Johan 1955, Powell pickup

[Justin Porter]

Secret agenda? Worried readily available reissues would cause Johan kit collections to depreciate? My guy, Occam's Razor. If Moebius fulfilled my wish and kitted a run of AMX's with interiors, grilles, and graphic treatments for '68 through '70 plus a Super Stock release then any of the godawful Johan kits would be rendered nearly 100% worthless.

The reason I don't want Johan kits cloned is the same reason I don't want AMT kits or MPC kits cloned. It's the same reason I'm glad Aoshima kitted their AE86 Trueno and Hasegawa kitted their AW11 Toyota MR2. The old kits were AWFUL and need replaced by MODERN kits.

No one with the Eduard 1/72nd scale Fw190 in their hand finds themselves pining for Frog or Matchbox. The same SHOULD hold true for car modeling.

That said, I do fully understand Steve G's position. He has a fixed budget and a need to get product out the door. I'm not personally a fan of the shortcut Round 2 is opting for, but it's being done with transparency and with a specific audience in mind that I acknowledge I personally am not a part of.

[Brian Austin]

Someone already has cloned a JoHan Cadillac (1966).

Hasegawa.  🙂

[Rodent]

3 hours ago, Justin Porter said:

If Moebius fulfilled my wish and kitted a run of AMX's with interiors, grilles, and graphic treatments for '68 through '70 plus a Super Stock release then any of the godawful Johan kits would be rendered nearly 100% worthless.

Given Moebius' record with the Ford pickups, They would be toy-like and full of warped parts.

That said, about the only thing from the JoHan catalog I would welcome back would be the Javelins. Revell needs to treat these like the Boss 351 and do an all new rendition of them. The JoHan versions aren't worth bringing back.

The AMT 68-69 Chrysler B-bodies could stand to have the wonky bodies corrected and could be done as 68/69 Roadrunner and GTX, and add a 1970 version with a Superbird.

The JoHan 1931 Cadillacs were nice as were the Mercedes. Not sure what the market would be these days.

[bobthehobbyguy]

The way I see it 6 months from now there will still be no Powell kit.

The last time any Johan kits were produced was in 1998.  25 years later nothing more has been accomplished becuase there has been no effort to do any more with them.

And now because of 3d scanning there are some that expect Round2 to buy the rights to produce those kits again. And of course Round2 is expected to do all of the heavy lifting for this grand opportunity. And becuase I state this blasphemy I'm a non believer who hates Johan, their subject matter, and am trying to artificially keep up the high prices for Johan kits.

I would be truly annoyed if Round2 considered this nonsense.

I want them to pursue the products they believe will do the best for them. It's been stated they have parts of the 1928 Ford sedan that could be resurrected with 3d scanning.

Just my final thoughts on the subject. 

 

 

[Richard Bartrop]

19 hours ago, Rodent said:

The JoHan 1931 Cadillacs were nice as were the Mercedes. Not sure what the market would be these days.

The European market still seems interested in pre WW2 subjects.

[mikos]

On 9/23/2023 at 5:47 PM, Justin Porter said:

Well, it’s obvious you’re pretty much at the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to what you’d like seeing reissued or produced by the model manufacturers.  You hate what Round2 is currently offering and you simply outright despise Johan.  On the other hand, I like what they’re currently doing and I hope we see a lot more of those old crusty cruddy simplified kits as you call them.  

Guess what?  I think a lot people must agree with me at least with their dollars because Round2 seems to be enjoying stellar sales success with their recent offerings.  Just look at the ‘63 Nova wagon for example.   If sales were in the dumpster and nobody wanted them because they didn’t have Nu Nu or Tamiya level of detail, they wouldn’t be doing more of them.  However, it seems there are more customers like me than customers like you, particularly in the U.S. market, because they are planning on doing more cloned kits of this nature in the future.

Quote

No one with the Eduard 1/72nd scale Fw190 in their hand finds themselves pining for Frog or Matchbox. The same SHOULD hold true for car modeling.

That’s your opinion.  What you think SHOULD hold true is not what is actually selling by the truck loads.   Apparently, Round2 is having a lot of success with these recent cloned up kit reissues so there is a market for them, a big market.

Quote

That said, I do fully understand Steve G's position. He has a fixed budget and a need to get product out the door. I'm not personally a fan of the shortcut Round 2 is opting for, but it's being done with transparency and with a specific audience in mind that I acknowledge I personally am not a part of.

These short cuts, as you call them, allow consumers to have access to kits that were thought long ago missing, destroyed or simply just too expensive to buy and build on the collector market.  Except for their limited detail, the bodies were typically dead nuts accurate due to the promo tooling most of them were based upon. If that means we can get a lot more kits of this vintage than just 1 or 2 new tools every year, I am all for it.  It’s very clear to me that it’s less expensive to clone an old kit than it is to tool up a brand one with modern detail.

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by mikos

[mikos]

On 9/24/2023 at 10:00 AM, bobthehobbyguy said:

The way I see it 6 months from now there will still be no Powell kit.

The last time any Johan kits were produced was in 1998.  25 years later nothing more has been accomplished becuase there has been no effort to do any more with them.

And now because of 3d scanning there are some that expect Round2 to buy the rights to produce those kits again. And of course Round2 is expected to do all of the heavy lifting for this grand opportunity. And becuase I state this blasphemy I'm a non believer who hates Johan, their subject matter, and am trying to artificially keep up the high prices for Johan kits.

I would be truly annoyed if Round2 considered this nonsense.

I want them to pursue the products they believe will do the best for them. It's been stated they have parts of the 1928 Ford sedan that could be resurrected with 3d scanning.

Just my final thoughts on the subject. 

 

 

What nonsense? I, like a lot of others would love to see some of those Johan kits produced again.  It’s rather obvious to me that no one is going to make a modern tool kit of a ‘65 Cadillac Coupe Deville, or ‘66 Olds Toronado. So, why not use cloning technology to copy what was already done and reissue them again.  It would be less expensive and the business case would be more favorable due to the lower costs involved in a project like that.

Also, I think what you and Justin fail to realize is that there is a lot of built up nostalgia associated with these types of kits.  A lot of people would buy one just for the fact they remember buying/building one as a kid.  The Boomer and X gen market.  A new modern tool wouldn’t have that and it would significantly be more expensive to tool up a modern kit like that compared to cloning an already existing example.   Round2 is proving it can be done and it can be done within budget constraints and licensing requirements.

Edited September 28, 2023 by mikos

[mikos]

On 9/23/2023 at 4:47 PM, bobthehobbyguy said:

Mikos I have one question for you. What do you think that Okey has offer to Round2 and what should Round2 have to pay for that?

Okey has the rights to the name and I believe there is enough of a nostalgia factor in that name to sell it to Round2.  Cloning some of those old (Johan) kits under the Johan name would be the best way to do it IMO.  

Of course, you can probably do it without, I suppose.  However, you would lose a big part of the nostalgia aspect like how the MPC/AMT brand name is utilized by Round2.

Edited September 28, 2023 by mikos

[bobthehobbyguy]

It is total nonsense from a financial stand point.

 Okey has very little to offer.

 For every Johan kit that Round2 would produce it will cost two hundred thousand or more dollars.

           That is from a defunct company name that would have little meaning to most modelers today.

            And the rights to the kits that were produced in the seventies and are basically glorified promos.

 The prices on eBay only reflect a dwindling supply and buyers who are more than likely collectors than builders.

The typical kit costs aro7nd 250k to produce which was it cost round2 to do the restore on the chevy nova wagon. They got 3 varations out of it.

The two promos probably cost what a full kit would becuase there were fewer parts involved.

The typical kit msrp is $40. From recent discussions Round2 costs and profit is around ten dollars and the shelf msrp would end up around $40. The kits have to sell ienough to make those num ers to work.

 

 i sincerely doubt that nostalgia is going to sell enough kits to warrant what it would cost to produce those kits. Sorry but you are over rating the value of nostalgia.  Plus the Johan clones would only be one version kits and those kits will be closer to 200k plus to produce. And i don't see sufficent volumes to meet the investment.

Finally given all this I really can't see why Round2 would want to go down this path. It would.be up to Okey to find a partner and I doubt any one would risk the venture with somebody that can't produce a 3d printed body or kit and hasn't managed to do anything with what they have had in 25 years. At this point doing a state of the scanned kit more sense given the slight difference in cost to produce and that makes the scanning of obsolete kits a mute point.

Continue to believe what you want but as I've said Round2 has their own projects lined up to do. Who knows I might be surprised and the Powell truck might show up in 6 months but I wouldnt hold my breath for it.

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy
Added thoughts

[mikos]

2 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

It is total nonsense from a financial stand point.

 Okey has very little to offer.

 For every Johan kit that Round2 would produce it will cost two hundred thousand or more dollars.

           That is from a defunct company name that would have little meaning to most modelers today.

            And the rights to the kits that were produced in the seventies and are basically glorified promos.

 The prices on eBay only reflect a dwindling supply and buyers who are more than likely collectors than builders.

 i sincerely doubt that nostalgia is going to sell enough kits to warrant what it would cost to produce those kits. Sorry but you are over rating the value of nostalgia. 

Finally given all this I really can't see why Round2 would want to go down this path. It would.be up to Okey to find a partner and I doubt any one would risk the venture with somebody that can't produce a 3d printed body or kit and hasn't managed to do anything with what they have had in 25 years. At this point doing a state of the scanned kit more sense given the slight difference in cost to produce and that makes the scanning of obsolete kits a mute point.

Continue to believe what you want but as I've said Round2 has their own projects lined up to do. Who knows I might be surprised and the Powell truck might show up in 6 months but I wouldnt hold my breath for it.

 

Where are you getting $200k+ for each cloned kit to be produced?  I don’t think it’s costing Round2 $200k+ per model kit tooling for the cloned kits that they have done.  I think you’re talking about brand new tools like the Revell ‘71 Mustang. Since kit sale totals are a fraction of what they used to be compared to the old days, according to many sources,  there’s no way they would be able recoup that kind of investment if all those cloned kit reissues were state of art new tools.

I believe Round2 has only released two brand new model kits this year, the new Ford Bronco and the 1/25th scale Black Beauty from the old Green Hornet T.V. series.  However, their cloned kit reissues usually come out several at a time, not 1 or 2 per year, like it is with a brand new tool.  This tells me that the cloned reissues, although more expensive than a straight reissue, are significantly cheaper than making a brand new tool of a subject.  I’m pretty sure it cost Revell a lot more money to produce their ‘71 Mustang kit than it was for Round2 to reissue their cloned ‘63 Nova wagon.

I don’t think I’m overstating the nostalgia factor about those old Johan kits.  I think there is still a lot of that around.  However, if we continue to wait…5….10….maybe….20 more years, then yes it will eventually erode away as new customers in the hobby will not have had the experience that we did in buying and building those old Johan kits.

Scanning and cloning a kit/promo that is already done cuts down on the development costs and the time it takes to get it out to market like Steve G. said.  So, even though we’re stuck with a more primitive kit than what a modern tool would give us, it costs less. That means less kits have be sold to recoup the initial investment cost.  With the way the market is these days, that is probably the best strategy to use at this time.  The more cloned kits that you can sell, the more money there is to spend on brand new tools that may come in the future.  It’s a win/win for them and for us.

When I compare the Johan kits to what they’re selling for on that auction site, it’s not really the prices they are commanding so much as the popularity of them.  The subject matter seems to be very popular these days which leads me to conclude that a cloned Cadillac, Oldmobile, or American Motors model kit would sell well.  It just has to be the right model from those respective makes.  A lot people around here got worked up over an esoteric PU from the 50’s.  Imagine the buzz if they announced a ‘68 Olds 442 reissue, ‘70 AMX reissue or a ‘65 Cadillac reissue.  I think the place would burn down.
 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by mikos

[Tabbysdaddy]

I think there would be plenty of market for Johan. The only company missing, not absorbed by Revell or Round2. Nostalgia is a big factor, most of those oddball things Revell sold off I would never buy, but someone does I guess since they're being reissued now. Groovy Grader? No thanks. But that Cadillac Eldorado I built as a kid, sure I'll take two. 

[Justin Porter]

13 hours ago, mikos said:

Where are you getting $200k+ for each cloned kit to be produced?  I don’t think it’s costing Round2 $200k+ per model kit tooling for the cloned kits that they have done.  I think you’re talking about brand new tools like the Revell ‘71 Mustang. Since kit sale totals are a fraction of what they used to be compared to the old days, according to many sources,  there’s no way they would be able recoup that kind of investment if all those cloned kit reissues were state of art new tools.

https://modelairplanemaker.com/2019/06/26/the-expensive-model-kit-myth/

Fun fact, you can get the $200,000 number from readily available first hand sources such as this article which cites an Accurate Miniatures representative stating that they were spending 150-200k per brand new tool on 1/48th scale aircraft in 2007. Corrected for inflation to 2023 dollars, the low end of that - $150,000 - works out to $227,521 according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. 

Now, granted, a top-line 1/48th scale aircraft kit will have a significantly higher parts count than a Round 2 Craftsman Plus kit, but at the same time aircraft kits typically have much smaller clear parts trees - with large portions of the clear parts anticipated to be painted - and generally have no need to make considerations for the chroming process. At the end of the day, it's not at all hard to see Round 2 spending at least that much for reproducing old kits ESPECIALLY when you consider that the initial scan of the old kit only creates a rough 3D CAD file that still requires post-processing which can eat up months of work.

[Justin Porter]

Steering attention BACK to the actual topic here, let's talk about what Johan - the actual currently existing Johan - has been attempting to do and that is joining the 3D printed resin kit marketplace. They announced this project in November of 2022 which means we're closing in on a year since the announcement. In that time, Iceman Collections has released their Vector W8, USCP has released their Citroen SM, BMW E39 M5, and Porsche 550 Spyder, and DiOlex production has released their 1971 Ford Maverick.

Arguably smaller companies with less industry contacts and resources and CERTAINLY with less clout and nostalgia than the much ballyhooed Johan have succeeded in bringing competing products to market AND with ever decreasing prices and improving rates of production. This is where the skepticism about Okay comes from among people who aren't viewing those five letters with rose colored glassed so heavily tinted they might as well be opaque.
 

[SteveG]

The odds of seeing any version of the Powell kit from Round2 in mass production are slim to none, just too obscure.  I have no interest it them but I'm betting if the 3D files really still exist then they'll show up in some form sooner or later.  

 Without getting into specifics, I can assure you that our cloned kits and especially the curbside versions don't cost anywhere near 200K to tool up.  Even the 100% All-New Charger R/T was less than that. 

 I highly doubt there will ever be any deal made to bring back any vintage Johan branded kits, however the subject matter is all fair game with proper licensing.   There's lots of examples of kits being cloned in all or part long before 3D technology made it easier and cheaper to accomplish this.   There is certainly hope for an '68 Olds 422 or an AMX or any number of other good subject matter in our future.   You'll just have to wait and see. 

-Steve

[bobthehobbyguy]

Justin that link on the kit prices is very informative and should be read by all to understand the current pricing.

Steveg thanks for the insight on the costs.

Well I've spent enough time on this and now have important things to do. Halloween is nearly here and I need to tend to my pumpkin patch I'm really sure the Great Pumpkin is coming this year and I want my best pumpkin patch ever for him to see.

Edited September 29, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy

[tim boyd]

6 hours ago, SteveG said:

The odds of seeing any version of the Powell kit from Round2 in mass production are slim to none, just too obscure.  I have no interest it them but I'm betting if the 3D files really still exist then they'll show up in some form sooner or later.  

 Without getting into specifics, I can assure you that our cloned kits and especially the curbside versions don't cost anywhere near 200K to tool up.  Even the 100% All-New Charger R/T was less than that. 

 I highly doubt there will ever be any deal made to bring back any vintage Johan branded kits, however the subject matter is all fair game with proper licensing.   There's lots of examples of kits being cloned in all or part long before 3D technology made it easier and cheaper to accomplish this.   There is certainly hope for an '68 Olds 422 or an AMX or any number of other good subject matter in our future.   You'll just have to wait and see. 

-Steve

Thanks Steve for weighing in on this one with a proper reality check....TB 

[Justin Porter]

20 hours ago, SteveG said:

 Without getting into specifics, I can assure you that our cloned kits and especially the curbside versions don't cost anywhere near 200K to tool up.  Even the 100% All-New Charger R/T was less than that. 

Firstly, thank you incredibly much for the insight on costs. I'm actually glad to hear that tooling costs are considerably less than as reported. Without delving too much into trade secrets, could you offer some comparison as to where Round 2 has made the most ground in conserving costs? The article points that Accurate Miniatures specifically chose to tool in a highly wear resistant material - copper barilium - which I imagine partially explains their higher cost.  

[Luc Janssens]

1 hour ago, Justin Porter said:

Firstly, thank you incredibly much for the insight on costs. I'm actually glad to hear that tooling costs are considerably less than as reported. Without delving too much into trade secrets, could you offer some comparison as to where Round 2 has made the most ground in conserving costs? The article points that Accurate Miniatures specifically chose to tool in a highly wear resistant material - copper barilium - which I imagine partially explains their higher cost.  

There's development (research - design) and tooling.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Luc Janssens

[Zoom Zoom]

Guys, there is more to the current state of Johan than most people realize. Some of it I will not mention publicly because I don't want to cause any kind of friction or forum war or whatever, because that's what sadly happens in our hobby way too often. Just ask any model company that posts on their Facebook pages. It's almost embarrassing to see the replies from "guys like us". 

As for Johan, there are more involved with it than you may expect. I'll link to their Facebook page, and please refrain from any "I don't do Facebook" stuff. It's the easiest way for some entities to get the word out and actually be in control of their page and in control who can post on their page.

Check out Atomic City Rod & Custom Model Car Resource for more information. They have a really impressive new hobby shop in Dayton Ohio. One of the investors is Jack Higgins from way back in the day as a partner in J&J Hobbies. Super good guy. Jack's in Cincinnati now. Check out TimKustom's video of it on his Youtube channel.  I'll link to Atomic City first, then Tim's Youtube link to the hobby shop. We were there in Ohio for Randy Derr's invitational model display at the Dayton Concours d'Elegance 2 weeks ago. That weekend included a Saturday morning cars & coffee, a visit to the hobby shop, a get together at Randy's on Saturday afternoon, the main car show on Sunday, and a raucous good time on Sunday late afternoon/early evening group dinner after the show. Tim has videos of all but not the dinner. We had an absolute blast.

https://www.facebook.com/AtomicCityModelCars/

 

[bobthehobbyguy]

It's too bad that the link to the Facebook page doesn't have a more useful public page. Guess I'll have to wait till more info trickles out to learn more.

[SteveG]

12 hours ago, Justin Porter said:

Firstly, thank you incredibly much for the insight on costs. I'm actually glad to hear that tooling costs are considerably less than as reported. Without delving too much into trade secrets, could you offer some comparison as to where Round 2 has made the most ground in conserving costs? The article points that Accurate Miniatures specifically chose to tool in a highly wear resistant material - copper barilium - which I imagine partially explains their higher cost.  

I really can't say for sure that Copper Beryllium is still being used but's possible, those A/M Corvettes are almost 30 years old now.  I think the biggest changes in the industry besides the advancements of CNC and EDM machining, along with 3D development are the size of the molds. Those early tools ranged in size from coffee table to something that would fill an 8' truck bed and weighed over a ton.  Now most of our new tooling molds are down to about the size of a 5-pack box of office paper.   So instead of running one giant injection machine per kit you use 3 or 4 smaller machines.  Those changes are worldwide, not just Round2. 

-Steve

[1930fordpickup]

 Beryllium copper (BECU) is the name of the metal that was used for molds back in the day.  This metal is great for heat sink and cools the plastic faster than Steel of Aluminum.  BECU also has a high wear resistance compared to Aluminum. That is how the molds from those 60's kits are still in use because they were not made of Aluminum. It has been written in Scale magazines than the 1915 (Or whatever year that rare kit is) Chevy was made from Aluminum because they only needed a few kits and not 1,000's of them. When they were done with that run the molds were junk. 

[Zoom Zoom]

14 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

It's too bad that the link to the Facebook page doesn't have a more useful public page. Guess I'll have to wait till more info trickles out to learn more.

The hobby shop is kind of like a grassroots campaign. Three guys combining talent/forces, learning as they go. Their FB page gets their feet wet. Give 'em a call to chat/ask questions or visit if you're ever in their area. What they have in their shop is pretty dang cool. From new/old kits, aftermarket stuff, parts kits, junk boxes, old built kits/promos, built models on display by Doug Horner who I think started it all, he'll let you hold his display models if you show interest, and I sure took advantage of that as he's had fun with some of the 3D kits offered by Too Many Projects. He's got a workbench in the big back room which is the loading dock and warehouse space. I bought $93 worth of goodies, from a vintage built '61 Continental to the reissued Space 1999 Moon Buggy. Wish we had a hobby shop like that in every town. 

[Zoom Zoom]

9 hours ago, SteveG said:

I really can't say for sure that Copper Beryllium is still being used but's possible, those A/M Corvettes are almost 30 years old now.  I think the biggest changes in the industry besides the advancements of CNC and EDM machining, along with 3D development are the size of the molds. Those early tools ranged in size from coffee table to something that would fill an 8' truck bed and weighed over a ton.  Now most of our new tooling molds are down to about the size of a 5-pack box of office paper.   So instead of running one giant injection machine per kit you use 3 or 4 smaller machines.  Those changes are worldwide, not just Round2. 

-Steve

Steve, the hobby shop I mentioned in my post above may have some things useful to your endeavors. If you get a chance to visit, I highly recommend it. Do you still have any of those Charger pursuit test shot wheels remaining? If so I'd still love to get a set. 

[John M.]

It's just a though but Okey Spalding should discuss a deal with Atlantis about producing the Powell PU. It's not as big as Round Two or Revell but Atlantis has more resources than Okey has.