Johan 1955, Powell pickup

[bobthehobbyguy]

8 hours ago, John M. said:

It's just a though but Okey Spalding should discuss a deal with Atlantis about producing the Powell PU. It's not as big as Round Two or Revell but Atlantis has more resources than Okey has.

Although a good thought I don't see that this would be a good fit. I don't think Atlantis has the resources to do this and the projects they have been doing. Right now Atlantis is focusing its resources on the parts packs kits and cleaning up and completing tooling for what they have. I definitely don't see the Powell as a full plastic glue kit. 

I think the Powell is more suited to being 3d print. If this is going to happen then Okey is going to have to find the means to fund it.

Additional thought. Since the Powell is 3d printed it might behoove Okey to partner with on of the established 3d printing vendors.

Edited October 2, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy

[bobthehobbyguy]

On 10/7/2023 at 3:44 AM, iangilly said:

I think the reception to the subject is what sealed its faith,  people weren't as excited for the pickup as Oakley thought and then It just happened to be "Stolen"

 

On 9/5/2023 at 1:16 PM, Justin Porter said:

As of right now the whole project has gone dark because of the "stolen test sample." Without question, it's an entirely absurd situation. It's a 3D printed kit. Not resin cast or injection molded, but 3D printed. USCP, Texas 3D Customs, Iceman Collections, and countless others have produced 3D printed kits in greater detail compared to what was shown with the proposed Powell AND with shorter lead times AND with tremendously better promotion. The fact that he can't even pull off this project, which had to have been principally farmed out as far as the 3D modeling and rendering so it was effectively Spaulding bankrolling, rubber-stamping, licensing, and promoting the effort, has got to demonstrate that there's more life in a cafeteria meatloaf than there is at Johan.

I think these posts sum this up well.

Until something more substantial happens I don't see how anyone is going to want to partner on this. 

[mikos]

Okay, so now that the “$200k+ tooling cost” reason has been blown out of the water once and for all courtesy Steve G., what are now the other reasons some of those old Johan kits or their subject matter can not ever be done again as cloned reissues?

Just licensing rights now?

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by mikos

[bobthehobbyguy]

On 9/29/2023 at 9:31 AM, SteveG said:

The odds of seeing any version of the Powell kit from Round2 in mass production are slim to none, just too obscure.  I have no interest it them but I'm betting if the 3D files really still exist then they'll show up in some form sooner or later.  

 Without getting into specifics, I can assure you that our cloned kits and especially the curbside versions don't cost anywhere near 200K to tool up.  Even the 100% All-New Charger R/T was less than that. 

 I highly doubt there will ever be any deal made to bring back any vintage Johan branded kits, however the subject matter is all fair game with proper licensing.   There's lots of examples of kits being cloned in all or part long before 3D technology made it easier and cheaper to accomplish this.   There is certainly hope for an '68 Olds 422 or an AMX or any number of other good subject matter in our future.   You'll just have to wait and see. 

-Steve

Well it sounds like it's not likely round2 would be interested. If Round2 would do an Old 422 or AMX it would be an all new kit. 

I'd say that if the Johan kits were cloned  then Okey needs to crowdfund to do the project as I don't see Mobieus, Revell, or Atlantis doing it. I think that the licensing rights to cloning the kits are just not that valuable and that's the only real thing he has. Okey obviously has very limited financial resources as demonstrated by the Powell truck. Any monetary investment is going to be shouldered by any company he would partner with. Just doesn't make sense when there are better options to pursue.

I wouldn't hold my breath for either the Powell or the cloning any of the Johan kits.

Edited October 9, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy
Clarify

[bobthehobbyguy]

Some questions for those who want to see the Johan kits cloned.

It is doubtful that more than one kit would be cloned to start with. Which kit should be cloned? What should Okey get for the rights to clone that kit?

My guess would be the costs to clone would  be in the same range as the 1968 Coronet because of the engines and opening hoods. Then it has to be determined by market research that sufficient sales are going to justify those costs. Hint it's going to be more than 5,000.

Whether a company would partner or the project would be crowdfunded these questions would be need to be answered. 

Given the situation the best option for Okey would be to clone one kit with crowdfinding.

 

[Can-Con]

Also there would be unending complaining about the quality and detail [read lack there of] of the kit. 

"This is supposed to be a new kit, 

[ why did they put out a kit with no detail in this day and age?]

[ why doesn't it have clear headlights?]

[ why doesn't it have a proper engine, this engine is just a blob!] 

[ place any other complaint you've heard about a reissue here] "

You've all seen it before. If a new kit isn't 100% up to "modern standards" it will be torn apart on social media.

[Motor City]

Were any of the model companies present at the Jo-Han auction?  There probably wasn't much left in good condition.  Round2 already has enough to work on with the vast AMT and MPC tooling.  The model car market isn't nearly as popular as it was in the late 1950s and throughout the 1960s with all of the other entertainment choices out there.  I don't think crowdfunding is a realistic option since it would be impossible to get a consensus on which kit(s) to do.  The nostalgia for old model cars is still there, even though they don't meet the expectations of serious builders.       

[bobthehobbyguy]

22 minutes ago, Can-Con said:

Also there would be unending complaining about the quality and detail [read lack there of] of the kit. 

"This is supposed to be a new kit, 

[ why did they put out a kit with no detail in this day and age?]

[ why doesn't it have clear headlights?]

[ why doesn't it have a proper engine, this engine is just a blob!] 

[ place any other complaint you've heard about a reissue here] "

You've all seen it before. If a new kit isn't 100% up to "modern standards" it will be torn apart on social media.

Another common complaints will be too shallow interiors.

 

Ah but that's where the magic word nostalgia is so important. Every kit will include a set of magic rose colored nostalgia glasses.

I think it makes far more sense to develop all new tooling deigned to modern standards. That tooling can be designed to accommodate multiple versions which makes far more financial sense.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy

[bobthehobbyguy]

3 minutes ago, Motor City said:

Were any of the model companies present at the Jo-Han auction?  There probably wasn't much left in good condition.  Round2 already has enough to work on with the vast AMT and MPC tooling.  The model car market isn't nearly as popular as it was in the late 1950s and throughout the 1960s with all of the other entertainment choices out there.  I don't think crowdfunding is a realistic option since it would be impossible to get a consensus on which kit(s) to do.  The nostalgia for old model cars is still there, even though they don't meet the expectations of serious builders.       

I agree. I only mentioned the the option of crowd funding because I don't see any of the existing companies getting involved. As said don't see this happening!!

[bobthehobbyguy]

This discussion of Okey partnering with one of the model companies reminds me of the story of stone soup.

Some travelers come to a village, carrying nothing more than an empty cooking pot. Upon their arrival, the villagers are unwilling to share any of their food stores with the very hungry travelers. Then the travelers go to a stream and fill the pot with water, drop a large stone in it, and place it over a fire. One of the villagers becomes curious and asks what they are doing. The travelers answer that they are making "stone soup", which tastes wonderful and which they would be delighted to share with the villager, although it still needs a little bit of garnish, which they are missing, to improve the flavor.

The villager, who anticipates enjoying a share of the soup, does not mind parting with a few carrots, so these are added to the soup. Another villager walks by, inquiring about the pot, and the travelers again mention their stone soup which has not yet reached its full potential. More and more villagers walk by, each adding another ingredient, like potatoes, onions, cabbages, peas, celery, tomatoes, sweetcorn, meat (like chicken, pork and beef), milk, butter, salt and pepper. Finally, the stone (being inedible) is removed from the pot, and a delicious and nourishing pot of soup is enjoyed by travelers and villagers alike. Although the travelers have thus tricked the villagers into sharing their food with them, they have successfully transformed it into a tasty meal which they share with the donors.

To me Okey's rights to license the kits is the stone. 

[niteowl7710]

On 10/8/2023 at 7:18 PM, mikos said:

Okay, so now that the “$200k+ tooling cost” reason has been blown out of the water once and for all courtesy Steve G., what are now the other reasons some of those old Johan kits or their subject matter can not ever be done again as cloned reissues?

Just licensing rights now?

 

 

 

I'd wonder what "Steve's" all-in cost is though, as the industry standard $250k for a new tool (which was back in 2018 and Covid and inflation have done a number on certain costs) is the whole thing, not just the tooling steel. It's the R&D (be it 3D scan of a kit, 3D scan of a 1:1, or the old measuring with a black and white graduated grid), conversion of the data to CAD, someone who takes the CAD and splits it into a model kit by separating the CAD into pieces and designing all the parts runners and how the parts are alloted to them. The tooling steel, cutting the tool, EDMing the tool.  Artwork for the instructions, box art and decals. Producing 5-8k sets of instructions, boxes and decal sheets. Producing the kit (injection) and production & packaging the kit. Trans-Pacific and then Intermodal U.S. Shipping Costs. Oh yeah and of course licensing.

Edited October 10, 2023 by niteowl7710

[bobthehobbyguy]

15 hours ago, niteowl7710 said:

I'd wonder what "Steve's" all-in cost is though, as the industry standard $250k for a new tool (which was back in 2018 and Covid and inflation have done a number on certain costs) is the whole thing, not just the tooling steel. It's the R&D (be it 3D scan of a kit, 3D scan of a 1:1, or the old measuring with a black and white graduated grid), conversion of the data to CAD, someone who takes the CAD and splits it into a model kit by separating the CAD into pieces and designing all the parts runners and how the parts are alloted to them. The tooling steel, cutting the tool, EDMing the tool.  Artwork for the instructions, box art and decals. Producing 5-8k sets of instructions, boxes and decal sheets. Producing the kit (injection) and production & packaging the kit. Trans-Pacific and then Intermodal U.S. Shipping Costs. Oh yeah and of course licensing.

Good points. And the reality is when all those costs are added up a sufficient volume has to be sold to get those costs back plus a profit. Finally marketing research is necessary to determine that the sales volume is there and not based on a hunch that the sales are there. No business can afford to lose money.

Additional thought. The R&D is only one part of making a kit. The remaining costs are going to be the same regardless of the method to reproduce a kit.

Edited October 10, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy
Added thought

[Justin Porter]

On 10/8/2023 at 7:18 PM, mikos said:

Okay, so now that the “$200k+ tooling cost” reason has been blown out of the water once and for all courtesy Steve G., what are now the other reasons some of those old Johan kits or their subject matter can not ever be done again as cloned reissues?

Just licensing rights now?

 

 

 

Setting aside the "cloned" idiocy, let's look at the Johan tooling list and see what we have. 

Firstly, let's set aside the Johan funny cars. Revell rolled out a pair of the most accurate and most nicely engineered vintage funny car kits ever tooled in their Chi-Town Hustler/Hawaiian pair of Chargers and they were considered sales bombs. As such, the likelihood of new funny car tooling is especially low and probably industry wide. 

Secondly, the promo based tooling. Industry logic will hold that the four doors are best left to the resin throwers, so that leaves the two doors. There's certainly some interesting material there. The Studebaker Larks, the '56 Pontiacs, the Dodge Phoenix, etc. However, there's really only one company tooling up 1950's American cars and that's Moebius. Moebius themselves have just come through an acquisition - becoming part of the Pegasus Hobbies brand - and are heavily focused on 60's production based drag cars and 60's and 70's pickups which have proven most lucrative for them. 

So, lastly, we have to look at Johan's regular kit line and determine what 1960's muscle cars they produced that would have the most general appeal. If I were to point to three Johan subject that have the most potential for newly tooled kits, it would be the following. 

1966 Oldsmobile Toronado - the Toronado is a combination of a technical curiosity and a grand American classic. Further, Jay Leno's own custom Toronado has done a good job casting the car into the modern public spotlight. Further, the outcries about the reissued MPC Californian point to there being at least some demand among older builders for a stock Toronado. 

1964 Cadillac Coupe De Ville - full size American cars generally do quite well as tooling showcases and the Hasegawa curbside Cadillac maintains solid sales despite its archaic origins. The big Cadillac also has maintained a strong presence in the lowrider, custom, and even pro touring scenes given how appropriate the car looks slammed to the pavement. Further, Revell's own Custom Cadillac Lowrider - which has no replica stock pretensions - remains an excellent seller well after its introduction. 

1971 AMC Javelin/AMX - of all of the Johan AMC's, the most potential lies in the '71. Drag racing, road racing, police pursuit, iconic modern pro tourers, there's plenty to justify all-new tooling of this famous love it/hate it pony car. Besides that, this has proven a surprisingly good year for love it/hate it pony cars when it comes to model kit sales. 

[bobthehobbyguy]

Great analysis. Lots of factors to consider what has  potential for producing a successful new kit.

[ChrisBcritter]

Justin, I'd throw in the '62 and '63 Dodge and Plymouth - large variety of drag and (for the Plymouth mostly) NASCAR versions possible.

[Can-Con]

On 10/9/2023 at 12:35 PM, bobthehobbyguy said:

This discussion of Okey partnering with one of the model companies reminds me of the story of stone soup.

Some travelers come to a village, carrying nothing more than an empty cooking pot. Upon their arrival, the villagers are unwilling to share any of their food stores with the very hungry travelers. Then the travelers go to a stream and fill the pot with water, drop a large stone in it, and place it over a fire. One of the villagers becomes curious and asks what they are doing. The travelers answer that they are making "stone soup", which tastes wonderful and which they would be delighted to share with the villager, although it still needs a little bit of garnish, which they are missing, to improve the flavor.

The villager, who anticipates enjoying a share of the soup, does not mind parting with a few carrots, so these are added to the soup. Another villager walks by, inquiring about the pot, and the travelers again mention their stone soup which has not yet reached its full potential. More and more villagers walk by, each adding another ingredient, like potatoes, onions, cabbages, peas, celery, tomatoes, sweetcorn, meat (like chicken, pork and beef), milk, butter, salt and pepper. Finally, the stone (being inedible) is removed from the pot, and a delicious and nourishing pot of soup is enjoyed by travelers and villagers alike. Although the travelers have thus tricked the villagers into sharing their food with them, they have successfully transformed it into a tasty meal which they share with the donors.

To me Okey's rights to license the kits is the stone. 

OK, I'm reading a lot about "licensing rights" , , BUT, , Does Okey actually have any licensing rights to the likeness and names of the cars from the car companies or does he just have licensing rights to the "JoHan" name?

Anyone know that for sure?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Can-Con

[bobthehobbyguy]

Okey only would have the rights to the Johan kits. From below post the manufacturer licensing would have to be established. Any licensing agreement with the manufacturers have expired a long time ago.

That's why the idea of cloning the Johan kits is so ludicrous by partnering  with Okey.  Okey is bringing virtually nothing to the table.

 

On 9/27/2023 at 7:05 AM, niteowl7710 said:

The short answer is no, having licensing to produce a diecast doesn't not automatically grant you the ability to produce a plastic model kit, or even a different scale diecast. Furthermore having a "master" license from one of the Big 3 - the big expensive proposition that gets you through the door to produce your first item from their catalog and allowing you to put the "Ford Approved" holograph on the box doesn't grant you automatic license to create anything else from a given manufacturer without paying additional licensing and getting an entirely separate top to bottom approval of the project. In this sense a "project" can be the entire series of kits expected from a given tool. The example would be Revell making the '71-73 Mustang kit series, you'd approach Ford for licensing approval for the Boss 351, Mach 1, and theoretical Gone in 60 Seconds and '73 Mustang as one singular project before cutting the tooling. 

In the current environment the maximum length of a "Master" license is 3 years at which point you have to renew it and of course pay for another term. Of the Big 3 GM is the only one that maintains their own in-house licensing, Stellantis uses IMG, and Ford uses an 3rd Party firm in the UK.

There is an overall "ease" in being an established customer of a licensor they get to know your staff and your products and in some cases the approvals are more of a going through the motions, and making sure all the tradedress on the box art is correct and whatnot, but you're still paying an individual licensing charge on each item.

 

[Can-Con]

3 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Okey only would have the rights to the Johan kits. From below post the manufacturer licensing would have to be established. Any licensing agreement with the manufacturers have expired a long time ago.

That's why the idea of cloning the Johan kits is so ludicrous by partnering  with Okey.  Okey is bringing virtually nothing to the table.

 

 

That's what I was thinking.

[niteowl7710]

3 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Okey only would have the rights to the Johan kits. From below post the manufacturer licensing would have to be established. Any licensing agreement with the manufacturers have expired a long time ago.

That's why the idea of cloning the Johan kits is so ludicrous by partnering  with Okey.  Okey is bringing virtually nothing to the table.

 

 

The only thing Okey has the "rights" to is the name and tradedress of JoHan. Tradedress being the logos and labels of the company. Otherwise he physically owns a pile of scrap steel, which I suspect these many years later is now utterly useless more so than it was when he got ahold of it. Okey has been flying very close to the wind for the entire time since he spent all the money to get what he got and I wonder how he's managed to preserve and protect that tooling from rusting away into the netherworld. Not that it really matters since none of it is complete to begin with and he doesn't seem to be in possession of the few pieces that were run last for the production of the Testors kits.

[bobthehobbyguy]

Thanks for the interesting information.

Sounds to me that licensing the rights to the old kits is not practical becuase he really doesn't own them.

Another reason for any of the modeling companies to start with a clean sheet of paper. 

I think you are right that the tooling is toast if it could even be used.

It would be interesting to know more about the Details of the Testors kits. I do know that some of the kits had a lot of flash and the kit quality was poor.

 

15 minutes ago, niteowl7710 said:

The only thing Okey has the "rights" to is the name and tradedress of JoHan. Tradedress being the logos and labels of the company. Otherwise he physically owns a pile of scrap steel, which I suspect these many years later is now utterly useless more so than it was when he got ahold of it. Okey has been flying very close to the wind for the entire time since he spent all the money to get what he got and I wonder how he's managed to preserve and protect that tooling from rusting away into the netherworld. Not that it really matters since none of it is complete to begin with and he doesn't seem to be in possession of the few pieces that were run last for the production of the Testors kits.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy

[bobthehobbyguy]

Hopefully we can now be done with the topic of cloning the Johan kits.

And back to the Powell. It still remains to be seen if this is ever going to see the light of day.

[Brian Austin]

It's been pointed out in the past that all the manufacturers have passed on the JoHan tooling.

[Richard Bartrop]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't one of the big problems with the Jo-han dies is that there are no machines that can use them?

[bobthehobbyguy]

It is my understanding that the Johan molds were designed with non standard tooling.

In 1998 and 2006 Testors did reissues of several of the Johan kits( 3 of which was the Comet , Barracuda, and the AMX).  Maybe somebody could give more details about the Testor's reissues. Obviously at that time there was a means to produce those kits.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy

[Motor City]

I was in the Jo-Han office building and their nearby plant in 1974.  They had primarily made injection-molded parts for the auto industry, but I don't know what parts.  The model car tooling was apparently designed in a similar manner as they did for auto parts.  From what I've read on this forum, the tooling was incompatible with the injection-molding machines used at the model car companies.