduced in the past year and one of the major body dimensions was incorrect. This was produced by a company that has also produced kits that are just about dead-nuts on. This is a quality control problem; a lack of consistency somewhere along the line. Doesn't matter where or by whom, but people insist on making excuses for this. Please- there are no excuses for this. I don't care if it's a major international corporation or a mom-and-pop small business.

Edited December 25, 2014 by johnbuzzed

[Guest]

Have you NOT read what Dave has said??

[Ace-Garageguy]

Have you NOT read what Dave has said??

I've read it through several times and comprehend exactly every word, phrase and nuance.

Still- a model kit of a relatively current car was introduced in the past year and one of the major body dimensions was incorrect.

Dave's words do not address this particular issue: major...dimensions...incorrect.

Or if you believe they do, please be so kind as to direct us to the sentence, phrase or paragraph that does so.

This is the ONLY issue of complaint that any of the reasonable posters here have had of the industry in general: major...dimensions...incorrect.

[Guest]

Seems to me his answers address the whole thing, some of you just refuse to believe or understand what he is saying. My gosh, this IS just a hobby you know. If YOU think you can make a perfect model, then for pete's sake start a model company and make them!!.

Edited December 25, 2014 by midnightprowler

[mikemodeler]

I've read it through several times and comprehend exactly every word, phrase and nuance.

Dave's words do not address this particular issue: major...dimensions...incorrect.

Or if you believe they do, please be so kind as to direct us to the sentence, phrase or paragraph that does so.

This is the ONLY issue of complaint that any of the reasonable posters here have had of the industry in general: major...dimensions...incorrect.

Could be that Dave doesn't address this issue because he doesn't work for Revell and can't explain why?

Probably safe to say that no one enjoys a kit that is flawed, some just can't let it go.

[Harry P.]

Truthfully, much of this talk about "pittance wages" in China is almost jingoistic.

From HuffPost Business:

Average hourly wage for a factory worker:

US: $23.32

China: $1.26

Average workday:

US: 8.6 hours

China: 12 hours

Chinese wages may be rising at 10-15% a year, but 10% of a buck is a dime. It's all relative.

[Harry P.]

For just the last four years alone, manufacturing's MINIMUM wage in the provinces that harbor the bulk of Chinese industry (and that list includes the province where the bulk of model kits and diecast stuff is made!) has risen 22% in 2011, 20% in 2012, 17% in 2013, and 13% this year--on top of similarly rapid increases since about 2003-04. Now, by any stretch of the imagination, those are HEFTY pay raises. The bigger fly in the ointment is the currency rate of exchange for the Yuan VS the US Dollar--that the Chinese government keeps artificially high in THEIR favor.

A 15% pay raise is a hefty pay raise, percentage-wise. But when you're making a dollar an hour, that "hefty" pay raise equates to 15 cents.

You can cite all the statistics you want. The bottom line is what counts.

Why would a company send its manufacturing all the way to China, then pay to have the product shipped back here so it can be sold?

Because the Chinese can manufacture the product better than the Americans can? No.

Because the Chinese have some sort of technical edge? No.

Because the Chinese are more productive than American workers? No.

The bottom line is, American companies send their manufacturing to China because it costs them less that way than to manufacture their product here.

You can cite the rise in Chinese labor rates, or the exchange rate of Chinese currency vs. the dollar, or the cost of a container ship trip from China to the US all you want, but the fact is there's only one parameter that matters: The bottom line. How much is it going to cost us to manufacture our product and get it on the store shelves? What is the unit cost?

After all the costs are added up, if it's significantly cheaper to have your manufacturing done in China than in the US, then that's what you'll do! That's it. That's the bottom line. And that's why US companies are outsourcing their manufacturing. Because it's cheaper for them to do so!

And like I said earlier, if Chinese wages rise to the point where it's no longer economically advantageous for American companies to do their manufacturing in China, then they'll go elsewhere. Vietnam, Laos, Malaysia... wherever. Wherever the cost to manufacture their product is the lowest.

[Jeff Johnston]

I thought Dave stated in this thread that the main reason (clearly not the only) for the Chinese manufacturing was he talks to one person, and they are a one stop shop. Everything is done in one place, through one guy. Here he would have to farm each piece out separately. At least that's how I read it.

The Chinese get a buck twenty six an hour doesn't mean they are charging US companies the same Rate. I can guarantee you they aren't. I'm sure its a lot less than 23/hr but definitely not $1.23.

The good new behind this thread, as I see it, is that the top guy explains to us how inaccuracies happen and why. This is from an organization that has developed some very accurate kits in recent years.. Not once do I recall a thread about any inaccuracies the Hudson's or Chryslers or Lonestar kits. This shows me the level of scrutiny they put into this because as to my eye, these kits are the top of the heap with respect to Accuracy.

I sure can't wait to get my hands on one or two of the 65 Comets when they come out !

JJ

Edited December 25, 2014 by Jeff Johnston

[Harry P.]

I thought Dave stated in this thread that the main reason (clearly not the only) for the Chinese manufacturing was he talks to one person, and they are a one stop shop. Everything is done in one place, through one guy.

Right.

And why is there no such setup here in the states? Because of the cost to create one! Once again... it's cheaper to do it in China than to do it here. There is no reason why a "one stop shop" like the one Dave describes in China can't exist here. The Chinese don't know any secrets that we don't know. In fact, much of what they know regarding high tech and such they got from us! If they can set up an operation like that, we can. But it would cost a fortune to do it here. So they don't do it here... they do it in China. And I don't mean Moebius specifically, I mean all those "American" companies that actually make their products overseas.

[FordRodnKustom]

[Tom Geiger]

Unless we can find funds to build our own factory with a prototyping operation, a tooling shop, production machinery from injection machine to vaccuum metalizing equipment and a print shop attached to it , then find a way for that facility to run three shifts a day 7 days a week, so it can pay for itself, we're unlikely to move the bulk of our production back to the US

Now, I send a set of references or a sculpt for a kit to my partner in China and at the end of the process they send me finished goods! This really is the only way we can make it work for us.

Harry and Jeff have it right in their posts above. But Dave's point that I've quoted here basically says that a company like Moebius (or Revell or Round 2) cannot afford to build and finance a factory operation, based on the volume of product that our market will absorb. The concept of outsourcing, whether domestic or international is based on buying the resources, just for the time needed to produce your product. That's what makes model kits feasible in today's market. The vendor in China that they employ not only produces Moebius products, but has other clients that fill it's schedules and make it's venture profitable. And that is a whole 'nuther business!

[Craig Irwin]

Remember this, the model companys don't make one thing that anyone HAS to have, when they get so bad that no one wants them the market will be gone.

[Tom Geiger]

Remember this, the model companys don't make one thing that anyone HAS to have, when they get so bad that no one wants them the market will be gone.

Correct. Many years ago there was a lot of concern for the major model companies. Learning Curve had AMT etal on the sales block, and fear was that they'd give it up and scrap all the tooling. Same with Revell / Monogram with the crayon folks. As everyone was crying that the sky was falling, I wrote an editorial that IF there was a market for models, some smaller and nimbler companies... those smart enough to work to today's market, demand and numbers would emerge to fill that void.

And what happened? Just that! Both R/M and the AMT / MPC etal were sold to companies that really understand the market and have learned to focus on the realities of this market. Smaller companies like Moebius and a few new ones like ICM that look promising, have just come out of nowhere.

As Dave said, the big company with a wing filled with design folks went the way of 500,000 kit runs. As he described Moebius, that is the model for operating in today's market. Plain and simple.

[W-409]

Seems to me his answers address the whole thing, some of you just refuse to believe or understand what he is saying. My gosh, this IS just a hobby you know. If YOU think you can make a perfect model, then for pete's sake start a model company and make them!!.

An excellent post, I agree completely !

[bill_rules]

^^^^ what Tom said!!!!!!

[vamach1]

I'll throw this thought out there. I have a lot of Diecast models (Franklin Mint, GMP, Danbury) and they do subject matters that no model company has done (e.g. 67-68 Mustang convertible) and they seem to get it right. have lots of details you almost never see in a plastic kit, and figuring in the cost of the metal, painting and assembly the cost does not seem that outrageous given the quality. I know these companies are not in the kit business but what if they did a plastic body and kept all the other parts of the model and offered them in kit form. It would not even bother me if I had to use screws and glue but I could build a model int he color I wanted and perhaps could swap engines, etc. If you have ever tried to "disassemble" a diecast model you essentially destroy it given many parts are super glued. I also realize the diecast models are engineered to be assembled differently than an all plastic model but it would be really neat to see some subject matter than has only be done by the Diecast companies to be done in a traditional all plastic kit.