2020 ACME Southern Nationals Results

[Danno]

1 hour ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

 

This is not the only online event to take place this year.

I participated in the "Desert Classic" show, and while it was a smaller show, it was run with the utmost integrity.

Steve

 

Thank you, Steve.  Your comment means a great deal to all of us involved in producing the Desert Scale Classic dscV16 - Virtual Venue Model Car Championship.

Integrity of the event was our goal and will forever be our hallmark.

We had only 10% of the entries that the Southern Nationals attracted, but we weren't attached at the hip to a large magazine publishing conglomerate with its publicity powers and its own agenda (however that may have influenced how the SN was operated).

And, we had zero complaints about the judging process or the winners selected. We're extremely proud of that.  There's that 'integrity' word again.

So while it is nice that there was a second online event this year, we're glad we found successful ways to avoid this kind of embarrassing controversy. 

And, ours was the FIRST!  LOL.

Hopefully, our event won't be tarred and feathered with guilt by sort-of association.  If Covid-19 issues continue, we have not closed the door on the possibility of repeating our event next spring if we can't have an in-person DESERT SCALE CLASSIC 17.

 

Dan  ?

  

Edited November 15, 2020 by Danno

[Can-Con]

7 minutes ago, Danno said:

 

Thank you, Steve.  Your comment means a great deal to all of us involved in producing the Desert Scale Classic dscV16 - Virtual Venue Model Car Championship.

Integrity of the event was our goal and will forever be our hallmark.

We had only 10% of the entries that the Southern Nationals attracted, but we weren't attached at the hip to a large magazine publishing conglomerate with its publicity powers and its own agenda (however that may have influenced how the SN was operated).

And, we had zero complaints about the judging process or the winners selected. We're extremely proud of that.  There's that 'integrity' word again.

So while it is nice that there was a second online event this year, we're glad we found successful ways to avoid this kind of embarrassing controversy. 

And, ours was the FIRST!  LOL.

Hopefully, our event won't be tarred and feathered with guilt by sort-of association.  If Covid-19 issues continue, we have not closed the door on the possibility of repeating our event next spring if we can't have an in-person DESERT SCALE CLASSIC 17.

 

Dan  ?

  

Dan, I wish I had entered your group's show but I didn't know it was "on line" until it was too late to enter. 

I had seen the announcements but hadn't bothered to read them carefully as I had thought it was another "regular" style show  ,, that there was no way I'd be able to attend.

I'd like to think I'd have done well with my Chrysler. ? 

[Danno]

Thanks, Steve.  I'm sure your Chrysler would have done very well.

We had a good turnout. We didn't know what to expect, but we had no support from either magazine (MCM was on hiatus and SAnoE was NOT interested).

Regardless, we're proud of our efforts and we feel the event speaks for itself.  Our website is still online, so everyone is welcome to "judge" for themselves.

dscV16 was envisioned as a one-time thing since we could not hold our usual in-person event. But, if Covid-19 restrictions continue or intensify, we may host a second one-time event!  If that happens, don't miss us this time!

Dan ?

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Danno said:

 

Hopefully, our event won't be tarred and feathered with guilt by sort-of association.  If Covid-19 issues continue, we have not closed the door on the possibility of repeating our event next spring if we can't have an in-person DESERT SCALE CLASSIC 17.

 

Dan  ?

  

A hope not either...... because it shouldn't!

 

Participating in the show that you gentlemen put on was a delight, and it should not be equated with this sort of event.

 

I had high hopes for the ACME show as well.

Participation numbers were astronomical, and it was highly entertaining to view all of the really spectacular builds displayed there.

But this sort of "black mark" doesn't help anyone that hopes to put on a really great show, whether it be online or in person.

 

I can see how anyone looking at the abundance of terrific models on display in this show in the future and then seeing what was selected by our "peers" as being the top dog in this category would view the entire enterprise as farcical.

I normally don't pay very much attention to the winners in a show because as a general rule they are all absolutely worthy of the recognition that they receive.

But when this result was first revealed, my immediate reaction was to chuckle a little, followed by puzzlement and finally irritation.

It just shouldn't happen if the promoters of the show expect to respected.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Xingu]

I just have to laugh. This is the same type of thing you hear in the parking lot after a "regular" model show or even after a 1:1 car shows.

[StevenGuthmiller]

16 minutes ago, Xingu said:

I just have to laugh. This is the same type of thing you hear in the parking lot after a "regular" model show or even after a 1:1 car shows.

Really?

I never have.

I always walk away feeling satisfied that everything was conducted properly in general and any winners deserved what they received.

In every case that I can think of where I have attended a show, I can't think of one case where something this blatant has taken place.

All that you need is a pair of functioning eyeballs to see that there was some hanky panky going on here.

Interpretation always enters into any kind of judging, and there is the possibility that the best examples might not always win, but if something this conspicuous had happened at any of the shows that I have attended, I would expect that there would be a great deal of suspicion.......and rightfully so.

 

 

Steve

Edited November 15, 2020 by StevenGuthmiller

[keyser]

Not everyone gets a prize. 
It’s absurd that it’s ACME’s full issue, and impugning their integrity is disingenuous at best. 
Run your own NNL. 
Like Plowboy and Tom G have mentioned, give away soap as doorprizes. 
Xingu’s correct. Hear it often over years. Kvetching over judging, winners, rigged votes. 
Current history nice parallel. 

[Classicgas]

I'm with Steve on this. And I did not enter anything. BTW Steve,  can you post a link to the balance of the results? 

Edited November 15, 2020 by Classicgas

[bobthehobbyguy]

2 hours ago, keyser said:

Not everyone gets a prize. 
It’s absurd that it’s ACME’s full issue, and impugning their integrity is disingenuous at best. 
Run your own NNL. 
Like Plowboy and Tom G have mentioned, give away soap as doorprizes. 
Xingu’s correct. Hear it often over years. Kvetching over judging, winners, rigged votes. 
Current history nice parallel. 

I agree. First off putting on a show takes a lot of work whatever the format.

Its disrespectful behavior such as this that kills the interest in putting a show. Obviously winning awards is more important to some rather than having a good time contrary to whats been said by some people. If awards are actually not a big thing then just accept the results. If you find the results that offensive then maybe a tactful letter to those running the show offering constructive criticism. They might be able to fix the problem however its a short coming of the popular vote awards system. 

Its just plain rude and short sighted to condemn the ACME group for a popular vote issue.  Thank them for the effort put for for the show. Even if the results are not right be a gracious loser and get over it!

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

3 hours ago, keyser said:

Not everyone gets a prize. 
It’s absurd that it’s ACME’s full issue, and impugning their integrity is disingenuous at best. 
Run your own NNL. 
Like Plowboy and Tom G have mentioned, give away soap as doorprizes. 
Xingu’s correct. Hear it often over years. Kvetching over judging, winners, rigged votes. 
Current history nice parallel. 

Not everyone "deserves" a prize.

Foremost the person that received it in this case.

The "rules of engagement" are the responsibility of the promoters.

 

 

I suppose I should have expected that there would be apologists afoot.

It doesn't surprise me in the least.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Can-Con]

3 hours ago, keyser said:

Not everyone gets a prize. 
It’s absurd that it’s ACME’s full issue, and impugning their integrity is disingenuous at best. 
Run your own NNL. 
Like Plowboy and Tom G have mentioned, give away soap as doorprizes. 
Xingu’s correct. Hear it often over years. Kvetching over judging, winners, rigged votes. 
Current history nice parallel. 

 

1 hour ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

I agree. First off putting on a show takes a lot of work whatever the format.

Its disrespectful behavior such as this that kills the interest in putting a show. Obviously winning awards is more important to some rather than having a good time contrary to whats been said by some people. If awards are actually not a big thing then just accept the results. If you find the results that offensive then maybe a tactful letter to those running the show offering constructive criticism. They might be able to fix the problem however its a short coming of the popular vote awards system. 

Its just plain rude and short sighted to condemn the ACME group for a popular vote issue.  Thank them for the effort put for for the show. Even if the results are not right be a gracious loser and get over it!

 

Oh, Come on guys, Seriously, 

You really feel that the kit that won is better than one of the kits Steve posted a pic of ? They are not his models, you know.

I don't see where Steve's blaming the show sponsors of rigging the vote. He's just questioning the method used in letting anyone on the internet vote and maybe it should have been limited to people involved and/or entered in the contest.

I expect next, some one's gonna say "shut up and go build something" ?

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 minute ago, Can-Con said:

 

Oh, Come on guys, Seriously, 

You really feel that the kit that won is better than one of the kits Steve posted a pic of ? They are not his models, you know.

I don't see where Steve's blaming the show sponsors of rigging the vote. He's just questioning the method used in letting anyone on the internet vote and maybe it should have been limited to people involved and/or entered in the contest.

I expect next, some one's gonna say "shut up and go build something" ?

It's no surprise to me Steve.

These individuals just don't like me personally for whatever reason, so it was completely predictable that they would eventually materialize on this thread with no other agenda than to contradict.

 

I think most people that have responded so far understand what I'm saying.

It's very simple.

If you are going to have a show and offer a prize that is supposed to be awarded to the "best", then at the very least, be sure that the people who are voting at least have some sort of interest in providing a meaningful verdict.

Otherwise it just becomes a joke and serves no purpose whatsoever.

 

If some individuals can't understand that, well, so be it.

 

 

 

Steve

[Can-Con]

Yea, Steve,  I think I'll let this bear alone and not poke it any more. ?

[StevenGuthmiller]

5 minutes ago, Can-Con said:

Yea, Steve,  I think I'll let this bear alone and not poke it any more. ?

You're probably right Steve.

I believe that it's time to have the thread locked.

It's likely to begin going off the rails at this point.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[bobthehobbyguy]

6 hours ago, Xingu said:

I just have to laugh. This is the same type of thing you hear in the parking lot after a "regular" model show or even after a 1:1 car shows.

True. Some of the complaints have merit. Thats how the NNL got such a great following. No matter how an award is determined by judging or vote there is always going to be a complaint. In my opinion the fewer the awarda the better. 

And from my experience no matter how hard you try some things don't always work as intended. And when someone thinks its appropriate to say don't bother to do it if you don't get it right is unjustified and is infair to those who made the event happen. There is a right and wrong way to provide constructive criticism. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

34 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

And when someone thinks its appropriate to say don't bother to do it if you don't get it right is unjustified and is infair to those who made the event happen. There is a right and wrong way to provide constructive criticism. 

You're correct.

It is unfair to those that made the event happen.

The participants are the ones that made this event happen.

Without "us" there is no event.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited November 16, 2020 by StevenGuthmiller

[moparfarmer]

I only go to ONE NNL a year and it is run the way one should be..Each participant gets a vote sheet to pick 3 models out of all for prizes..Only one vote for all catagories..It works out great and everyone I know comes out pleased with the results..Sure some of the same win every year but with different models..I know the guys I travel with NEVER bring the same models..Always newer ones..I never win nothing but like meeting good people who do good work and you can have a beer with and get along..Steve Guthmiller is one of them..The show is fair and well run..Unfortunately I couldn't cross border this year for a reason and it wasn't I was being incarcerated..NNL NORTH is the show I'am mentioning and cudos to the Club in Minneapols for running it..Thanks guys and hope to see you next year..

[niteowl7710]

I'm sorry but the entire and perhaps unintentional irony to this entire thread is complaining about the judging and/balloting processes used at an NNL Show. The entire point of an NNL's very existence being that it's not supposed to give our awards. The Toledo (original) NNL only gave out 4-6 depending on the year, and NNL East has followed suit. 

In real life the Acme Show gives out a Best of Show, Best Theme, and then a Top 10 within People's Choice voting. So comparing that to something co-run with Kalmbach as a photo show with multiple category winners isn't even apples to oranges, more like apples to snow plows. 

Even within the spirit of "The NNL", these shows that do Top 10s/12/15/20 are only doing so because the clubs putting on the shows caved to the peer pressure of people kvetching and moaning about not winning something at a show who's whole point is...NOT COMPETING.

All this continued belly aching is going to do is make clubs who were thinking about running their Spring shows online bail on the idea, and people who might otherwise "compete" in them shun them because of how "unfair" they are. Then we'll be sitting here next summer bemoaning the fact that there wasn't anything to do this Spring.

[keyser]

I’d say what I did to anyone that dissed a nice bunch like ACME, MAMAz boys, Toledo, whatever. 
Please get your paranoia checked. I’m not out to get you or anyone else. You make it about you Steve. You’re not the only great builder here or out there. Yes the winner was a lump. But in person NNLs are quite awesome, ACME’s included. 
Take your ball home, don’t play with the entire group of ACME guys. I’ll make sure they read this. Most too classy to respond. Buh-bye. 

[robert langoni]

i agree with everyone posted on this subject i just have one question is it just a courtesy between modellers whether in the rules of the show or not if a model won previouslly at that show at any level not be rentered. i say this because at the acme show i seen the same model win top 10 2years in a row and all it was is scooby doo van with a custom paint job . sorry if this any ones model thats on this forum just trying to covey a point. will drop the subject now about the results thanks.  

[StevenGuthmiller]

7 minutes ago, moparfarmer said:

I only go to ONE NNL a year and it is run the way one should be..Each participant gets a vote sheet to pick 3 models out of all for prizes..Only one vote for all catagories..It works out great and everyone I know comes out pleased with the results..Sure some of the same win every year but with different models..I know the guys I travel with NEVER bring the same models..Always newer ones..I never win nothing but like meeting good people who do good work and you can have a beer with and get along..Steve Guthmiller is one of them..The show is fair and well run..Unfortunately I couldn't cross border this year for a reason and it wasn't I was being incarcerated..NNL NORTH is the show I'am mentioning and cudos to the Club in Minneapols for running it..Thanks guys and hope to see you next year..

Agreed Wayne.

The guys from RPM that run the NNL North show know exactly what they're doing!

This is without a doubt the show that I had in mind when I made the statement about never exiting a show a feeling like something weird was going on.

I believe that those that organize and attend the show are all absolutely conscientious about the responsibilities that they are tasked with.

That includes voting for prize winners, whether it's for club or peoples choice awards, because despite some peoples assertions that the organizers of these shows are the ones that deserve our deference, I believe it's the participants that should always be provided the ultimate consideration.

If you don't respect the participants enough to get it right, how can you expect them to return the respect.

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

 

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

22 minutes ago, keyser said:

don’t play with the entire group of ACME guys. I’ll make sure they read this. Most too classy to respond. Buh-bye. 

Ooh!

Now I'm scared.

 

That's a good idea!

Have them read it.

Maybe they'll address the situation so that some confidence can be restored for the next time, and then they won't need you to run interference for them.

 

 

No "keyser", this is not about me.

It's about every individual who enters a model in a show and expects some semblance of fairness if awards are offered.

I entered a few builds, and left the voting to the other participants, expecting that it would be "participants" doing the voting, and planning on nothing else.

I suppose that I could have voted for my own model and had my wife and everybody else that I know vote as well, because lord knows, that door was left standing wide open.

 

I guess it's more important to insure that the organizers don't get their feelings hurt than it is to guarantee that there is integrity in their voting system.

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

56 minutes ago, niteowl7710 said:

Even within the spirit of "The NNL", these shows that do Top 10s/12/15/20 are only doing so because the clubs putting on the shows caved to the peer pressure of people kvetching and moaning about not winning something at a show who's whole point is...NOT COMPETING.

You could very well be right.

But, if they're going to do it, is it too much to ask that they do it right?

Either that or scrap them altogether.

 

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, niteowl7710 said:

All this continued belly aching is going to do is make clubs who were thinking about running their Spring shows online bail on the idea, and people who might otherwise "compete" in them shun them because of how "unfair" they are. Then we'll be sitting here next summer bemoaning the fact that there wasn't anything to do this Spring.

I might buy that if it weren't for the fact that others have done it before them with no issues whatsoever.

 

The guys that put on the "Desert scale Classic" did an exemplary job.

Just because one group screwed up doesn't mean that everyone else will follow suite.

Maybe, just maybe, others can learn from this mistake and not repeat it!

 

 

 

Steve

[blunc]

Even before the pandemic came along, the crew that puts on the Desert Scale Classic go to great lengths to put on a fair and unbiased show/critically judged contest ( as has been going on for many years in Arizona even before Desert Scale Classic came to be).

The best entries in each class would get rewarded no matter who entered.

There will always be entrants that care more about the trophy than learning or the camaraderie, those types usually don't come back when they don't get a trophy.

We, as modellers need to remember that we will always build to our own standards, a contest is a measuring stick of our progress (if we care to compete), a show is a social gathering to share our passions...sometimes a contest is both.

A voting system needs to take into account how it can/will be abused and take steps to mitigate the downsides or the show will spiral due to bad press. Social media is a multi-edged sword.