Johan 1955, Powell pickup

[Chuck Most]

On 4/29/2023 at 7:35 PM, bobthehobbyguy said:

Well it's been more than 6 months since this was announced. The ideal place to kick this off would have been the nnleast.  I have to think that he doesn't have the money to make any of the Powell kits. Unfortunately this looks like a lot of wishful thinking at this point.

 

You must have missed this...

[ChrisBcritter]

Well that just sucks. 

[bobthehobbyguy]

It begs the question why would you leave something that important like a  master unintended in this day and age.

[Justin Porter]

On 5/1/2023 at 6:04 PM, Casey said:

Maybe we should just let it die, like JO-HAN did in 1992.

It's just kind of sad what become of JO-HAN, even it was only the name and a bunch of leftover, N.O.S. parts.

Oh good heavens YES let's do this! No more "I wish someone had the Johan tooling" and lots more "I wish someone had the licensing for new tooling." 

[jjsipes]

I never heard of the Powell until seeing this thread. Then I go to the AACA Spring East Show in Gettysburg, PA and see one in person. Here's to hoping that everything gets returned to Okey.

[1st 700 Quad]

"including the bathroom wall (which I found a fitting statement on JoHan under his guidance)"

Now that's just rude!

[niteowl7710]

On 6/22/2023 at 1:26 PM, 1st 700 Quad said:

"including the bathroom wall (which I found a fitting statement on JoHan under his guidance)"

Now that's just rude! Mo

*yawn*

Yeah, yeah he's had the flaming tattered rements of JoHan for TWENTY THREE YEARS. He sold a handful of kits in 2005 he cobbled together with leftover NoS parts from Seville with some new decals. 

...and that's it. It's a dumpster fire...

He's been promising all sorts of nonsense for two decades now, and while I'm certainly sympathetic to his plight of having his masters stolen, I'm not sure what having the 1/24 test shot lost had anything to do with his ability to sell them at NNL East - per the above posted excuse. So you don't have a built up test shot...and that effects sales how? People have been buying resin transkits (since that's what the 3D Powell is as it fits the AMT 41 Plymouth) without seeing a semi-built example since resin transkits became a thing. The Too Many Projects guys sold boat loads of bodies in the next room and there aren't even chassis or interiors for those things let alone built examples of them.

Edited June 25, 2023 by niteowl7710

[Motor City]

The only hope for Jo-Han/Johan is if someone else with money buys the rights to the name and scans unbuilt kits and the non-warping promos from 1964-1979.  

[bobthehobbyguy]

52 minutes ago, Motor City said:

The only hope for Jo-Han/Johan is if someone else with money buys the rights to the name and scans unbuilt kits and the non-warping promos from 1964-1979.  

Actually it isn't that simple. Basically the name would be all those rights would be. The licensing from the manufacturers would still have to be obtained. Plus you would have to buy original mint kits to scan. Then you have the cost for scanning and tooling.  Also other than the bodies the rest of the kit would need some upgrades.  Just don't see that all of the expense would be justified. Remember the prices on eBay only reflect what some people are willing to pay becuase there are a limited number of kits available. If you really want one of the Johan kits then you are going to have to pay a hefty price.

If any of the old Johan subject matter would be retooled it would be better to 3d scan the actual car and create an all new kit. Again due to limited appeal the cost cannot be justified.

[Motor City]

6 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Actually it isn't that simple...

As explained numerous times on this forum, a lot of steps are involved in bringing any kit to market.  My point was the current owner doesn't have the financial resources to resurrect Jo-Han or it would have already happened.  Jo-Han did many subjects that would only be cost effective to do by scanning originals kits and promos as a start of the process of developing a new kit.  

[Justin Porter]

16 hours ago, Motor City said:

As explained numerous times on this forum, a lot of steps are involved in bringing any kit to market.  My point was the current owner doesn't have the financial resources to resurrect Jo-Han or it would have already happened.  Jo-Han did many subjects that would only be cost effective to do by scanning originals kits and promos as a start of the process of developing a new kit.  

If Special Hobby can make a business case for an all new, beautifully tooled 1/48th kit that includes photoetch, resin, and pre-cut vinyl canopy masks of the Bugatti 100P - an airplane of which there is one example that never flew - and have it retail for less than $40 then there is positively no excuse why there couldn't be a newly tooled 1/24th scale '71 AMC Javelin done to the same quality level as the Revell '66 Pontiac GTO which debuted in 1998. 

The "it's the only way to do it cost effectively" line is bunk and it just takes one brief glimpse to the wealth of new tooling in every segment of the hobby that isn't classic American cars to understand just how badly the people who build classic American cars are allowing themselves to get hosed.

[bobthehobbyguy]

I agree with the 1971 Javelin. I could see it being dor Round 2 but it would be 1/25th scale.

Just don't see buying the Johan name would be worth much as the name wouldn't be known by a lot of modelers and for the little you be asquiring.. Besides for as long as Okey has had it he would have sold the rights . I suspect he wanted too much for it he rights. As others have said I think that this is dead issue at this point and not worth wasting time on this. If you're going to fantasize dream of hitting the lottery.

A letter to Mobieus or Round 2 for that Javelin kit would be much more productive.

[Justin Porter]

21 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

I agree with the 1971 Javelin. I could see it being dor Round 2 but it would be 1/25th scale.

Just don't see buying the Johan name would be worth much as the name wouldn't be known by a lot of modelers and for the little you be asquiring.. Besides for as long as Okey has had it he would have sold the rights . I suspect he wanted too much for it he rights. As others have said I think that this is dead issue at this point and not worth wasting time on this. If you're going to fantasize dream of hitting the lottery.

A letter to Mobieus or Round 2 for that Javelin kit would be much more productive.

I have zero interest in Round 2 tooling a Javelin. Revell or Moebius are acceptable because they're interested in producing 21st century kits. There's more of a chance of NuNu or Belkits producing an acceptable Javelin than there is that Round 2 would produce an all-new kit comparable to their own tooling from twenty five years ago.

[bobthehobbyguy]

Round 2 would have to create an all new kit. The Javelin kits they did were just the Johan kit in an AMT box.

Edited June 29, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy

[Justin Porter]

7 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Round 2 would have to create an all new kit. The Javelin kits they did were just the Johan kit in an AMT box.

They would. I don't have faith that they would create a MODERN all-new kit. I'm not asking for the world, either. The new tool Revell '71 Mustang is a perfect example of the standard all domestic auto kit companies should be held to in terms of chassis, engine, and interior detail at a sub-$40 price tag. I understand how pleased many builders are with the so-called "Craftsman Plus" line of kits. I'm not. I find them wholly dissatisfying and mildly insulting.

[Luc Janssens]

16 hours ago, Justin Porter said:

I have zero interest in Round 2 tooling a Javelin. Revell or Moebius are acceptable because they're interested in producing 21st century kits. There's more of a chance of NuNu or Belkits producing an acceptable Javelin than there is that Round 2 would produce an all-new kit comparable to their own tooling from twenty five years ago.

Think Round-2 got a pretty good idea on how well an AMC kit would sell, just by checking the sales figures of their re-run of the 1/20th scale ex MPC AMX kit. As for Round-2 unable to produce a full detail kit, well just look at their new Charger kit.

What I'm trying to say here, have a bit of faith....

[Justin Porter]

2 hours ago, Luc Janssens said:

Think Round-2 got a pretty good idea on how well an AMC kit would sell, just by checking the sales figures of their re-run of the 1/20th scale ex MPC AMX kit. As for Round-2 unable to produce a full detail kit, well just look at their new Charger kit.

What I'm trying to say here, have a bit of faith....

The new Charger and Bronco are both excellent kits and are a big part of my frustration with the Craftsman Plus kits. They're a demonstration of the ability and the capacity to tool modern kits. I have not said they are unable. I have said they are actively choosing to not do so for classic domestic cars. I do understand that even modifications to Mueller era kits - i.e both the full-bumper '70 1/2 Camaro project and the "Supernatural" '67 Impala four door - proved to be far more challenging projects than originally anticipated. However, their direct competitors (Moebius, Salvinos JR, Revell) continue to invest in new and modified modern tooling to say nothing of indirect competitors who may not occupy the same subject matter but are still wholly within the same genre (Hasegawa, ICM, Belkits, NuNu, Aoshima, D Modelkits, Tamiya).

Military modeling doesn't have defenders of raised panel lines, open sponsons, incongruous pilot figures with incorrect helmets/suits in place of a full seat, and the numerous other vagaries of obsolete kits when they appear in modern tooling. Why should auto modelers expect poorer treatment and certainly why should auto modelers defend a company that CAN and HAS tooled brilliant kits but now chooses not to as if it's their best friend?

Also, circling this back to Johan's truck as opposed to my routinely ground axe, I honestly do hope that this is the final "rattle of the bones" for Johan. Yes it's a storied name but it's earned a solemn death as opposed to Spaulding putting lipstick on the corpse every other big show with big promises of something right around the corner. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Justin Porter

[larman]

2 hours ago, Justin Porter said:

Also, circling this back to Johan's truck as opposed to my routinely ground axe, I honestly do hope that this is the final "rattle of the bones" for Johan. 

 

I agree. Honestly, I don't understand the hubbub around Johan kits. And, is it going to matter at all if this Powell truck ever sees the light of day? Over the years I have had MANY Johan kits, from original issue 60's cars to the 80's era reissues. IF you want certain cars, I get it, they are the only game in town. Also, they tend to have accurate body proportions. There were some pretty detailed and nice kits, such as the funny car kits and the Chrysler Turbine Car, but the majority of what they made had lackluster chassis, interior and engine detail. Not to mention the later stuff was molded in weird, hard to paint colors and some had excessive flash. They also often had parts that were incorrect for the car, such as Plymouth interiors in Dodge cars,etc. Ultimately, I think people wax nostalgic and they bring the money on Ebay because they are perseved as finite, and that drives the price, I really doubt if they were readily available that we would be having this perpetual discussion.

[bobthehobbyguy]

The biggest problem is that people equate the prices on eBay as an indication that the kits are going to be a financial success.  Auctions prices only indicate that there were multiple people that were willing to spend the money and nothing more. The basis for producing a kit is there is sufficient demand to get a return on investment on the costs of producing a kit otherwise its not going to happen.

Although scanning and restoring or creating older kits is a little less expensive there are still substantial cost in producing those kits. And again there has to be enough demand to justify those costs.

[Rob Hall]

I'm glad I have the Jo-han kits that I have, I particularly like their Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles...along w/ the AMCs and Mopars.  This Powell truck is of no interest to me, weird and obscure, a really odd choice (I guess he went with it because the licensing was easy?).  

[tim boyd]

23 hours ago, Justin Porter said:

The new Charger and Bronco are both excellent kits and are a big part of my frustration with the Craftsman Plus kits. They're a demonstration of the ability and the capacity to tool modern kits. I have not said they are unable. I have said they are actively choosing to not do so for classic domestic cars. I do understand that even modifications to Mueller era kits - i.e both the full-bumper '70 1/2 Camaro project and the "Supernatural" '67 Impala four door - proved to be far more challenging projects than originally anticipated. However, their direct competitors (Moebius, Salvinos JR, Revell) continue to invest in new and modified modern tooling to say nothing of indirect competitors who may not occupy the same subject matter but are still wholly within the same genre (Hasegawa, ICM, Belkits, NuNu, Aoshima, D Modelkits, Tamiya).

Military modeling doesn't have defenders of raised panel lines, open sponsons, incongruous pilot figures with incorrect helmets/suits in place of a full seat, and the numerous other vagaries of obsolete kits when they appear in modern tooling. Why should auto modelers expect poorer treatment and certainly why should auto modelers defend a company that CAN and HAS tooled brilliant kits but now chooses not to as if it's their best friend?

Also, circling this back to Johan's truck as opposed to my routinely ground axe, I honestly do hope that this is the final "rattle of the bones" for Johan. Yes it's a storied name but it's earned a solemn death as opposed to Spaulding putting lipstick on the corpse every other big show with big promises of something right around the corner. 

Justin, I understand your point of view here, but my take is that the business case for doing all-new tooling (to today's standards/expectations) of such relatively obscure topics as a 1969 Coronet. 1964 Cutlass, 1963 Chevy II, et al, simply does not exist for a modern business enterprise like Round 2.  So, for me, having an improved version of a nearly unobtainable/unaffordable topic like a 1968 Coronet R/T convertible, imperfect as it may be (compared to today's newly tooled kits) is much preferable to not having it at all.  There is also a certain nostalgia factor for the more, ahem, mature hobbyists among us who thoroughly enjoy being able to build a kit with today's supplies and techiniques that we butchered the first time around decades ago.  The case could be made, as you point out, that Moebius is having success with equally obscure topics, but in their case, they are doing subjects that were never kitted in the first place, and that that presumably drives a higher sales volume and justifies (from a business case point of view) their higher price. 

The joker factor in all this is the new Revell Boss 351 kit.  My preliminary take is that this one is really going to ruffle the hobby kit market given the level of authenticity they have achieved combined with what I hear may be a highly competitive, below the market price point.  Of course, a Boss 351 will be a much more popular topic than Round 2's cloned kit topics, so it is not an apples-to-apples comparison, but this is going to be really interesting to watch, nonetheless.   

Always appreciate hearing your point of view.....Best...TB 

Edited June 30, 2023 by tim boyd

[Robberbaron]

On 6/29/2023 at 11:01 AM, Luc Janssens said:

Think Round-2 got a pretty good idea on how well an AMC kit would sell, just by checking the sales figures of their re-run of the 1/20th scale ex MPC AMX kit. As for Round-2 unable to produce a full detail kit, well just look at their new Charger kit.

What I'm trying to say here, have a bit of faith....

The MPC AMX might not be a good indicator, just due to the oddball 1/20 scale (thanks, George Toteff...).  I'm not a huge AMC fan, but I would have bought one if it wasn't for that.  I suspect many other people share my sentiment.

However, for AMC in general, they've also run the restored 76, 75, 74 Gremlins, plus both the MPC Pacer (coupe) and the AMT Pacer (wagon).  I've seen quite a few built Gremlins posted to "under glass" on this forum, not so many of the Pacers.

[1st 700 Quad]

On 6/28/2023 at 7:38 PM, Justin Porter said:

 Revell or Moebius are acceptable because they're interested in producing 21st century kits.

I may be in the minority but I can't get excited about building models of cars I pass on the street every day. They just bore me to tears. I want to build something out of the ordinary that you don't see EVERY day.

[Brian Austin]

Some of us are fond of Johan for the "oddball" subjects, the Pontiacs, the Oldses, the Cadillacs and the Studebakers.

[bobthehobbyguy]

Its been almost 2 months. Is there any more news on the powell?