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Vietnam Vet67

Next Generation NASCAR testing at Charlotte

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Cars were 3 seconds faster on the road course than this years cars but were only running 650 HP engines instead of the 750 HP used this year.

Cars sound like they are running 180 degree headers;

 

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Interesting.

So they're running significantly faster with less hp? 

How are the new cars differing from the current cars to make that kind of difference? I'm suspecting suspension tweaks which would help get the power to the ground and keep in there. Are the new cars lighter? Is the aero that much improved? I'm seeing underbody splitters, kind of like in DTM cars. 

I don't know a lot about NASCAR, so am genuinely curious about the set up.

Also got far more interested when you mentioned road courses, as opposed to oval tracks. 

 

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I've been into NASCAR since I went to a race with Dad at Riverside 1965.

I have held a NASCAR sponsor license.

But this car is just a 2010 SCCA Trans Am series car without the opening door.  From all I have read the car uses many of the same components. If they just want to copy another series that's fine.....but not 'ground breaking'. F1 stayed with the 13 inch wheels for years to keep development down. I kinda wish NASCAR had stayed with the 15 inch wheels with 5 lugs.....tradition and made for longer pit stops. More chance for errors.  And the deal where teams can no longer build or modify the chassis and they are looking at a spec Chevy engine means NASCAR will go to the same place ASA did after they did the same. The first race with a spec Chevy engine will be the first race without a single Ford or however in it.....36 Camaros!!!!!Oh well.....

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I noticed the single lug wheels too. Thought the wheel design was an interesting departure for NASCAR, but didn't really think much about the nuts.

Is that really the format they're switching to? Spec engines from one supplier? I don't like that idea at all. Takes a significant portion of the competition out of the sport.

 

I'd like to see a race series where stock cars are actually based on stock cars. The BTCC is a prime example, and is absolutely awesome racing. My personal fav to watch. 

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5 hours ago, Dave Van said:

But this car is just a 2010 SCCA Trans Am series car without the opening door.

Thought the same thing.

 

5 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

The BTCC is a prime example, and is absolutely awesome racing. My personal fav to watch. 

Agreed, with Australian V8 Supercars a close 2nd.

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This is not the development I want to see in NASCAR racing, I think they will destroy the Cup series even more than they allready have done so far.
Nascar has done much the last 30-40 years to try to keep speeds down and the smaller 15 inch wheels restricts the size brakes they can use wich do just that, with larger wheels they can use larger brakes and go faster and brake harder and the lower profile tires generates higher corner speed as the sides flex less wich can be more dangerous when you loose grip and hit the wall with higher speed.
Single nut vs five nut wheels...well a five nut wheel takes longer to change and a manual jack also takes longer than air jacks wich also has been considered and it gets the pit stops more interesting at 12 seconds than a 2-5 second pit stop as more can go wrong as Dave said.
If they want to get more interest in the sport, keep it more back to basics, keep the 15 inch wheels they have today with larger profile tires, go back to production based engines instead of the non production special engines they use today, keep the H-pattern gear box and 9 Inch rear ends, and leave out as much exotic composite materials as possible.
Because if you want to keep costs down for the teams and also speed you can't do what they are considering to do as it will only benefit the teams with large budgets, and the Cup series will just be just another version of many other racing series as they will loose what's different and has been significant for NASCAR, and the changes they have done up to this date is more than enough and I would like them to back up rather than go more forward and deviate even more sfrom stock.
BTCC and Aussie V8 Supercar series are maybe more stock to the eye but the V8 Supercars also has a special developed non regular production engine, sequential gearbox, single nut large wheels with low profile tires, air jacks and so on and it seems like NASCAR would like to go the same route and do more similar cars but on ovals, rovals and road courses, and I don't like that as the V8 Supercars is allready there to fill that need.
So I'm not that keen on the planned changes.

As for the sound, I don't think it's 180 degree headers, the exhaust has one pipe on each side instead of both on the same side as it was before, so you hear one cylinder bank more than the other and a V8 with the exhaust out on each side of the car sounds a bit strange.

Edited by Force

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Nascar cares not one wit about tradition or keeping costs low... they're only interested in making more money.

After watching their core fan base drift away due to all the PC shenanigans, the vanilla-flavoured drivers (at least the ones that are in front of a camera), and the real lack of diversity among cars, they realized if they want to stay in the game, they'd better get some more fans. That's what this car is all about: new fans and more money.

I watched exactly two races this year - I was a guy who never missed one, nor did I miss many race-related Nascar shows - and can't really say that I've missed it.

I do like the sound of these cars , though. :)

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18 hours ago, Vietnam Vet67 said:

Cars were 3 seconds faster on the road course than this years cars but were only running 650 HP engines instead of the 750 HP used this year.

Cars sound like they are running 180 degree headers;

 

Current Cup cars have exhaust headers that are closely coupled to the engine before going directly under the car, meeting at a crossover pipe and exiting below the passenger’s door. The Next Gen car deviates from that layout; each bank of cylinders is now independent and the piping never goes under the vehicle. Instead of going straight back, the exhaust piping makes a turn towards the wheel well as it comes of the headers and goes behind the side skirt area before coming to an outlet on each side. The presence of vents on the side skirts—which are there to help release heat from the pipes behind them—confirm this

https://www.hagerty.com/media/motorsports/our-closest-look-yet-at-the-nascar-next-gen-prototype/

11 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

Interesting.

So they're running significantly faster with less hp? 

How are the new cars differing from the current cars to make that kind of difference? I'm suspecting suspension tweaks which would help get the power to the ground and keep in there. Are the new cars lighter? Is the aero that much improved? I'm seeing underbody splitters, kind of like in DTM cars. 

I don't know a lot about NASCAR, so am genuinely curious about the set up.

Also got far more interested when you mentioned road courses, as opposed to oval tracks. 

 

Ok the reason the they are running faster laps on the road course is the new car is running full IRS vs the truck trailing arms on the current cars.  The test car is running a rear defuser and flat underside panels , for weight, I don't recall if that info has been released but I think it will be a little bit lighter , you can read more here

https://www.hagerty.com/media/motorsports/our-closest-look-yet-at-the-nascar-next-gen-prototype/

11 hours ago, Dave Van said:

I've been into NASCAR since I went to a race with Dad at Riverside 1965.

I have held a NASCAR sponsor license.

But this car is just a 2010 SCCA Trans Am series car without the opening door.  From all I have read the car uses many of the same components. If they just want to copy another series that's fine.....but not 'ground breaking'. F1 stayed with the 13 inch wheels for years to keep development down. I kinda wish NASCAR had stayed with the 15 inch wheels with 5 lugs.....tradition and made for longer pit stops. More chance for errors.  And the deal where teams can no longer build or modify the chassis and they are looking at a spec Chevy engine means NASCAR will go to the same place ASA did after they did the same. The first race with a spec Chevy engine will be the first race without a single Ford or however in it.....36 Camaros!!!!!Oh well.....

I've been into NASCAR since the very early 90's and my dad took me to my first race in "97.

I was friends with a driver and got to attend races for free and the perks that went with it.

 

So, yeah, I sort of have to agree with you , that's really what it sounds like,  but you shouldnt be surprised, Jim France, the current CEO is also the Chairman for IMSA, AND, he owns the Action Express IMSA team, that built one of the two current Next Gen prototypes( RCR built the other one)  So yeah, its no surprise, Jim is moving the Cup Series to be more like IMSA.

There is not going to be a "spec Chevy engine" in the Cup Series, not going to happen, I am not sure where you got that info, but you need to put it back where ya found it because its not true.    If Ford and Toyota leave, the Cup Series is dead, and they will if NASCAR were to implement such a rule.

Correct, the teams will no longer be building the chassis, they will be purchasing them.

Yes, the Truck Series uses a "spec" Ilmor engine( which is based on Chevy block I believe). 

The switch to a single lug is because the the size of the new wheel,  it has to do with the force it puts on the lug studs,  the single stud handles the the force better, I am not 100% if I am explaining it correctly, I seen it explained a while back when it was announced.   I too am sad to see the switch to a single lug.

Edited by martinfan5

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I used to pay attention up until the 1990s when there was body shapes that at least resembled what was on the road.  But after they shafted Bill Simpson in the wake of Earnhardt's death I really lost interest.  Then they went to a silhouette series where every car was the same, differentiated only by stickers on the front and rear, and they tried to follow the NBA model making the players become the product.  Along with that they leaned on the drivers so much that  generic and vanilla became the order of the day.  Boring, not interesting, blah.  Now, if I watch any part of a race,  I haven't watched an entire race in better than 8-9 years, its the first 20 laps and the last 20 laps.  Sad because I could watch V8 Supercars all day long.

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I’m curious to see how this works out, nothing wrong with bringing the cars into the 1990’s, tech wise, after all.  Now if they’d just start putting production style bodies on them again...........

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Martin Truex said it had bigger tires, more gears and naturally it went faster. He also said there was still room for improvement. 

It certainly is a much better car for road courses with independent suspension too. And naturally there are more road course races next year.   Which I like.
 
Exhaust is split but NO H-Pipe. Single lug wheels and sequential gear box. Tires are 18" instead of 15".
 
NO spec engine in Cup series.
Edited by Vietnam Vet67

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11 hours ago, martinfan5 said:

 

There is not going to be a "spec Chevy engine" in the Cup Series, not going to happen, I am not sure where you got that info, but you need to put it back where ya found it because its not true.    If Ford and Toyota leave, the Cup Series is dead, and they will if NASCAR were to implement such a rule.

Correct, the teams will no longer be building the chassis, they will be purchasing them.

Yes, the Truck Series uses a "spec" Ilmor engine( which is based on Chevy block I believe). 

The switch to a single lug is because the the size of the new wheel,  it has to do with the force it puts on the lug studs,  the single stud handles the the force better, I am not 100% if I am explaining it correctly, I seen it explained a while back when it was announced.   I too am sad to see the switch to a single lug.

A spec engine purposed came directly from NASCAR.  When the idea came up Ford, I know, said that would end their stay in NASCAR.....pretty sure Toyota did same.....I just do not have any connections to Toyota. While you are correct it will not happen in 2022-23 if is NOT 100% off the table.

I know the single lug goes with the new wheels. I am saying KEEP the current wheel set up. Cup cars do not NEED alloy 18 wheels and the using of 15 5 lug creates a lot of factors that IMHO only help the racing.  The ancient current wheel/tire/brake combo bring out the best in drivers and pit crews. 

A spec chassis will also take away much of the innovation that teams worked hard to get an advantage. When F1 goes to a spec chassis I'll buy in. 

Again all just a old mans opinion!  

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I have been a NASCAR fan since I sat in the back seat of my uncle's new '58 Oldsmobile and listened to the '58 Southern 500 on the AM radio.  I also held a Grand National (remember them?) Mechanics license for two years, then the military got in the way.  Since "Big Bill" passed I have watched the series go downhill.  I had a friend who went to a salvage yard bought body parts to put together a car, built an engine in his basement and went racing; he was not a front runner, but he had fun.  When the stock appearing bodies went away, the sport itself went away.  If I want to watch IMSA, F1 or any other form of 'exotic' racing I will watch it, but I do not expect that from an organization that has "Stock Car" in their moniker.  In the late 90's I heard the late Dale Earnhardt on a local radio station prior to the October Charlotte race say what NASCAR needed was "one body style, and let the teams build the engines and chassis to suit the driver".  He has got part of his wish, the one body has been here for too many years. R.I.P. NASCAR.

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Been watching the sport since 87, been a shame watching things go downhill since 2004 and unfortunately I don't see the new car helping and with the former Brian France yes men who are in charge that makes things worse. When a driver who wins 9 times in a season and dominates the year doesn't have a chance to win the championship then that should be a sign that things need to change but we'll keep getting the we like what we're seeing line the fans have heard so many times now.

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Still not buying it.......this guy says what I called an issue. ZERO innovation by teams.....everyone gets a trophy thinking......ALL teams will be the same. Right.....Taking away skill sets from racing does not work. (pit crews, chassis guys and body guys...all gone ...now parts installers.) Why is F1 still the #1 motorsport. I did not like this year with MB so strong....but like Ferrari a few years back....someone will find something and knock them off. Not going to happen in CUP any longer. 

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We’re talking NASCAR here Dave, the spirit of Smokey Yunick will remain strong there for years to come and there will still be room to find where to find something not in the rule books to do.

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I'm still not so sure that I will like the new cars, I prefer them as they were or even go back a few decades, but that will never happen.
I think the new cars will be more like copys of cars from other racing series and will loose what has been genuine and specific for NASCAR...that I don't like.

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Sorry generic cars don't cut it my book. A body should be powered by that manufacturers engine. In my opinion  corporate sponsorship has been a blessing and a curse. Its also messed up pro stock in drag racing. If it says stock it needs to look like a stock version and powered by an engine of the body styles manufacturer.  Besides that it should be heads up racing. No countdowns.  Run all the races and the winner is the winner. 

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4 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Sorry generic cars don't cut it in my book. A body should be powered by that manufacturers engine. In my opinion  corporate sponsorship has been a blessing and a curse. Its also messed up pro stock in drag racing. If it says stock it needs to look like a stock version and powered by an engine of the body styles manufacturer.  Besides that, it should be heads up racing. No countdowns.  Run all the races and the winner is the winner. 

 

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9 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Sorry generic cars don't cut it my book. A body should be powered by that manufacturers engine. In my opinion  corporate sponsorship has been a blessing and a curse. Its also messed up pro stock in drag racing. If it says stock it needs to look like a stock version and powered by an engine of the body styles manufacturer.  Besides that it should be heads up racing. No countdowns.  Run all the races and the winner is the winner. 

I can only agree with that, and add that I like it to be a regular production based engine and not the special developed engines they use today wich can't be bought as an option in any car, that goes for both NASCAR and Pro Stock.

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Take the front air dam off of the ground so air goes under the car and brings back mechanical grip. Everything this new car is doing is creating higher corner speeds which we all know means single file follow the leader racing. They will end up adding more segments to bunch the cars up more.   

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On 11/24/2020 at 4:00 PM, Force said:

I can only agree with that, and add that I like it to be a regular production based engine and not the special developed engines they use today wich can't be bought as an option in any car, that goes for both NASCAR and Pro Stock.

What you guys forget was that NASCAR was dragged into all this back in 1980's when the manufacturers switched to front wheel drive on the majority of their cars. NOBODY was going to watch 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder production cars with plastic front and rear fascias race anywhere. They couldn't keep racing 1970's type cars because they were out of production and no manufacturer was going to back a series like that. The only rear wheel drive production cars back then were the 4 door luxury cars and that wasn't going to happen. They did what they had to do to keep the series afloat and by the 1990's Nascar racing reached it's peak.

As far as engine technology goes I worked at Dodge Motorsports from 1966 to 2007. All the manufacturers had special built race engine parts made for their cars and a lot of those parts were not available to the public. When we at Dodge got back in 2001 we had to design and build an engine that was built to Nascar specs since none of our current V8's back then would work. Same thing when Toyota got back in. 

And as far as keeping costs down technology costs money. Back in the 1960's and early 1970's teams didn't have their own engine dynos or wind tunnels etc. They depended on the manufacturers to help them out. That has all changed now. And besides everybody is going to do what ever it takes to win  no matter what series you run. Back in 1978 our goal at Dodge was 600 HP at 7200 RPM for the Daytona 500 and we made that goal. By 2012 when Nascar switched to fuel injection we were making over 900 HP  at 9500 RPM still using the same displacement (355") and the same carburetor (Holley 4150). That extra 300 HP came from exotic materials in the valve train so the engine would spin higher, hours and hours of time on the air flow benches developing new intake and exhaust port configurations, and the same thing for camshaft development and dry sump oil systems. And gentlemen, all that development costs money. And he who has the most money wins. Look no further than Mercedes in Formula One.

You want to talk about change in racing. Look no further than Top Fuel Dragsters. They don't run the quarter mile anymore.............they only run 1000 feet instead of 1320 feet. The engines make anywhere from 10,000 to 15,000 HP depending whose numbers you believe. They run around 3 seconds and 340 mph in that 1000 feet. If they ran the whole quarter mile just think what their top speed would be! The sanctioning bodies are try to keep the cars and drivers safe and still make the racing competitive.

 

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Well today it's possible to do a NASCAR Cup or Pro Stock engine based on the production V8 engines available right now, rules might have to be changed but it's for sure possible if you want to do it.
NASCAR Cup has a 358 cui limit but that's maximum so the modern Chevy LS or Ford Modular can fit that requirement, Toyota also has a V8 from the Tundra that can work, but as I say, the rules have to change as only pushrod engines are allowed as it is now.
The engines they use today, the Chevy R7 developed and built by Richard Childress Racing and Hendrick Motor Sports, the Ford FR-9 by Roush-Yates and the TRD V8 by Toyota Racing Development are developed for NASCAR racing and NASCAR racing only and can't be bought in any car even if you want to, and if you want it to be cheaper for the teams and fill the field, and safer for the drivers (wich means lower speeds) you most likely have go go back a few steps instead of loosen the rules further and allow more special equipment which is the way NASCAR is going with the next generation cars, they tried before with the COT cars but that didn't catch on that well and the cars they have used from then up to today is the result of that as the spectators wanted to see more stock appearing cars than what the COT cars was.
The car manufacturers did special engines for racing (and cars) before but they were required by the rules to be available to buy at the dealer before they were accepted...there is no such rule in NASCAR today.
It doesn't matter if the chassis technology is old or what gearboxes or rear ends or wheels they use, it's the same for everybody and what they have today works just fine and must be cheaper than what they will have in the next generation cars,  the teams must have plentiful of the older stuff but they have to get everything new and start from scratch if they go the direction they are thinking about with the next generation cars.

Same goes for the engine they use in NHRA Pro Stock today wich is a class bound to die if nothing drastic is done as it's too expensive and the cars are far from what you can buy at the dealers, the bodies are massaged way too much and most of the racers use the Pro Stock Camaro body wich only slightly resembles the car it's supposed to be as it's narrower, lower and longer.
The dispacement limit in the NHRA Pro Stock class has been 500 cui since the early 80's but there has not been any regular production V8 engine with 500 cui for many many years and such engine can't be ordered in any car, the GM DRCE engine is developed for Pro Stock drag racing and is not based on anything as all measurements like bore spacing, deck hight and such are changed and are far from the regular Chevy big block it once originated from.
NHRA skipped the rule that the engine has to follow car manufacturer a couple of years ago and the rpm limit killed the Mopar and Ford engines as they did not make enough power at the lower rpm's to be competitive, so the GM DRCE is the only engine used today in Pro Stock regardless of car make...not that exciting if you ask me.
So they could easily change the specs and use the regular production engines as a base, go back to production based bodies like they were at the beginning when the Pro Stock class started up to the 90's with slight modifications,  maybe then the car manufacturers will get interested again as they are all over the Factory Stock and Factory Super Stock classes with the Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers, and the spectator interest will most likely also be higher as well as the cars will more be like what they can buy from the dealer, and the Factory Stock and Factory Super Stock classes are more popular than Pro Stock today.

All I can say is if you deviate too much from what it originally was and loosen rules and let things go too far it will get more expensive and there will be less competitors in the particular class or series, the spectators and the manufacturers will loose interest as the race cars are far from what they are supposed to be, so it's not a good situation.

The Top Fuel dragsters go faster today at 1000 feet than they did at the quarter mile before the change.
If the top fuel dragsters go 3 seconds at 340 mph or 4 seconds at 280 mph in 1000 feet doesn't matter that much, it's not necessary for them to go any quicker or faster as it's not that safe to do so without doing something to the tracks, and there has been thoughts of how to slow them down for several years, but the racing will still be competitive regardless of what they do as the rules are the same for everybody.

Edited by Force

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I agree. Any category that says stock needs to be reasonably stock. Generic cars with stickers to define the manufactuer miss the point. 

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