Johan 1955, Powell pickup

[mikos]

On 6/30/2023 at 4:20 PM, Brian Austin said:

Some of us are fond of Johan for the "oddball" subjects, the Pontiacs, the Oldses, the Cadillacs and the Studebakers.

The Cadillacs especially.  I would give a small kidney to have a 1/25th plastic ‘79-‘85 Eldorado, ‘71-‘76 Cadillac full-size, 76-‘79 Seville and a non diecast based accurate version of the “notchback” ‘80-‘85 Cadillac Coupe Deville based on the ‘77-‘79 tooling.

If they can secure the licensing rights, many of these old Johan kits of Oldsmobiles, Cadillacs and other non mainstream subjects can be brought back to life again by scanning and then cloning the old kits.  This would provide interesting model subjects to builders who don’t want to apply for a second mortgage to obtain and are sick of building just Mustangs, Camaros and Corvettes all the time.

Okay, maybe the old Johan kits are that not expensive yet.   However, there seems to be a nefarious component, an undercurrent, bad omen if you will surrounding the Johan legacy which doesn’t want to see the Johan name or the old kit subjects coming back to market again.  I mean, come on.  Stories of disgruntled employees taking tooling inserts home with them when things were going down all the way to this, somebody stealing the Powell master from Okey.  I am convinced that there are outside forces working against Okey trying to make a go of it in whatever limited fashion that he can.

The reason I say this is because first, we had the tooling excuse.  The old pre WW2 tooling couldn’t fit in the modern day injection molding machine set ups.  Well, with the current methods of cloning the kit, like what Round2 is currently doing now, pretty much blows that argument out of the water.  Second, the Johan name legacy and the complicated licensing requirements from the auto manufacturers needed to produce these kits.  Well, I don’t think GM and the others would be completely closed minded to not wanting  to offer licensing deals on some of the old products they used to sell.   I’m sure they would like to continue their legacy with scale miniatures of their products.  Okey and the Johan name.  Unless he’s really greedy and wants too much for using the Johan name, I don’t think this would be a big problem.  Over the many years in buying models and parts from him,  he doesn’t come across as a guy that is super greedy and likes to gouge his customers.  If anything, he seems to be completely opposite of that from my experience.

Let Johan die, they say.  I say no.  Let’s revive the brand and start making some of those obscure kits under the name again.  It could be a sub brand like AMT and MPC that is currently under the Round2 umbrella.

[bobthehobbyguy]

It's not letting Johan die it's been dead for a long time. Buying the name would have little value because for the most part a majority of modelers the name would have no meaning. If you really want any of the Johan kits you need to buy an old kit.  Round2 has list of projects they want to do and quite frankly I doubt doubt they would want to drop projects to take on trying to revive Johan. Revell definitely wouldn't be interested. Mobieus has found their niche and I don't see them.be interest. And finally Atlantis has found their niche.  

 

 

[Justin Porter]

8 hours ago, mikos said:

I am convinced that there are outside forces working against Okey trying to make a go of it in whatever limited fashion that he can.

Incompetency is not an outside force. His inability to even get a reasonably details 3D printed resin kit out the door proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Compare the absolute farce of attempting to promote and distribute the Powell to USCP's Citroen SM, or the resin powerhouse that is Alpha Model, or other similar one man bands like Iceman Collections and their Lamborghini Urus and upcoming Vector W8. And this is from a man with - supposedly - decades of experience producing scale models whom has the added luxury of representing a classic prestige brand in Johan. 

People, like myself, who say let Johan die aren't opposed to the subject matter that Johan has kitted in the past. I would be over the moon if Moebius or Hasegawa or Revell or Iceman or anyone else (maybe excluding Round 2 unless they offered assurances it wouldn't be a "Craftsman Plus" style antique) announced an SC/Rambler or a '66 Toronado. Speaking specifically for myself, I want the hobby to move on from Johan. They had their time, it was in the 20th century. We're now nearly a quarter of the way through the 21st century and it ought to be clear that Johan isn't joining us in it.

[bobthehobbyguy]

The biggest issue I see in all the posts that call for just scanning the old Johan kits is that it is an easy way to get them back on the market. What is missed is the fact that creating a kit represents a significant amount of manpower and financial resources. That means the demand has to justify those costs. 

It would be great to see some of those older kits brought back but I just can't see there is the necessary return on investment.

I've got no ill will against Okey but in the 20 plus years he's owned the Johan name he has not done very much. 

[Richard Bartrop]

The Jo-han classic kits are the ones that interest me, and if through some miracle they could resurrects those under another company name, I'd be totally good with that, but I'm not holding my breath.

[mikos]

You guys make some excellent points.

I do think there is a demand for at least some of the subject matter that Johan did.  Personally, I get very bored of the same subject matter being recycled by some of them.  First, it was Round2 with the (MPC based) ‘73 Mustang in the heritage box, then it was the 007 James Bond issue with semi corrected “1971” front end and then Revell comes out with their all new tool ‘71 Mustang that blows the Round2 versions out of the water.  

The ‘69 Charger was another one that was similar.  Round2 had the ancient DoH kit and released it with the revised rear window, then Revell did their own new tool ‘68-‘69-‘70 Charger.  Years later, Round2 does a promo style snap fit with all new tooling.  It can get kind of repetitive.

Some older Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles would add some interesting subject matter back into the catalog.  I’m thinking it would be easier and less expensive to scan the old kits than produce something that has never been kitted before like the dream models I posted above.  If detail is a problem, they can tool up a more detailed chassis, but I don’t really see the need.  Some of the later Johan kits were on par or even above what the others were doing back then.Look at the Turbine Car or the models they did under the “Classic Series”.  In many ways, those kits rivaled what was being made back then and even compete detail-wise with many of the kits being made today.

I know some modelers don’t like the ”Craftsman” kits due to their simplistic nature, but I love them.  They offer a lot of value for a low build effort.  The ‘63 Nova Wagon sold well from what I’ve read.  

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by mikos

[Justin Porter]

11 minutes ago, mikos said:

You guys make some excellent points.

I do think there is a demand for at least some of the subject matter that Johan did.  Personally, I get very bored of the same subject matter being recycled by some of them.  First, it was Round2 with the (MPC based) ‘73 Mustang in the heritage box, then it was the 007 James Bond issue with semi corrected “1971” front end and then Revell comes out with their all new tool ‘71 Mustang that blows the Round2 versions out of the water.  

The ‘69 Charger was another one that was similar.  Round2 had the ancient DoH kit and released it with the revised rear window, then Revell did their own new tool ‘68-‘69-‘70 Charger.  Years later, Round2 does a promo style snap fit with all new tooling.  It can get kind of repetitive.

Some older Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles would add some interesting subject matter back into the catalog.  I’m thinking it would be easier and less expensive to scan the old kits than produce something that has never been kitted before like the dream models I posted above.  If detail is a problem, they can tool up a more detailed chassis, but I don’t really see the need. Some of the later Johan kits were on par or even above what the others were doing back then.  Look at the Turbine Car or the models they did under the “Classic Series”.  In many ways, those kits rivaled what was being made back then and even compete detail-wise with many of the kits being made today.

I know some modelers don’t like the ”Craftsman” kits due to their simplistic nature, but I love them.  They offer a lot of value for a low build effort.  The ‘63 Nova Wagon sold well from what I’ve read.  

 

 

 

Okay. Let's break down your argument thusly. 

1: Subject Matter Repetition - In military modeling, more obscure subject matter equates to lower production numbers and higher pricetags for equivalent detail in a plastic kit. Currently, there are a handful of model car companies that have this business model.

Ebbro for vintage F1 cars.
NuNu for modern and vintage touring cars and rally cars.
Belkits and DModel for rally cars.
Salvinos JR for American circle track subjects
Moebius for classic American cars

It's quite all right to prefer less common subject matter, but the understanding has to be that the burden of the lower sales numbers gets placed on the consumer. 

2: Scanning Older Kits - If it was as simple as plunking an unbuilt original down underneath a LIDAR scanner and pressing "print" then Round 2 wouldn't take as long as they do on the Craftsman kits. Even a straight copy requires post-scanning 3D modelling work to clean up the scan, re-engineering of injection points and ejector posts to match the function of modern molding equipment, and that's setting aside the murky waters of who actually owns the Intellectual Property that IS the design of the Johan kits. Is it worth it to an existing company to pay for the rights to recreate tooling that no longer exists? Likely not, particularly to the two companies whose livelihoods are retro reissues - those being Atlantis and Round 2. 

3: Johan Models Could Compete With Modern Kits - This is a laughable statement, bordering on insulting. Look in the box of Tamiya's McLaren Senna. Look in the box of Ebbro's Brabham BT-18. Look in the box of ICM's Benz Patent Motorwagen. Look in the box of Moebius's AFX Chryslers. Look in the box of Hasegawa's Lancia O37. There is NOTHING that Johan has ever produced that holds up to the modern standards of the 21st century. And yes, that includes the much vaunted Chrysler Turbine car with its awful out of scale hinges, horrid panel gaps, and compromised front suspension detail for the sake of the "steering" function. And that's the BEST that Johan ever had to offer. The bulk of their kits are saggy, muddy, hole in the block, chrome headlight, seats molded to the floor of the interior tub JOKES like their '68 AMX. 

We don't need the old Johan kits back. We don't need JOHAN back. We need modern kits of Johan's subject matter and builders who are as willing to pay ACTUAL prices for those kits the way that rally builders eagerly plunked down their $60 when DModel announced a Ford Sierra. 

[bobthehobbyguy]

2 hours ago, Justin Porter said:

1: Subject Matter Repetition - In military modeling, more obscure subject matter equates to lower production numbers and higher pricetags for equivalent detail in a plastic kit. Currently, there are a handful of model car companies that have this business model.

In the current market new tooling requires several versions based on a kit to make a kit financially viable. That's.limited by the subject matter. For example a Tucker just doesn't support that model. It would have to be a more expensive kit.

2 hours ago, Justin Porter said:

2: Scanning Older Kits - If it was as simple as plunking an unbuilt original down underneath a LIDAR scanner and pressing "print" then Round 2 wouldn't take as long as they do on the Craftsman kits. Even a straight copy requires post-scanning 3D modelling work to clean up the scan, re-engineering of injection points and ejector posts to match the function of modern molding equipment, and that's setting aside the murky waters of who actually owns the Intellectual Property that IS the design of the Johan kits. Is it worth it to an existing company to pay for the rights to recreate tooling that no longer exists? Likely not, particularly to the two companies whose livelihoods are retro reissues - those being Atlantis and Round 2. 

The real strength of being able to 3d scan parts is to replace missing tooling or heavily modified tooling. 

Even better is the ability to scan the actual car. The new Revell 1971 Mustang is a great example.

[Tabbysdaddy]

According to a bunch of people, nostalgia still sells. 

[niteowl7710]

Aren't several of the JoHan Cadillacs box scale? (Eg their scaled to fit in the standard JoHan box rather than being actual 1/25 acale).

What on earth is the point of 3D scanning and then plunking down something like $300k to reproduce that? 

Because at the end of the day 3D scanning an old kit can certainly shorten the R+D portion of development similarly to getting the raw CAD on a new car would. But that tooling steel and the processes of converting it into a model, paying for boxes, instructions, the small fortune for good decals, et al don't decrease one nickel over creating the model from scanning a 1:1 car and going from there (ala the recent Revell kits).

[bobthehobbyguy]

Exactly. Scanning an old kit is only a small part of the cost. There is a tremendous improvement to the model quality by scanning the actual car .

[mikos]

On 9/18/2023 at 2:10 PM, Justin Porter said:

Quote

1: Subject Matter Repetition - In military modeling, more obscure subject matter equates to lower production numbers and higher pricetags for equivalent detail in a plastic kit. Currently, there are a handful of model car companies that have this business model.

Ebbro for vintage F1 cars.
NuNu for modern and vintage touring cars and rally cars.
Belkits and DModel for rally cars.
Salvinos JR for American circle track subjects
Moebius for classic American cars

It's quite all right to prefer less common subject matter, but the understanding has to be that the burden of the lower sales numbers gets placed on the consumer.

 

With production runs being 5k or less, from what I’ve read, I don’t think that would be a major problem as you make it out to be.  Sure, if you’re comparing past runs like they were in ‘60’s, ‘70’s and the ‘80’s, you might have a good point.  However, is Moebius or Salvinos producing in the tens of thousands?  I’m thinking probably not.  Also, if you keep the kits simple like many of them were, you can have a price point comparable to the ultra super detailed new tool kits.
 

Quote

2: Scanning Older Kits - If it was as simple as plunking an unbuilt original down underneath a LIDAR scanner and pressing "print" then Round 2 wouldn't take as long as they do on the Craftsman kits. Even a straight copy requires post-scanning 3D modelling work to clean up the scan, re-engineering of injection points and ejector posts to match the function of modern molding equipment, and that's setting aside the murky waters of who actually owns the Intellectual Property that IS the design of the Johan kits. Is it worth it to an existing company to pay for the rights to recreate tooling that no longer exists? Likely not, particularly to the two companies whose livelihoods are retro reissues - those being Atlantis and Round 2.

I would assume Okey Spaulding owns the intellectual property of Johan.  He owns the name.  The rest comes from licensing agreements, of which, many die-cast models are being produced of those brands.  If the die-cast makers can do it, why can’t a plastic model company with a storied history do it?   Who owns the intellectual property of Cadillac?  Well, I would think GM.  I’ve seen models of Cadillacs in die-cast, from a few hundred dollar 1/18th scale models, all the way to the less than $10 dollar Johnny Lightning matchbox style cars.  This notion that they can’t be done due to “licensing” or “intellectual property” is pure hogwash.
 

Quote

3: Johan Models Could Compete With Modern Kits - This is a laughable statement, bordering on insulting. Look in the box of Tamiya's McLaren Senna. Look in the box of Ebbro's Brabham BT-18. Look in the box of ICM's Benz Patent Motorwagen. Look in the box of Moebius's AFX Chryslers. Look in the box of Hasegawa's Lancia O37. There is NOTHING that Johan has ever produced that holds up to the modern standards of the 21st century. And yes, that includes the much vaunted Chrysler Turbine car with its awful out of scale hinges, horrid panel gaps, and compromised front suspension detail for the sake of the "steering" function. And that's the BEST that Johan ever had to offer. The bulk of their kits are saggy, muddy, hole in the block, chrome headlight, seats molded to the floor of the interior tub JOKES like their '68 AMX.

The focus here is not how detailed they can be or how they compare to some specialized super small niche $85+ Tamiya/Nu Nu kit of some racer dude’s car than ran a particular race in a particular configuration.  Those kinds of models wouldn’t appeal to me.  However, the Johan subject matter, if cloned and reissued, would offer modelers an alternative to the same recycled stuff we’ve been seeing over the last few years.  And, the best part is we wouldn’t have to spend $100-$300+ to build something different.   How many fastback ‘71-‘73 Mustangs do we need?  How many different variations of the ‘70 Chevelle SS 454 do we need? Some Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles added to the mix would be a good thing for the hobby.
 

Quote

We don't need the old Johan kits back. We don't need JOHAN back. We need modern kits of Johan's subject matter and builders who are as willing to pay ACTUAL prices for those kits the way that rally builders eagerly plunked down their $60 when DModel announced a Ford Sierra.

We DO need JOHAN back.  It can be done.   Using the technology that is currently available right now and in use by Round2, it’s only logical to start making some of those old Johan kits again.  Regardless of what you may think about them, they would sell and they would sell very well in the current limited production market.  Round2 could absorb the Johan name under their umbrella with AMT/MPC and produce these oddball subject matter kits under the Johan name.  The name still has enough product identity, nolstalgia and history to resonate with model kit buyers.  If they wait too long, it will be much more difficult as the market will have changed and the person who owns the Johan name will no longer be around.  

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by mikos

[mikos]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:01 PM, niteowl7710 said:

Aren't several of the JoHan Cadillacs box scale? (Eg their scaled to fit in the standard JoHan box rather than being actual 1/25 acale).

What on earth is the point of 3D scanning and then plunking down something like $300k to reproduce that? 

Because at the end of the day 3D scanning an old kit can certainly shorten the R+D portion of development similarly to getting the raw CAD on a new car would. But that tooling steel and the processes of converting it into a model, paying for boxes, instructions, the small fortune for good decals, et al don't decrease one nickel over creating the model from scanning a 1:1 car and going from there (ala the recent Revell kits).

Those were only on some of the older Cadillac promos like the ‘58-‘60 because they would not fit in the standard promo box of the time if they were true 1/25th scale.  I think they just shortened the backend a little, not shrinking the whole car.  By the early to mid ‘60’s, that was no longer a problem I believe.

Come on now, you make them out to be like Palmer kits or something.  Those Johan Cadillacs looked great.  If they didn’t, you wouldn’t have people spending up to $300+ to own one on that particular auction site.   

Scanning a 1:1 car might be the way to go, but why is Round2 cloning the old kits instead to make the ‘68 Coronet Super Bee convertible or the ‘63 Nova Wagon or the ‘68 GTO or the ‘65 GTO hardtop?  If scanning the real thing was just as viable, why didn’t they do it that way?  For some reason, I’m thinking it’s cheaper and faster the way they did it. However, we don’t really know what they did until Steve G. from Round2 chimes in and tells us about it.

Didn’t Revell scan the chop top “notchback” Fox body Mustang from a real 1:1 scale car?  If that was the best way to do it, they sure didn’t do a good job.
 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by mikos

[niteowl7710]

3 hours ago, mikos said:

Those were only on some of the older Cadillac promos like the ‘58-‘60 because they would not fit in the standard promo box of the time if they were true 1/25th scale.  I think they just shortened the backend a little, not shrinking the whole car.  By the early to mid ‘60’s, that was no longer a problem I believe.

Come on now, you make them out to be like Palmer kits or something.  Those Johan Cadillacs looked great.  If they didn’t, you wouldn’t have people spending up to $300+ to own one on that particular auction site.   

Scanning a 1:1 car might be the way to go, but why is Round2 cloning the old kits instead to make the ‘68 Coronet Super Bee convertible or the ‘63 Nova Wagon or the ‘68 GTO or the ‘65 GTO hardtop?  If scanning the real thing was just as viable, why didn’t they do it that way?  For some reason, I’m thinking it’s cheaper and faster the way they did it. However, we don’t really know what they did until Steve G. from Round2 chimes in and tells us about it.

Didn’t Revell scan the chop top “notchback” Fox body Mustang from a real 1:1 scale car?  If that was the best way to do it, they sure didn’t do a good job.
 

 

No the only 3D scanned Revell U.S. kits are the two new tool Foose kits - Eldorod and Custom Ford P/U and the '71 Mustang. The affordability of that tech had just started to come into the realm of possibility at the same time Hobbico imploded and the whole ship went down.

Also I've seen you mention it on at least two threads now that an eBay price some how justifies the recreation of a model. That's not a viable reason to do something. People are willing to pay more for something that can't (or won't) likely be reproduced. That's true of any collectible industry, and reproduction of JoHan kits is about as likely as Topps deciding to run off another printing of Jordon Rookie Cards. Those JoHan kits were pretty much entirely funded by the Big 3 Promo work they were doing at the time, and in modern terms you would need to be able to get at LEAST 3 variants out of a new piece of tooling to justify the investment costs. There's not 3 versions of a 64 Cadillac, unless you want to pay upwards of $70 for a single issue release (like some of the European niche rally kit manufacturers charge). 

[mikos]

8 hours ago, niteowl7710 said:

No the only 3D scanned Revell U.S. kits are the two new tool Foose kits - Eldorod and Custom Ford P/U and the '71 Mustang. The affordability of that tech had just started to come into the realm of possibility at the same time Hobbico imploded and the whole ship went down.

Also I've seen you mention it on at least two threads now that an eBay price some how justifies the recreation of a model. That's not a viable reason to do something. People are willing to pay more for something that can't (or won't) likely be reproduced. That's true of any collectible industry, and reproduction of JoHan kits is about as likely as Topps deciding to run off another printing of Jordon Rookie Cards. Those JoHan kits were pretty much entirely funded by the Big 3 Promo work they were doing at the time, and in modern terms you would need to be able to get at LEAST 3 variants out of a new piece of tooling to justify the investment costs. There's not 3 versions of a 64 Cadillac, unless you want to pay upwards of $70 for a single issue release (like some of the European niche rally kit manufacturers charge). 

I don’t know where you are getting $70 for a Cadillac kit.  It would be at a similar price point as the recently “cloned” Round2 kits, $35-$40.   As far as I know, none of the recently “cloned” kits have three variants.  The ‘63 Nova wagon is the only one with three variants.  ‘63 Nova wagon, ‘63 Nova wagon with trailer/customizing parts and the ‘63 Nova Wagon “Coca Cola” edition.  You could do the same thing for that Cadillac.  Make one variant the stock car, make another variant a fantasy race car or low rider edition and another the Coca Cola edition. The good news, the low rider variant will exist for all of them.  So, that’s only one more variant you have to come up with if you count the single stock car version and the low rider version.  With that, you’ll have your required three variants for that Cadillac as you say.
 
The big three promo work did fund those kits.  Why not take advantage of it and clone them.  I’m sure that would be a lot cheaper than tooling them up from scratch.  Contrary to what many think, there is still a lot of nostalgia appeal tied up in those old kits.  Auction prices may not reflect what will actually sell, as I’ve always heard on these forums, but there is a general trend to be noticed and you can’t ignore that.  Having a cloned old Cadillac model kit would have sales potential if you can tap into the nostalgia aspect.  It would certainly be different than the typical offerings we usually get.  I’m sure it would not languish on the top shelf of some hobby store for years.  Somebody would snap it up.  It would be a low production niche model catered to a specific market.  That’s where the hobby is headed to if not already there IMO.

Round2 has proven it can be done.  This seems to be the holy grail that we’ve always wanted, being able to reproduce a kit that we thought could never be done again without starting from scratch.  Why can’t we use that technology on some of those old Johan kits as well?

Edited September 23, 2023 by mikos

[bobthehobbyguy]

Considering that almost a year has gone by and the Powell is still not available in any form. The missing print sample and the master do no justify this delay. I believe in 6 months we will have seen no more progress on this project.

If your desire is to get any of the Johan kits then you will need to buy one now as they aren't going to get cheaper.

Mikos if you want to pitch a proposal to Round2 then research what it costs to make a kit and put together a proposal to show why it's going to work.

The two quotes below are good insight into how the modeling business works.

 

On 9/19/2023 at 11:01 PM, niteowl7710 said:

Aren't several of the JoHan Cadillacs box scale? (Eg their scaled to fit in the standard JoHan box rather than being actual 1/25 acale).

What on earth is the point of 3D scanning and then plunking down something like $300k to reproduce that? 

Because at the end of the day 3D scanning an old kit can certainly shorten the R+D portion of development similarly to getting the raw CAD on a new car would. But that tooling steel and the processes of converting it into a model, paying for boxes, instructions, the small fortune for good decals, et al don't decrease one nickel over creating the model from scanning a 1:1 car and going from there (ala the recent Revell kits).

 

11 hours ago, niteowl7710 said:

No the only 3D scanned Revell U.S. kits are the two new tool Foose kits - Eldorod and Custom Ford P/U and the '71 Mustang. The affordability of that tech had just started to come into the realm of possibility at the same time Hobbico imploded and the whole ship went down.

Also I've seen you mention it on at least two threads now that an eBay price some how justifies the recreation of a model. That's not a viable reason to do something. People are willing to pay more for something that can't (or won't) likely be reproduced. That's true of any collectible industry, and reproduction of JoHan kits is about as likely as Topps deciding to run off another printing of Jordon Rookie Cards. Those JoHan kits were pretty much entirely funded by the Big 3 Promo work they were doing at the time, and in modern terms you would need to be able to get at LEAST 3 variants out of a new piece of tooling to justify the investment costs. There's not 3 versions of a 64 Cadillac, unless you want to pay upwards of $70 for a single issue release (like some of the European niche rally kit manufacturers charge). 

 

[bobthehobbyguy]

15 hours ago, mikos said:

 

Scanning a 1:1 car might be the way to go, but why is Round2 cloning the old kits instead to make the ‘68 Coronet Super Bee convertible or the ‘63 Nova Wagon or the ‘68 GTO or the ‘65 GTO hardtop?  If scanning the real thing was just as viable, why didn’t they do it that way?  For some reason, I’m thinking it’s cheaper and faster the way they did it. However, we don’t really know what they did until Steve G. from Round2 chimes in and tells us about it.

 

These decisions have to be made on a case by case basis. It depends on what Round2 feels what the market on what they do.

Regardless of what you or anyone wants to believe Johan is dead and no amount of wishful thinking is going to change that.

 

[SteveG]

16 hours ago, mikos said:

Scanning a 1:1 car might be the way to go, but why is Round2 cloning the old kits instead to make the ‘68 Coronet Super Bee convertible or the ‘63 Nova Wagon or the ‘68 GTO or the ‘65 GTO hardtop?  If scanning the real thing was just as viable, why didn’t they do it that way?  For some reason, I’m thinking it’s cheaper and faster the way they did it. However, we don’t really know what they did until Steve G. from Round2 chimes in and tells us about it.

Didn’t Revell scan the chop top “notchback” Fox body Mustang from a real 1:1 scale car?  If that was the best way to do it, they sure didn’t do a good job.

I can't say for sure if Revell's Fox body Mustang started with a scan of a real 1:1 car but my is guess is not.   Both Revell's '71 Mustang and our recent AMT Craftsman Plus GTO's started with 3D scanning technology, the difference being they had a full-size car to scan, and we started with existing models.  In our case two recently discovered vintage promos.  So why did we go that route?  If your familiar with the quote "make hay while the sun shines" well that applies here.  I was given the chance to create some easy to build kits, I could pick the subject matter as long as I can get them done within a specified time and budget.  I could have said no but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to bring back not one but two classic GTO models.   Sure, would I have liked to have scanned a full-size restored GTO inside and out and created an all-new full detail kit, you can bet on it.  Even if I was able to get a project like that approved, and I probably would have had to pick just one of them, I would still be working on it today it as a project that size takes a good two years plus to complete.   Will we create some all-new models based on 1:1 3D scans, absolutely if I ever get that chance.     

In the meantime, I hope you'll still enjoy building all the new models we've made recently and the ones that are coming soon.  As for the Powell Pickup, I don't see anywhere in the thread about the 3D files being lost, if a body was printed then there would have to be a 3D print file out there somewhere.   I expect it will surface sooner or later.   

-Steve

[Can-Con]

It seems to me that saying the original sample disappeared and blaming that for not producing a kit already is kinda like saying the dog ate my homework but your homework was all done on a computer. 🤨🙄

[Luc Janssens]

1 hour ago, SteveG said:

I can't say for sure if Revell's Fox body Mustang started with a scan of a real 1:1 car but my is guess is not.   Both Revell's '71 Mustang and our recent AMT Craftsman Plus GTO's started with 3D scanning technology, the difference being they had a full-size car to scan, and we started with existing models.  In our case two recently discovered vintage promos.  So why did we go that route?  If your familiar with the quote "make hay while the sun shines" well that applies here.  I was given the chance to create some easy to build kits, I could pick the subject matter as long as I can get them done within a specified time and budget.  I could have said no but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to bring back not one but two classic GTO models.   Sure, would I have liked to have scanned a full-size restored GTO inside and out and created an all-new full detail kit, you can bet on it.  Even if I was able to get a project like that approved, and I probably would have had to pick just one of them, I would still be working on it today it as a project that size takes a good two years plus to complete.   Will we create some all-new models based on 1:1 3D scans, absolutely if I ever get that chance.     

In the meantime, I hope you'll still enjoy building all the new models we've made recently and the ones that are coming soon.  As for the Powell Pickup, I don't see anywhere in the thread about the 3D files being lost, if a body was printed then there would have to be a 3D print file out there somewhere.   I expect it will surface sooner or later.   

-Steve

Also Steve, a scan of a pre-CAD designed full size car, would only give the data of the "skin" then the real model kit design starts.

The fun thing, IMHO is that, when taking a whole generation of let's say the Jo-Han 1968-70 GTX/Roadrunner kits and scanning them while making improvements in certain areas, that one can put all the possible different versions in a cluster of smaller tools which in a certain combination can eject version a, b, c, etc... which spreads the investment cost, while in the old days of annuals the prior year model was passe, thus erased, cus only the new model mattered and was paid for by the OEM.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Luc Janssens

[bobthehobbyguy]

SteveG thanks for providing your insights. If you could expand on how some of the decisions when a kit is to be produced I think it would help provide a better understanding of the process.

For example that a full detail kit requires a 2 year cycle. Also the constraints on what type kit a new model will be- such as time and budget.

 

[niteowl7710]

10 hours ago, mikos said:

I don’t know where you are getting $70 for a Cadillac kit.  It would be at a similar price point as the recently “cloned” Round2 kits, $35-$40.   As far as I know, none of the recently “cloned” kits have three variants.  The ‘63 Nova wagon is the only one with three variants.  ‘63 Nova wagon, ‘63 Nova wagon with trailer/customizing parts and the ‘63 Nova Wagon “Coca Cola” edition.  You could do the same thing for that Cadillac.  Make one variant the stock car, make another variant a fantasy race car or low rider edition and another the Coca Cola edition. The good news, the low rider variant will exist for all of them.  So, that’s only one more variant you have to come up with if you count the single stock car version and the low rider version.  With that, you’ll have your required three variants for that Cadillac as you say.
 
The big three promo work did fund those kits.  Why not take advantage of it and clone them.  I’m sure that would be a lot cheaper than tooling them up from scratch.  Contrary to what many think, there is still a lot of nostalgia appeal tied up in those old kits.  Auction prices may not reflect what will actually sell, as I’ve always heard on these forums, but there is a general trend to be noticed and you can’t ignore that.  Having a cloned old Cadillac model kit would have sales potential if you can tap into the nostalgia aspect.  It would certainly be different than the typical offerings we usually get.  I’m sure it would not languish on the top shelf of some hobby store for years.  Somebody would snap it up.  It would be a low production niche model catered to a specific market.  That’s where the hobby is headed to if not already there IMO.

Round2 has proven it can be done.  This seems to be the holy grail that we’ve always wanted, being able to reproduce a kit that we thought could never be done again without starting from scratch.  Why can’t we use that technology on some of those old Johan kits as well?

You sir are what we call a "GPI"...Goal Post Installer.  You just move them around to wherever you see fit to try to make your argument instead of just planting them in the endzone and leaving them there.

Now do you want to clone a JoHan kit or what?

Because that Johan Caddy doesn't have a "fantasy race car" or a lowrider as part of the kit.  So you want to clone a 60 yr old kit, and then add a whole slew of new parts to it that have never existed.  If I might...ahahahhahaahahahahaha *wheeze* ahahahahahahahaha.  Ask the folks at Round about how well making the 1970 Full Bumper Camaro went and that was just changing a nose insert and making a bumper to fit a tool that was half as old as any JoHan kit you might want to deal with...The only thing cloning a kit does is save time in the process of figuring out how to break the 1:1 item down into a model, because you are for all intents and purposes copying the original layout.  Adding mock race parts and lowrider bits, sorry but it would be easier to start from scratch and design it all to fit from Day 1 rather than beating your face off interchange issues.  Then you can create a real chassis for it, not have the front axle go through the engine block and make a full depth interior for it while you're at it. 

The 1963 Nova kit was produced exactly how the original one came back then; they didn't make a new engine and a new trailer out of whole cloth to make a 2nd version of it.  

Also these forums represent the "top" 3-5% of the hobby in terms of interest and "fandom".  They are not an accurate representation of what would actually sell in a retail format.  90-95% of the models sold go via the casual "accidentally found it" Ollie's, Wal*Mart, Hobby Lobby crowd.  I'm guessing while you could generate interest in a 64 Cadillac - perhaps even enough to move the 25-30k kits you'd have to sell to turn a profit off the tooling investment - but saying "CLONED FROM ORIGINAL JOHAN KIT!!" is going to make those people go - Huh? Who? Jo-What? Because while nostalgia sells kits for Round2 for sure, people who were actually teenagers when that kit was new are now in their 70s (my dad graduated HS that year and he's 76)...the nostalgia gravy train has a very finite future.

[mikos]

6 hours ago, SteveG said:

I can't say for sure if Revell's Fox body Mustang started with a scan of a real 1:1 car but my is guess is not.   Both Revell's '71 Mustang and our recent AMT Craftsman Plus GTO's started with 3D scanning technology, the difference being they had a full-size car to scan, and we started with existing models.  In our case two recently discovered vintage promos.  So why did we go that route?  If your familiar with the quote "make hay while the sun shines" well that applies here.  I was given the chance to create some easy to build kits, I could pick the subject matter as long as I can get them done within a specified time and budget.  I could have said no but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to bring back not one but two classic GTO models.   Sure, would I have liked to have scanned a full-size restored GTO inside and out and created an all-new full detail kit, you can bet on it.  Even if I was able to get a project like that approved, and I probably would have had to pick just one of them, I would still be working on it today it as a project that size takes a good two years plus to complete.   Will we create some all-new models based on 1:1 3D scans, absolutely if I ever get that chance.     

In the meantime, I hope you'll still enjoy building all the new models we've made recently and the ones that are coming soon.  As for the Powell Pickup, I don't see anywhere in the thread about the 3D files being lost, if a body was printed then there would have to be a 3D print file out there somewhere.   I expect it will surface sooner or later.   

-Steve

Thanks Steve.  I sincerely thank you and Round2 for deciding to clone those recent reissues from the original kits/promos.  I look forward to many more that may be possibly on the way in the near future.  

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by mikos

[mikos]

53 minutes ago, niteowl7710 said:

Quote

You sir are what we call a "GPI"...Goal Post Installer.  You just move them around to wherever you see fit to try to make your argument instead of just planting them in the endzone and leaving them there.

Why are you so hostile?  There’s really no need for that.

Quote

Now do you want to clone a JoHan kit or what?

The real question is, why are you so opposed to it?  It’s almost as if you had a secret agenda to not wanting to let it happen.   Would it lessen the value of your vast Johan kit and promo collection?  Why do you have such a hostile attitude about it?  

Quote

Because that Johan Caddy doesn't have a "fantasy race car" or a lowrider as part of the kit.  So you want to clone a 60 yr old kit, and then add a whole slew of new parts to it that have never existed.  If I might...ahahahhahaahahahahaha *wheeze* ahahahahahahahaha.  Ask the folks at Round about how well making the 1970 Full Bumper Camaro went and that was just changing a nose insert and making a bumper to fit a tool that was half as old as any JoHan kit you might want to deal with...The only thing cloning a kit does is save time in the process of figuring out how to break the 1:1 item down into a model, because you are for all intents and purposes copying the original layout.  Adding mock race parts and lowrider bits, sorry but it would be easier to start from scratch and design it all to fit from Day 1 rather than beating your face off interchange issues.  Then you can create a real chassis for it, not have the front axle go through the engine block and make a full depth interior for it while you're at it.

Starting from scratch would take more time and money.  If you did that, you would have to increase the detail which would undoubtably increase the street price of the kit.  Utilizing cloning technology like what Round2 is currently using, you would be able to provide a duplicate of the kit for reasonable price.  It would give modelers a chance to buy and build the kit instead of spending hundreds for an original, of which many would not build anyway, due to the price and collectibility. I will have to argue that there is a big nostalgia market out there for seeing these models being made again.  A super detailed modern tool Cadillac would be great, but if easier money can be made by just cloning them as is with all of their faults while tapping into the nostalgia market as a jump off point, then why not do it that way

Quote

The 1963 Nova kit was produced exactly how the original one came back then; they didn't make a new engine and a new trailer out of whole cloth to make a 2nd version of it.  

How hard would it be to make a “low rider” version out of one of those old Cadillacs?  Some of them already have the small chassis inserts with multiple holes to make various ride heights with the axles.  Adding in a set of smaller wheels/tires on another separate tree to make the low rider would be so easy.  That would be your second "variant” as you say.  The third variant could just be a Coca Cola edition with stickers.  That's what they did to the '63 Nova wagon to make a third variant.

Quote

Also these forums represent the "top" 3-5% of the hobby in terms of interest and "fandom".  They are not an accurate representation of what would actually sell in a retail format.  90-95% of the models sold go via the casual "accidentally found it" Ollie's, Wal*Mart, Hobby Lobby crowd.  I'm guessing while you could generate interest in a 64 Cadillac - perhaps even enough to move the 25-30k kits you'd have to sell to turn a profit off the tooling investment - but saying "CLONED FROM ORIGINAL JOHAN KIT!!" is going to make those people go - Huh? Who? Jo-What? Because while nostalgia sells kits for Round2 for sure, people who were actually teenagers when that kit was new are now in their 70s (my dad graduated HS that year and he's 76)...the nostalgia gravy train has a very finite future.

Well, it’s painfully obvious you don’t like Johan or their subject matter or the possibility of using cloning technology to reproduce those old kits again for model car fans.  That’s okay.  Different strokes for different folks.  Just continue along with the endless race car variants of Nu Nu and Tamiya of specific race cars at a specific race with different livery.  However, I will have to argue, there is a fairly sizable market out there that liked the subject matter of those old Johan kits.  $150-$300 to build a vintage kit is just not cost effective for many and the resin repops are not that much cheaper either.  That's why I suggested using cloning technology to make some of those old Johan kits again.  Obviously, you're dead set against it.  I get it.

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by mikos

[bobthehobbyguy]

Mikos I have one question for you. What do you think that Okey has offer to Round2 and what should Round2 have to pay for that?