News about the new "Jo-Han USA Oldies LLC" courtesy of Todd Sargis

[Daddyfink]

I hate to be the wet blanket, but, it seems to me that the resources to clone vintage kits is not there. Sure, they hopefully make some money on their current projects, but a whole new tooling of say, a Road Runner or Cadillac? Very doubtful. 

Using the JoHan name is tugging at heartstrings and desires of builders and collectors, but I sadly do not see much from this. 

Maybe they should have named it "All the Rare Kits You Wanted and Wish We Would Do  LLC" or something. 

[Justin Porter]

7 hours ago, Daddyfink said:

I hate to be the wet blanket, but, it seems to me that the resources to clone vintage kits is not there. Sure, they hopefully make some money on their current projects, but a whole new tooling of say, a Road Runner or Cadillac? Very doubtful. 

Using the JoHan name is tugging at heartstrings and desires of builders and collectors, but I sadly do not see much from this. 

Maybe they should have named it "All the Rare Kits You Wanted and Wish We Would Do  LLC" or something. 

If I were to have a realistic hope, it would be that this "new" Johan would simply concentrate on new-design 3D resin kits of subjects that would be known to be in classic Johan's wheelhouse. If we look at Javelins or Comets or Toronados along the lines of the Iceman Vector W8 or the USCP Citroen SM, granted with corresponding price tags, that would be a good way to bring the Johan name into the 21st century rather than attempting to be another Round 2. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Justin Porter

[bobthehobbyguy]

22 minutes ago, Justin Porter said:

If I were to have a realistic hope, it would be that this "new" Johan would simply concentrate on new-design 3D resin kits of subjects that would be known to be in classic Johan's wheelhouse. If we look at Javelins or Comets or Toronados along the lines of the Iceman Vector W8 or the USCP Citroen SM, granted with corresponding price tags, that would be a good way to bring the Johan name into the 21st century rather than attempting to be another Round 2. 

I agree wholeheartedly.  It makes a lot more sense and definitely more feasible than pestering Round2 or another manufacturer to spend bucket loads of money to recreate tooling for archaic kits.

[Daddyfink]

On 11/22/2023 at 5:54 AM, Justin Porter said:

If I were to have a realistic hope, it would be that this "new" Johan would simply concentrate on new-design 3D resin kits of subjects that would be known to be in classic Johan's wheelhouse. If we look at Javelins or Comets or Toronados along the lines of the Iceman Vector W8 or the USCP Citroen SM, granted with corresponding price tags, that would be a good way to bring the Johan name into the 21st century rather than attempting to be another Round 2. 

I hit the Like 👍 

I wish them much success and I do hope they make some cool stuff, and yes, something fresh would be nice. There have been plenty of resurrections lately, which is great, but a fully detailed vintage kit would be nice. But I am sure they are still quite a bit out from something like that happening. 

 

[Sport Suburban]

On 11/21/2023 at 4:07 PM, iangilly said:

I know all 3 of the guys behind the new johan and they are not affiliated with Okey at all, completely new company. They don't want to put a bad taste in any mouths so theyre starting off small with the trailer to see how those do and are going from there. They won't do any sales till they have product in hand.

Thank you for that. I know Okey actually bought some JoHan tooling way back and has the company name "JoHan Models LLC". Since he actually owns some of the JoHan stuff I can understand he is trying to resurrect the brand but not doing well at it. I'm not compaining, or know all of his challenges but I'm sure his passion is in it.

So, these three new guys also want to do the same thing? I don't know them or their intensions. I'm sure they are passionate as well but starting another "Jo-Han USA Oldies LLC" seems a bit confusing to us consumers. Plus, if they don't really have any of the old Jo-Han stuff and are just building a new model company. Isn't that like Stolen Valor? If the product is good and announced in a manner that builds excitement, then released in a timely manner. The name of the company won't matter.

[mikos]

On 11/22/2023 at 5:54 AM, Justin Porter said:

If I were to have a realistic hope, it would be that this "new" Johan would simply concentrate on new-design 3D resin kits of subjects that would be known to be in classic Johan's wheelhouse. If we look at Javelins or Comets or Toronados along the lines of the Iceman Vector W8 or the USCP Citroen SM, granted with corresponding price tags, that would be a good way to bring the Johan name into the 21st century rather than attempting to be another Round 2. 

There is nothing wrong with being another Round2.  Also, Round2 is not just cloning ancient kits, but also developing new tools like the new Bronco.  Of course, that’s due to help from the auto manufacturer (Ford) like in the old days with the promos/annuals.  I think if they want to get this new Jo-Han LLC off the ground, they will have to tap into the nostalgia market with cloning/reproducing a few vintage kits.  3D resin would not cut it because those would be at a much higher consumer price point than doing them in plastic.  Cloning the vintage kits would pay for the new tooling and bring the name into the 21st century that you desire so much.

[Rob Hall]

Just now, mikos said:

There is nothing wrong with being another Round2.  Also, Round2 is not just cloning ancient kits, but also developing new tools like the new Bronco.  Of course, that’s due to help from the auto manufacturer (Ford) like in the old days with the promos/annuals.  I think if they want to get this new Jo-Han LLC off the ground, they will have to tap into the nostalgia market with cloning/reproducing a few vintage kits.  3D resin would not cut it because those would be at a much higher consumer price point than doing them in plastic.  Cloning the vintage kits would pay for the new tooling and bring the name into the 21st century that you desire so much.

The difference w/ Round 2 is that they have a vast tooling bank to draw upon for reissues and modified reissues to pay for cloning and new tools.  This Jo-Han is starting from nothing...will be interesting to see where they go.  The 3D market is growing, definitely seems like one viable direction to go...lots of potential there. 

[mikos]

On 11/22/2023 at 6:21 AM, bobthehobbyguy said:

I agree wholeheartedly.  It makes a lot more sense and definitely more feasible than pestering Round2 or another manufacturer to spend bucket loads of money to recreate tooling for archaic kits.

Is that because it would reduce the collector value of the vintage kits that you now have in your stash?   Don’t be mad at me.  There a lot of people like me who would like to see many of those vintage kits cloned/reproduced without having to spend collector prices for them.  

With an expensive collector kit, most people would decide to leave it unbuilt because it would ruin the value.  I like to build some of those kits and have new ones to build from as well from the Jo-Han catalog.  Right now, many of them are too expensive and very collectible so what does that do for the hobby?  Nothing, except for padding the pockets of the collectors/speculators who keep them unbuilt.  

The future of the hobby, if we want it to have a future, can’t depend on expensive collector kits everyone is afraid to build because it would harm their collector value.   Let the old promos take over that function, not the model kits. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by mikos

[Ace-Garageguy]

Modern 3D scanning technology could, of course, be used to fast-track injection-molding tooling development, at least for the beautifully scaled bodies of most of their vintage offerings that are gone forever.

Licensing, and possibly designing/tooling modern well-detailed underpinnings is another whole set of huge expense-makers, though.

I'm still not on board 100% with commercially-produced 3D printed plastic anything. I just popped a fair chunk of change for a fully-printed kit, and it's already warping...just days after I received it...much worse than ANY traditional "resin" parts I've ever bought, even from some of the well-known third-rate bottom-feeder vendors.

I'm not impressed.

[mikos]

14 minutes ago, Rob Hall said:

The difference w/ Round 2 is that they have a vast tooling bank to draw upon for reissues and modified reissues to pay for cloning and new tools.  This Jo-Han is starting from nothing...will be interesting to see where they go.  The 3D market is growing, definitely seems like one viable direction to go...lots of potential there. 

If the 3D market can help them to eventually clone and reproduce a vintage styrene plastic kit like Round2 from their archive, I’m all in for that.  Just don’t have the 3D resin be the focus of the company.  Utilize it as a stepping stone to get making plastic kits again.

[Dave Van]

I have no isea what is in store from this new JoHan. 

This I do know for fact.

Okey never had the resources buy/fix/run the abandoned JoHan tooling that is out there.

Accurate Miniatures looked at the tooling, both the JoHan airplane and automotive kits,  Never able to make a deal that could work.

Moebius looked at the same tooling and passed at the price offered. 

Again I have no idea what these guys will do....but do not hold your breath for what old JoHan tooling that is out there floating around.  

I worked for all the above when this went down. thx

[Luc Janssens]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Modern 3D scanning technology could, of course, be used to fast-track injection-molding tooling development, at least for the beautifully scaled bodies of most of their vintage offerings that are gone forever.

Licensing, and possibly designing/tooling modern well-detailed underpinnings is another whole set of huge expense-makers, though.

I'm still not on board 100% with commercially-produced 3D printed plastic anything. I just popped a fair chunk of change for a fully-printed kit, and it's already warping...just days after I received it...much worse than ANY traditional "resin" parts I've ever bought, even from some of the well-known third-rate bottom-feeder vendors.

I'm not impressed.

Well....if it's possible to scan an old kit, or parts thereof, it's also possible to scan pieces which are created or were modified by a creative modeler, just as the tooling model craftsmen, carved from wood back in the day.

So just for argument's sake, a guy takes an annual Jo-Han '70 GTX, mates it with the underpinnings of an Ertl designed late sixties B-Body and modifies the interior, then scans all the parts, refines it some more in the 3D program, test prints the outcome and if ok, sends the file to China to tool. 

The technology is there and in part being used by the aftermarket, only thus far the big hurdle is, tooling dollars, the fear of losing your shirt if the ROI isn't there. This is what separates the men from the boys

 

Just my 2 cents and as always open for input.

Cheers

 

Luc

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Luc Janssens
refinement, story of my life, refining my writing ;)

[ChrisBcritter]

19 minutes ago, Luc Janssens said:

the big hurdle is tooling dollars, the fear of losing your shirt if the ROI isn't there.

Tooling dollars PLUS the licensing (which I'm sure is why the new company is starting with a generic trailer rather than a car). Wonder how much the licensing runs?

[mikos]

1 hour ago, Dave Van said:

I have no isea what is in store from this new JoHan. 

This I do know for fact.

Okey never had the resources buy/fix/run the abandoned JoHan tooling that is out there.

Accurate Miniatures looked at the tooling, both the JoHan airplane and automotive kits,  Never able to make a deal that could work.

Moebius looked at the same tooling and passed at the price offered. 

Again I have no idea what these guys will do....but do not hold your breath for what old JoHan tooling that is out there floating around.  

I worked for all the above when this went down. thx

You don’t need the old tooling anymore.  You just need the ability to clone an existing kit to make a new tooling mold that could work in a modern injection machine.  

Edited November 24, 2023 by mikos

[mikos]

1 hour ago, ChrisBcritter said:

Tooling dollars PLUS the licensing (which I'm sure is why the new company is starting with a generic trailer rather than a car). Wonder how much the licensing runs?

The licensing might not be as much of a problem as you think it is.  A lot of people on here thought it cost $250k+ to reproduce/clone a kit and had to sell in the 10’s of thousands to make a profit until Steve G. from Round2 finally set them straight.

 

[Dave Van]

5 hours ago, mikos said:

You don’t need the old tooling anymore.  You just need the ability to clone an existing kit to make a new tooling mold that could work in a modern injection machine.  

How well I know!!! My original Monogram Dragon Wagon went to China so it could be cloned into reissue 'Circus Wagon'.  So if you have one....it's a copy of mine!!!  Old tooling, if salvageable, is still cheaper than a clone new tool. Issue comes in when the tooling is missing so much a new tool is cheaper.  That is why old tooling is looked at.....IN HOPE it's usable. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Dave Van

[bobthehobbyguy]

9 hours ago, mikos said:

Is that because it would reduce the collector value of the vintage kits that you now have in your stash?   Don’t be mad at me.  There a lot of people like me who would like to see many of those vintage kits cloned/reproduced without having to spend collector prices for them.  

With an expensive collector kit, most people would decide to leave it unbuilt because it would ruin the value.  I like to build some of those kits and have new ones to build from as well from the Jo-Han catalog.  Right now, many of them are too expensive and very collectible so what does that do for the hobby?  Nothing, except for padding the pockets of the collectors/speculators who keep them unbuilt.  

The future of the hobby, if we want it to have a future, can’t depend on expensive collector kits everyone is afraid to build because it would harm their collector value.   Let the old promos take over that function, not the model kits. 

The thing is reissuringi the kits won't impact the price of the original sealed kits.  Original kits still are the primary interest of the collectors.The prices may drop on the rebuilders or incomplete kits.

If you believe so strongly there is a market then show us.

What will the cost to do the kit? Cloned may be cheaper but it's still a significant investment.

How much for licensing from the manufacturer who owns the rights to the full size vehicle?

What is your projected sales of the kits based on the kits subject matter? How many do you have to sell to make a ROI?

 

 

 

These need to be real numbers and not what you think they might be.

 

[niteowl7710]

10 hours ago, mikos said:

The licensing might not be as much of a problem as you think it is.  A lot of people on here thought it cost $250k+ to reproduce/clone a kit and had to sell in the 10’s of thousands to make a profit until Steve G. from Round2 finally set them straight.

 

No Steve said the tooling didn't cost $250k, but so far he's never argued against my supposition that his all-in cost from R&D to the end box on the shelf was that much. I happen to know first hand the "Master" License for Beemax to produce their first BMW product cost them €250k for JUST the license. Now they've amortized that across over a dozen kits spanning an M3, M6, M8, and three different 2000s era 320is - not counting individual licensing costs associated with each of those kits to the racing teams, sponsors, BMW, et al.

Domestic Licenses don't cost that much, but they're not exactly "affordable" either, plus you're usually paying a per unit percentage royalty, and have to carry a high rate liability policy so in case little Timmy chokes to death on that new Jo-Han Oldie AMX steering wheel Stellantis won't get sued for it.

Another thing to remember right before Round2 started down this blistering track of new tool new kits and 3D cloning a bunch of old kits they sold 49% of the company to an Investment Group. It's a lot easier to do things when you suddenly have millions of dollars of operating capital.

Edited November 25, 2023 by niteowl7710

[Mike 1017]

On 11/23/2023 at 2:38 PM, Sport Suburban said:

Thank you for that. I know Okey actually bought some JoHan tooling way back and has the company name "JoHan Models LLC". Since he actually owns some of the JoHan stuff I can understand he is trying to resurrect the brand but not doing well at it. I'm not compaining, or know all of his challenges but I'm sure his passion is in it.

So, these three new guys also want to do the same thing? I don't know them or their intensions. I'm sure they are passionate as well but starting another "Jo-Han USA Oldies LLC" seems a bit confusing to us consumers. Plus, if they don't really have any of the old Jo-Han stuff and are just building a new model company. Isn't that like Stolen Valor? If the product is good and announced in a manner that builds excitement, then released in a timely manner. The name of the company won't matter.

We can get Don Shipley on their case. 

[bobthehobbyguy]

20 hours ago, niteowl7710 said:

No Steve said the tooling didn't cost $250k, but so far he's never argued against my supposition that his all-in cost from R&D to the end box on the shelf was that much. I happen to know first hand the "Master" License for Beemax to produce their first BMW product cost them €250k for JUST the license. Now they've amortized that across over a dozen kits spanning an M3, M6, M8, and three different 2000s era 320is - not counting individual licensing costs associated with each of those kits to the racing teams, sponsors, BMW, et al.

Domestic Licenses don't cost that much, but they're not exactly "affordable" either, plus you're usually paying a per unit percentage royalty, and have to carry a high rate liability policy so in case little Timmy chokes to death on that new Jo-Han Oldie AMX steering wheel Stellantis won't get sued for it.

Another thing to remember right before Round2 started down this blistering track of new tool new kits and 3D cloning a bunch of old kits they sold 49% of the company to an Investment Group. It's a lot easier to do things when you suddenly have millions of dollars of operating capital.

I agree I think the $250k is all the costs for an full detail tooling. I would hazard a guess that a full clone of a fairly detailed older kit is easily a 150k to 200k cost. Definitely not chump change.

Good info on the licensing costs. A company definitely has to do quite a few kits to recover those costs. As you pointed out part of the licensing to to protect the owners of the licensing for the full size cars from deep pockets law suits. No matter how many warnings you.provide won't protect them from stupid people who won't take responsibility.

The old adage that it takes money to make money still holds true.I think the cloning works for Round2 bbecause hey have kits that are gone that can be leveraged into several vvariations. I think one shot clones have to be selected with a lot of research for them to be viable.

On 11/24/2023 at 11:16 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

Modern 3D scanning technology could, of course, be used to fast-track injection-molding tooling development, at least for the beautifully scaled bodies of most of their vintage offerings that are gone forever.

Licensing, and possibly designing/tooling modern well-detailed underpinnings is another whole set of huge expense-makers, though.

Good points. A d some of the older kits really need improvement in the detail department.

For example the old Johan pro stack maverick. First it can only be built as a drag version. Second the engine is compromised becuase it suppose to represent a 429 and SOHC motor making it inaccurate in both cases. It would take a lot of work to do it right. And if you put a lot of work to fix the engine then you are left with a no detail one piece chassis. It would be better to start with a clean sheet of paper. In addition it looks like Mobieus has plans to do that.

Edited November 26, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy

[bobthehobbyguy]

On 11/24/2023 at 11:44 AM, Dave Van said:

I have no isea what is in store from this new JoHan. 

This I do know for fact.

Okey never had the resources buy/fix/run the abandoned JoHan tooling that is out there.

Accurate Miniatures looked at the tooling, both the JoHan airplane and automotive kits,  Never able to make a deal that could work.

Moebius looked at the same tooling and passed at the price offered. 

Again I have no idea what these guys will do....but do not hold your breath for what old JoHan tooling that is out there floating around.  

I worked for all the above when this went down. thx

Pretty much the final nail in the coffin for resurrecting the old Johan kits kits. Too much was wanted for too little of value!

[mikos]

13 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

I agree I think the $250k is all the costs for an full detail tooling. I would hazard a guess that a full clone of a fairly detailed older kit is easily a 150k to 200k cost. Definitely not chump change.

Good info on the licensing costs. A company definitely has to do quite a few kits to recover those costs. As you pointed out part of the licensing to to protect the owners of the licensing for the full size cars from deep pockets law suits. No matter how many warnings you.provide won't protect them from stupid people who won't take responsibility.

The old adage that it takes money to make money still holds true.I think the cloning works for Round2 bbecause hey have kits that are gone that can be leveraged into several vvariations. I think one shot clones have to be selected with a lot of research for them to be viable.

Good points. A d some of the older kits really need improvement in the detail department.

For example the old Johan pro stack maverick. First it can only be built as a drag version. Second the engine is compromised becuase it suppose to represent a 429 and SOHC motor making it inaccurate in both cases. It would take a lot of work to do it right. And if you put a lot of work to fix the engine then you are left with a no detail one piece chassis. It would be better to start with a clean sheet of paper. In addition it looks like Mobieus has plans to do that.

Steve G. from Round2 reported that it did NOT cost $250k+ (or nowhere near that number) to produce a cloned kit.  Why do you keep insisting on that number?  It’s incorrect and misleading.

Licensing is also not the impenetrable barrier that people make it out to be.  Cost, licensing and tooling have been the three can’t do it excuses people have used for decades to explain why there will never be another Jo-Han or Jo-Han kits.  

Well, cloning blows the old tooling won’t work excuse out of the water because you not using the old tooling or whatever you can find of it to make the kits.   The cost not as prohibitive as the people around here said it was because Steve G. already told us it’s not as expensive as we all thought is was.  

So, what’s left?  It’s the licensing that is the final challenge.  Maybe Steve G. from Round2 could enlighten us on that one as well and set everyone straight.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by mikos

[mikos]

13 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Pretty much the final nail in the coffin for resurrecting the old Johan kits kits. Too much was wanted for too little of value!

You don’t need the old tooling anymore to reproduce a Johan kit.  Cloning technology gives you the ability to do it without it.

[mikos]

On 11/24/2023 at 11:59 PM, niteowl7710 said:

No Steve said the tooling didn't cost $250k, but so far he's never argued against my supposition that his all-in cost from R&D to the end box on the shelf was that much. I happen to know first hand the "Master" License for Beemax to produce their first BMW product cost them €250k for JUST the license. Now they've amortized that across over a dozen kits spanning an M3, M6, M8, and three different 2000s era 320is - not counting individual licensing costs associated with each of those kits to the racing teams, sponsors, BMW, et al.

Domestic Licenses don't cost that much, but they're not exactly "affordable" either, plus you're usually paying a per unit percentage royalty, and have to carry a high rate liability policy so in case little Timmy chokes to death on that new Jo-Han Oldie AMX steering wheel Stellantis won't get sued for it.

Another thing to remember right before Round2 started down this blistering track of new tool new kits and 3D cloning a bunch of old kits they sold 49% of the company to an Investment Group. It's a lot easier to do things when you suddenly have millions of dollars of operating capital.

I’m sure BMW and their racing teams, sponsors, etc would be at a much higher licensing rate than doing a cloned kit of a mid ‘60’s Cadillac.  I could be wrong, but my gut instinct tells me those premium German luxury brands would demand a much higher licensing fee than a domestic brand. 

Cloning can give us those old Johan kits again and they can market them under the nostalgic branding of the Jo-Han name.  I’m sure they would make money on it.  You just got to get the right people in, not the naysayers who say it can’t be done, to do it.  That’s why I think it’s imperative to have a parent company with deeper pockets be on the deal as well.  That’s why I suggested Round2.  Unless we want to just see some esoteric 3D printed trailer out of resin and call that the new Jo-Han, financial risks will have to be taken.  Deeper pockets can take more risks.  I think it would be worth it.
 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by mikos

[mikos]

On 11/24/2023 at 8:42 PM, bobthehobbyguy said:

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by mikos