JoHan fall release

[Brian Austin]

There was a bunch of unassembled '55 and '56 Pontiacs for sale at NNLEast several years ago along with the Rambler wagons.  AMT did a '57 but I'm sure we'll never see that one again.

 

It does seem interesting that this interior is offered when there are other JoHan models without interiors.

 

For the Pontiac chassis, I recommend Revell's '50 Olds.  The frame is similar between the two, though IIRC suspension designs differed.  Perhaps the "new tool" AMT '57 Chevy floorpan will work though the trunk floor differs between makes.

[Motor City]

SMP had the '57 contract and made the Pontiac Star Chief as a 4-door hardtop and convertible.  

Round2's business model is to primarily restore or recreate lost tooling for AMT and MPC models, and they have obtained licensing from many manufacturers.  It wouldn't be a stretch for them to recreate Jo-Han models from existing kits through 3D modeling.  It would be capital intensive to do it and they would also have to receive licensing rights from Okey Spaulding and possibly some other unknown entity.  It's apparent that Okey doesn't have the means to do this.   

Edited March 30, 2022 by Motor City

[Mark]

I'm not seeing where Round 2 would have to get licensing, permission, or whatever from Okey in order to tool a new kit of any subject matter previously offered by Jo-Han.  Even if the parts breakdown were similar between the two.

[Motor City]

3 hours ago, Mark said:

I'm not seeing where Round 2 would have to get licensing, permission, or whatever from Okey in order to tool a new kit of any subject matter previously offered by Jo-Han.  Even if the parts breakdown were similar between the two.

What I referred to was using existing Jo-Han kits to recreate the tooling.  Creating all-new kits of some cars that also had been made by Jo-Han is a whole different matter and wouldn't require permission of anyone other than the auto companies. 

[Justin Porter]

3 hours ago, Mark said:

I'm not seeing where Round 2 would have to get licensing, permission, or whatever from Okey in order to tool a new kit of any subject matter previously offered by Jo-Han.  Even if the parts breakdown were similar between the two.

It's not a matter of permission from Johan at all. 

Round 2 wouldn't need the licensing from Johan because they already have operational licensing from Stellantis, General Motors, and Ford Motor Company. A company like Atlantis that currently has only the General Motors licensing is in IP negotiation with Stellantis so that they have the IP rights to release Stellantis product based kits. On the other hand, if Johan had a legacy IP contract with Stellantis or one of its forebears, purchasing Johan becomes a potentially cheaper end run around those IP negotiations. 

The Pegasus buyout of Moebius was motivated by EXACTLY this sort of IP license possession on the sci-fi side. But, if Spaulding doesn't currently hold any usable IP rights then all he has is worthless old tooling that should be replaced by something modern.

[Mark]

I'd seriously doubt anyone is going to try to purchase whatever might be left of Jo-Han.  

I was set up as a vendor next to the AMT/Ertl display at Toledo for a couple of years.  Their personnel were fielding all sorts of questions, including about whether or not they'd be interested in Jo-Han (seeing as how they'd acquired MPC a couple of years prior).  The answers ranged from "we looked at that stuff, we can just pick the better subject matter and just do new kits ourselves", to "how many '56 Plymouth kits would we sell, especially without engines?".

If anyone really wanted to scan/tweak a Jo-Han kit, they'd do it.  It's not like the current owner has endless resources available to take any sort of action. 

There are only X number of ways to design a model car kit.  Those who tried to do it differently (cough, Trumpeter, cough) haven't done so well.  Who's to say another company couldn't design a new kit by copying the best, and designing the rest?

[Justin Porter]

6 minutes ago, Mark said:

I'd seriously doubt anyone is going to try to purchase whatever might be left of Jo-Han.  

I was set up as a vendor next to the AMT/Ertl display at Toledo for a couple of years.  Their personnel were fielding all sorts of questions, including about whether or not they'd be interested in Jo-Han (seeing as how they'd acquired MPC a couple of years prior).  The answers ranged from "we looked at that stuff, we can just pick the better subject matter and just do new kits ourselves", to "how many '56 Plymouth kits would we sell, especially without engines?".

If anyone really wanted to scan/tweak a Jo-Han kit, they'd do it.  It's not like the current owner has endless resources available to take any sort of action. 

There are only X number of ways to design a model car kit.  Those who tried to do it differently (cough, Trumpeter, cough) haven't done so well.  Who's to say another company couldn't design a new kit by copying the best, and designing the rest?

My point is that unless they have standing IP rights that another company does not have and cannot acquire more cheaply through negotiations (as in my Atlantis example) then Johan has absolutely NOTHING OF VALUE and no one should consider buying them. 

A sufficiently motivated individual who had the IP licensing rights from Stellantis could contract T-Rex Studios (the independent kit design firm utilized by Meng, Takom, and a slew of others) and have the CAD of the kit within three months, and test shots in 9 especially since something along the lines of a '68 AMX or a '70 Superbird is significantly less complicated than a full interior King Tiger. You don't need a bloody thing from Johan in the world of modern kit development. The only possibly beneficial thing is if they offer a cheaper way to get the license to produce domestic car kits than to negotiate a new licensing deal with the manufacturers themselves.

[Dave Van]

There is some JoHan tooling out there that could be made viable. One that we looked at hard was the Superbird. It was missing inserts that would need to be tooled.....but done as a 3 in 1 stock, drag and NASCAR could be profitable IMHO ONLY. Many others are less profitable....maybe....

[Luc Janssens]

5 hours ago, Mark said:

I'm not seeing where Round 2 would have to get licensing, permission, or whatever from Okey in order to tool a new kit of any subject matter previously offered by Jo-Han.  Even if the parts breakdown were similar between the two.

Then pronto get them on the phone to copy some Plymouth GTX/Roadrunner bodies

 

[Luc Janssens]

Just now, Luc Janssens said:

Then pronto get them on the phone to copy some Plymouth GTX/Roadrunner bodies

 

Seriously.....what Jo-Han kits/designs other then the ones I mentioned would be viable....

Gentlemen, put your thinking cap's on

 

[Rusty92]

Never built a JoHan kit, it would be cool to purchase a re-issue if that ever happened. As it stands now, I always pass on the kits I see for sale at shows, always too pricey for me. I’ll prob never get the chance. 

[keyser]

People have looked at what’s there. Incomplete, and my guess is pricing similar to a rotting pile of cars that owner saw Mecum sales, figured same for his. No offense to Okie, but things don’t appreciate well if not useful. 
Four-door versions of very dead brands not excitement builders. 30yo builders barely were exposed to Pontiac, AMC, Plymouth, or Olds at all. 
A 3D printed interior for a 66yo kit that isn’t really available, is not going to do much. 
68 DeVille, Hearse/Ambulance, AMX, 69 RR, Superbird, all would be first picks over a 4 door anything. I don’t see a business plan out of this, haven’t ever seen one in decades. JH remains are not a retirement goldmine. 
 

[SfanGoch]

It was mentioned in General Discussions some years back that Johan used injection molding equipment which wasn't compatible with the long standardized machinery used by the rest of the manufacturers. The Johan kits released by AMT, etc. were produced by Johan for re-boxing under the other companies' labels and didn't require the transfer of molds. Okey can't make use of the molds because the oddball injection molding equipment no longer exists. So, the only thing accomplished by buying up whatever remains of the Johan toolings is that the new owner will have a nice selection of doorstops.

[Dave Van]

Some JoHan tooling is not owned by Okey.........some of what we looked at was a 3rd party and a few were owned by Okey. I don't think this is a secret in the industry.......

[keyser]

6 minutes ago, Dave Van said:

Some JoHan tooling is not owned by Okey.........some of what we looked at was a 3rd party and a few were owned by Okey. I don't think this is a secret in the industry.......

True Dave. But lookers and no buyers never a good sign. Doubt any transferable licensing either. Bummer. TD thing is mess too. Hope y’all good btw
 

[stavanzer]

I'd start out with the 4 Door Plymouth Police Car. Given the love for Police Cars in General and that kit in particular, I can see it being viable. The Hangup is, of course, Stellantis and permission thereof.  That and the Superbird would be a good start IMHO, and would simplify permissions.

Never gonna happen, but nice to dream.

[Motor City]

I understand Round2 has quite an inventory of old kits that can be used for reference in restoring or modifying the old AMT and MPC tooling. 

As far as Jo-Han subject matter, I doubt if many people under 60 would be interested in the '67-'68 Imperial, '57-'61 New Yorker, '62-'68 Chrysler 300, '55-'60 DeSoto, '55-61 Belvedere and Fury, the '58-61 Dodge, '56-'62 98 and Super 88, and '58-'62 Fleetwood. 

I think the '63-'70 Coupe deVille might have a few candidates, and the '63 Olds Starfire, and '66-'67 Toronado.  The '68-'72 442, '71-'76 Eldorado, and '69-'70 Road Runner and GTX could be tooled in hardtop and convertible variations.  But it would probably make more sense for a model company to start from scratch since the Jo-Han models typically have molded-in exhaust and underhood components that today's modelers frown upon.   

[SfanGoch]

16 minutes ago, Motor City said:

But it would probably make more sense for a model company to start from scratch since the Jo-Han models typically have molded-in exhaust and underhood components that today's modelers frown upon.   

Have you looked at the chassis of the Round2 '64 Cutlass, among others?

[1972coronet]

The 1968 Fury I Pursuit would be slick. T'hell with Stugotless (or whatever their name is) -- just leave any and all Plymouth names off of marketing.

Broom handle to a hornets' nest: the issued-under-Testors-branding 1970 Pro Stock Barracuda, 1970-ish Olds 4-4-2, 1970 AMX, and 1969 S/C Rambler tooling? 

[Stef]

Me personally, I would buy every single Johan that comes back out. Growing up, I had a bunch of 'em, including the Comet, Marlin, Starfire, Turbine, Challenger Funny Car, 69 Road Runner, AMX, and 62 and 63 Fury kits. I want 'em all, and more more more.

We could seriously start up a crowdsource thing. Get the cash, get the rights, get the tools, get the right people on board. Figure out what is most popular, what is most feasible, what is most lucrative, and take it from there. Whether repairing old tech, and/or building new tech, we can do whatever it takes to get these kits back into the hands of those who most want 'em.

Few young people even know about Johan kits.

Get a couple on HPIGuy's channel, then every builder on the planet will want 'em, too.

 

[SfanGoch]

Do you mean crowdsourcing or crowdfunding? Two different things.

The cost to replicate the non-standard injection molding equipment which would accept Johan molds would be prohibitively expensive. That, in itself, would put the kibosh on that idea. It's not financially viable to drop large amounts of money to build injection molding equipment which would be a one-trick pony because it would be incompatible with any other molds. That's one of the reasons other kt manufacturers wouldn't/won't touch them.

Figuring out which are most popular, feasible and lucrative doesn't really matter since, in all likelihood, any that fit those parameters no longer exist. There are pitifully few complete Johan molds/toolings still in existence. Most were allegedly stolen and scrapped, for the value of the berrylium copper in them, scavenged by former employees who weren't paid when the company closed.

[Stef]

47 minutes ago, SfanGoch said:

...crowdsourcing or crowdfunding...

The cost to replicate... scavenged by former employees who weren't paid when the company closed.

It will probably take a bit of both, crowdsourcing and crowdfunding, to make this happen. Sweat equity, and cold hard cash.

Thanks for your perspective, Joe. There's GOTTA be a way to make this stuff work. I'll be the first in line.

[Motor City]

3 hours ago, SfanGoch said:

Have you looked at the chassis of the Round2 '64 Cutlass, among others?

not lately, but I have the original; lots of complaints on this forum about the old kits with their molded-in exhaust systems, etc. 

[Tabbysdaddy]

4 hours ago, Motor City said:

As far as Jo-Han subject matter, I doubt if many people under 60 would be interested in the '67-'68 Imperial, '57-'61 New Yorker, '62-'68 Chrysler 300, '55-'60 DeSoto, '55-61 Belvedere and Fury, the '58-61 Dodge, '56-'62 98 and Super 88, and '58-'62 Fleetwood. 

I think the '63-'70 Coupe deVille might have a few candidates, and the '63 Olds Starfire, and '66-'67 Toronado.  The '68-'72 442, '71-'76 Eldorado, and '69-'70 Road Runner and GTX could be tooled in hardtop and convertible variations.  But it would probably make more sense for a model company to start from scratch since the Jo-Han models typically have molded-in exhaust and underhood components that today's modelers frown upon.   

I would have to agree with this except for the '63 Olds Starfire. 

[niteowl7710]

This is the same fruitless circular argument that goes on every time this subject comes up. JoHan is dead, it doesn't feasibly exist in any way, shape, or form and there's no way to resurrect it short of buying the trade dress and copyrights of the name off Okey and then sinking 10s of millions of dollars unto recreating a catalog of odd 60s kits using 2022 technology. 

Because Okey has a pile of parts and some pieces of tooling. Seville took him on a ride of his own making and he clearly had no idea what he was actually buying. Even the kits he "released" (Fury Police car, Rambler, etc) were made from cobbled together NoS over runs. He has to the best of anyone's knowledge never applied plastic to a single piece of tooling he owns because it's not complete (ergo it won't close correctly in the first place), nor does a machine exist in which to mount whatever is left over to even attempt hanger shots of it.

The example of Round2 creating new bodies or pieces for old kits doesn't apply here because Round2 has the whole of the old tooling, plus a way to actually use it. There's no reasonable way to do that with what is left of the JoHan tooling that wouldn't make a completely new piece of tooling the cheaper option. There are a handful of subjects like the AMX that probably deserve that someone does a new kit of them, but the majority is lost to history because you'll never show me a feasible plan to sell 30k Oldsmobile Station wagons.