Bare metal foil small writing

[Ctmodeler]

Hey guys

You guys all build some spectacular models . I was wondering how the heck you are able to bare metal foil really small writing like on trunk lids or fenders, etc ? I can't even imagine how you can manage that. Can someone please give me a quick run down on it ? As always thanks so much ! You guys are the best !!

Ken

[StevenGuthmiller]

This topic has been talked about numerous times on the forum, but the basic answer is what has been come to be known as the "foil under paint" technique and is basically the practice of foiling the script before the paint is applied and then cleaning the paint from the surface of the script after the paint has dried.

There are numerous ways of accomplishing this.

I apply the foil to the script before the final color coat and then clean the paint from the script with a tooth pick dipped in small amount of lacquer thinner.

 

That's the short version anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited May 4, 2020 by StevenGuthmiller

[Ctmodeler]

Thanks Steve. Since there's no way to foil the script perfectly cause it's so small, what do you do about any left over foil that's on the car under the paint and not on the script ? Thank you very much man

[Tom Geiger]

Some folks think you can just slap a big piece of foil on the car and the edges magically disappear under the paint. It isn’t so.

With this method think of it as foiling the script and letting the paint fill in the gaps between and inside the letters.

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, Ctmodeler said:

Thanks Steve. Since there's no way to foil the script perfectly cause it's so small, what do you do about any left over foil that's on the car under the paint and not on the script ? Thank you very much man

That's the point of this method.

It doesn't have to be perfect, just as close as you can.

The paint will cover the remainder.

 

2 hours ago, Tom Geiger said:

Some folks think you can just slap a big piece of foil on the car and the edges magically disappear under the paint. It isn’t so.

With this method think of it as foiling the script and letting the paint fill in the gaps between and inside the letters.

This is exactly to the point.

Just don't put a big piece of foil over the whole script and leave it.

Trim as close as you can and the paint will cover the areas immediately around and within the script.

 

As you can tell from the '60 Mercury script I posted above, there is no way that the foil could be trimmed perfectly around it either, but after painting, there is no way of telling.

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited May 4, 2020 by StevenGuthmiller

[JBucci]

I don't use foil. I use the eraser on the end of a pencil as a rubber stamp with Testors chrome enamel paint.

[Fat Brian]

Steve's method yields the best looking results by far but there are other options for us mere mortals. Silver Sharpies and Molotow pens can give good results with some practice and easily wipe off with alcohol if you need to try again. Be careful with the alcohol around some paints though, test it before going after a visible area.

[Chariots of Fire]

I've done the foil under paint a number of times.  It works.  Cut the foil as close to the raised image as best you can with a new sharp Xacto blade.  Make sure it is burnished down real good.  It's true that the paint will hide the edges as it tends to collect some at the script.  Take your time removing the paint.  Remember you are basically just removing the surface and not right down to every little crevice.  A couple of tries and the results will quickly show up nicely.

[Snake45]

5 hours ago, Fat Brian said:

Steve's method yields the best looking results by far but there are other options for us mere mortals. Silver Sharpies and Molotow pens can give good results with some practice and easily wipe off with alcohol if you need to try again. Be careful with the alcohol around some paints though, test it before going after a visible area.

No one on here loves the Silver Sharpie more than me, and I dig the Molotow too, but they just won't work for very fine nameplates. (GREAT for other stuff, though.)

I use Steve's foil-under-paint technique, with one modification: I apply the foil to the bare plastic, before the first primer is applied. I think my way has three slight advantages: It preserves maximum detail. The foil sticks to clean bare plastic better than it does to flat primer paint. And the primer is another coat of paint that helps "bury" the edges and make them invisible. But Steve's way works very well for him, and mine does for me. Diff'rent strokes, and all that. 

The foiled script gets uncovered during my normal color-sanding and polish-out routine. So far I've never had to resort to using a chemical to expose it. 

I'll also do this with SOME larger emblems, and then mask them with a drop of Elmer's Glue on a toothpick. This is a handy technique when the emblem doesn't stand very tall on the surface. If I think the emblem will stand up to my paint routine, I'll just do it with my beloved Silver Sharpie at the end. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

6 hours ago, Snake45 said:

I use Steve's foil-under-paint technique, with one modification: I apply the foil to the bare plastic, before the first primer is applied. I think my way has three slight advantages: It preserves maximum detail. The foil sticks to clean bare plastic better than it does to flat primer paint. And the primer is another coat of paint that helps "bury" the edges and make them invisible. But Steve's way works very well for him, and mine does for me. Diff'rent strokes, and all that.

There are advantages and disadvantages to every technique.

A lot of the success or failure of this technique rides on your painting regimen.

 

My paint jobs consist of multiple primer and color coats making applying the foil early in the process, as you do Snake, completely impractical.

Burying the foil under that much paint would make removing it difficult regardless of the method.

If you are getting by with a coat or 2 of primer and paint, there will be no problem applying the foil whenever you prefer and removing the paint with whatever method you desire.

 

With the foil adhesion question, my method calls for applying the foil to the second to last color coat, not to the primer, and the covering detail issue is also directly related to your particular painting procedure, greatly depending on the type of paint used and how much of it per coat.

I routinely apply as many as 5 primer coats, followed by up to 3 or 4 color coats before applying the foil, with no hide issues, even with the finest scripts.

 

Some disadvantages to the method Snake uses include the possibility of a very fine line of primer being exposed around the perimeter of the script when the paint is removed.

I've had this happen and it can be even more obvious with a white primer.

Also, if you are using a sanding or polishing method for removing the paint from the foil, it is entirely possible to polish through the foil back down to the primer or plastic. (had this happen as well)

 

 

Sorry Snake.

Not trying to be antagonistic, but as long as we're talking pros and cons, I thought it beneficial to hear both sides ...............

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Snake45]

11 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

There are advantages and disadvantages to every technique.

A lot of the success or failure of this technique rides on your painting regimen.

 

My paint jobs consist of multiple primer and color coats making applying the foil early in the process, as you do Snake, completely impractical.

Burying the foil under that much paint would make removing it difficult regardless of the method.

If you are getting by with a coat or 2 of primer and paint, there will be no problem applying the foil whenever you prefer and removing the paint with whatever method you desire.

 

With the foil adhesion question, my method calls for applying the foil to the second to last color coat, not to the primer, and the covering detail issue is also directly related to your particular painting procedure, greatly depending on the type of paint used and how much of it per coat.

I routinely apply as many as 5 primer coats, followed by up to 3 or 4 color coats before applying the foil, with no hide issues, even with the finest scripts.

 

Some disadvantages to the method Snake uses include the possibility of a very fine line of primer being exposed around the perimeter of the script when the paint is removed.

I've had this happen and it can be even more obvious with a white primer.

Also, if you are using a sanding or polishing method for removing the paint from the foil, it is entirely possible to polish through the foil back down to the primer or plastic. (had this happen as well)

 

Sorry Snake.

Not trying to be antagonistic, but as long as we're talking pros and cons, I thought it beneficial to hear both sides ...............

 

Steve

No problem, Steve. It's great to see this technique discussed in a completely scientific and academic way. 

I've only used the trick a few times and don't have nearly your experience (or skill), I'm just stating what has worked for me. 

On my '68 Vette, which I've shown here several times, I shot one coat of black primer, three coats of Testor One Coat Lacquer, and two or three coats of Testor Wet Look Clear, which is IMHO a bit thick. I color-sanded the latter with #1500 (IIRC) wet, and stopped sanding when I got down to the black primer on the scripts. From there, the polish (Wright's Silver Cream) took off the primer as it polished the surrounding paint, leaving the lettering nice and shiny. I wasn't worried about polishing through the foil, but I wasn't using Bare Metal, I used thin generic kitchen foil (with Miro Foil Adhesive). The kitchen foil isn't as thick as name-brand stuff like Reynolds Wrap, but it is thicker than BMF, and I actually like it for this reason. I can't see any "primer line" under an Opti-Visor and I'd challenge anyone to see one with with naked eye or normal corrective eyeglasses. 

I used the same regimen on a '66 Chevelle, with similar results. But as I said, I haven't used it nearly as much as you have, though I'm definitely planning to do it on a '65 Chevelle I have coming up. 

Your way works well for you. So far my way has worked well for me. There are probably other entirely workable variations, too. There are many paths to the top of the mountain! Model on! 

[Mike999]

Now this is timely!  I have a '60 Falcon resin body driving me crazy.  The problem is the letters F-O-R-D on the hood and F-A-L-C-O-N on the back.

First I tried using a single piece of BMF to cover the letters, on the bare resin.  I thought the combo of primer and paint might cover the edges. Nope, they stood out like a sore thumb. Stripped the body and started over.

Next I tried tiny individual pieces of BMF.  They just don't have a big enough adhesive surface, even when I applied a dot of white glue and burnished the letter down hard.  

I'm about to give up, paint the thing and use Molotow on the chrome.  Or does somebody have a BMF solution?

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

3 hours ago, Mike999 said:

Now this is timely!  I have a '60 Falcon resin body driving me crazy.  The problem is the letters F-O-R-D on the hood and F-A-L-C-O-N on the back.

First I tried using a single piece of BMF to cover the letters, on the bare resin.  I thought the combo of primer and paint might cover the edges. Nope, they stood out like a sore thumb. Stripped the body and started over.

Next I tried tiny individual pieces of BMF.  They just don't have a big enough adhesive surface, even when I applied a dot of white glue and burnished the letter down hard.  

I'm about to give up, paint the thing and use Molotow on the chrome.  Or does somebody have a BMF solution?

 

I use exactly the same technique described above for those block letters.

My first question would be, what type of BMF are you using?

If you're using the "Ultra Bright", dump it and get the "original", or "New Improved".

The Ultra Bright is too thick to work with on these small areas, and the adhesive is often very insufficient.

 

All that I can say other than that is that I apply the foil to those letters as I would any other badge or script.

I put a piece over the letter that's a little too large, burnish it down extremely well, cut as close to the letter as possible and then burnish again with a soft cloth.

I've never had much of an issue with doing them this way.

It only becomes an adhesion issue for me with very tiny details such as door and trunk locks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[NOBLNG]

Here is an example of “foil under primer” technique.😕 You can clearly see the primer around the edges of the badges. It might be less noticeable on a light coloured paint job? I believe the “foil under paint” method is the better way to go. I am now debating whether or not to toss this one in the pond.🤨

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by NOBLNG

[stitchdup]

37 minutes ago, NOBLNG said:

Here is an example of “foil under primer” technique.😕 You can clearly see the primer around the edges of the badges. It might be less noticeable on a light coloured paint job? I believe the “foil under paint” method is the better way to go. I am now debating whether or not to toss this one in the pond.🤨

 

if you used black primer it would work for modern car emblems since most of them are plastic backed

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, NOBLNG said:

Here is an example of “foil under primer” technique.😕 You can clearly see the primer around the edges of the badges. It might be less noticeable on a light coloured paint job? I believe the “foil under paint” method is the better way to go. I am now debating whether or not to toss this one in the pond.🤨

 

Thank you for this post Greg.

This depicts exactly what I was referring to when I was talking about a fine line of primer being visible around the perimeter of the script in some cases when applying the foil prior to primer.

It might not always be evident, but you are running that risk if you apply it that early.

 

I didn't bring this issue up because I heard it somewhere.

I've experienced it and just wanted people to know that it could be a possibility.

 

This is exactly the reason why I began applying the foil later in the painting process.

Not only does it eliminate the possibility of this happening, but the less paint that you have to remove from the foil, the easier this technique is.

 

 

 

Steve

 

[Sidney Schwartz]

On 5/5/2020 at 5:36 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

I routinely apply as many as 5 primer coats, followed by up to 3 or 4 color coats before applying the foil, with no hide issues, even with the finest scripts.

 

What is the advantage of applying more primer and color coats than is necessary to cover what's underneath?

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Sidney Schwartz said:

What is the advantage of applying more primer and color coats than is necessary to cover what's underneath?

For me, there are various reasons for each operation. Priming, color and clear.

 

I've been using automotive acrylic lacquers for many years, and the amount of primer that I use was born out of the fact that inadequate primer depth can open you up to issues such as plastic crazing, which can destroy a model body in short order.

That, coupled with the fact that I've been building a lot of irreplaceable vintage models, prompted me to be extra careful to be certain that there will be no possibility of body damage, and once you have found a system that works virtually every time without fail, there's little reason to change it, whether it be a rare kit or not.

I often see people on various boards that spray one coat of primer on their model, expecting it to protect, only to be sorely disappointed.

I can't tell you how often I've seen crazed paint on models on Facebook for instance, and the builder asking what happened? 

And just to compound the situation, you'll usually see endless posts from people who apparently don't even know what their looking at, trying to explain what has happened when they don't even know themselves.

It's pretty easy for a seasoned builder to identify crazing, and it almost always comes down to the same cause.

Inadequate priming.

The primers that I use are relatively thin, and go on in pretty thin coats, so I have just resigned myself to the fact that in order for me to be comfortable with the protection, 5 coats is about what I'll need.

 

The amount of color that I put on a body is a little more subjective.

I use an airbrush as a rule, and my objective with the color coats is just to get a good, even color with enough depth to give it the richness and the color saturation that I desire.

Usually, this translates to anywhere from 3 to 5 coats.

In other words, I keep spraying color until it looks right to me.

 

With the clear, it's pretty simple.

I ALWAYS polish my projects, regardless of how "shiny" the finished paint out of the airbrush or spray can.

I just feel that it gives a more realistic finish for various reasons that I won't go into now.

It's for this reason why I use as much clear as I can to give enough depth to ensure that I'm not going to be sitting and looking at a spot where I polished through the clear into the paint and wishing that I had added one more clear coat.

I discovered some time ago that with the clear that I use, 5 coats is about perfect for adding enough protection from burn through from polishing, while at the same time, not obscuring any detail.

As an added bonus, more clear adds depth of color to the finished paint job as well, which never hurts.

 

So, in short, I use a lot of primer to be darn certain that the plastic is protected from a hot paint, and I use a lot of clear to protect against that one little spot of polishing "burn through" that can really ruin your day.

 

Since I started using this regimen, my paint job failure rate has dropped to almost nothing, so the way I see it, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[ColonelKrypton]

Steve,

If your earlier picture of the Galaxie 500 is any indication, then you truly have your painting process perfected. 

As any artist knows, it is important to know your materials and how to best use them. And of course, practice, practice, practice.

 

cheers, Graham

 

[Sidney Schwartz]

Thanks, Steve. You've been very helpful, as usual. 

[jaftygas]

I’ve got to say Steve, your models are just awesome. I’ve gotten a lot out of your suggestions for the future. All I know is all the methods that are mentioned on this, gives a guy a life time of experimentation. So just remember that when you want to throw that hood or body away, cause you never are going to use it, save it for practice.

this is a great forum with some great members😏

[jaftygas]

Oh and by the way! Steve you’re not fooling me anymore. You have a collection of classic cars in mint condition. Thank you for preserving these great pieces of automotive history!😂

[atomicholiday]

I’ve recently started using Steve’s method too.  It does take a little practice, and it really helps to keep your primer and paint coats thin so you don’t bury the details before you ever get foil near the surface.

But my two cents?  It’s the easiest way to get good looking scripts.  And I say that as someone who has pretty bad hand tremors.

[jaftygas]

1 hour ago, atomicholiday said:

I’ve recently started using Steve’s method too.  It does take a little practice, and it really helps to keep your primer and paint coats thin so you don’t bury the details before you ever get foil near the surface.

But my two cents?  It’s the easiest way to get good looking scripts.  And I say that as someone who has pretty bad hand tremors.

I wonder though, what if you cleaned it off after every coat? That way you would not be trying to burn through 5 + coats of medium. 🤔

[StevenGuthmiller]

3 hours ago, jaftygas said:

I wonder though, what if you cleaned it off after every coat? That way you would not be trying to burn through 5 + coats of medium. 🤔

You certainly could do that, but it sounds like a lot of unnecessary work to me. 
 

And if you’re sanding rather than using a solvent to remove the paint from the script, there’s a high probability of sanding through the foil.

 

 

Steve