2024 Cannonball Run theme ideas thread?

[stitchdup]

maybe have pre 2000 as the cut off. that way some of the tuners would qualify too

[Beans]

All sounds good to me...scary to think that 20 years ago was still in the 2000s.  ?

[disconovaman]

 I had already picked a kit to build for the theme I voted for. I was excited to build this kit... I felt pretty confident the theme would be chosen. The more I thought about it I realized this kit was probably more suited for the Restomod theme anyway.  Kinda glad now it didn't go my way. I can't wait to announce my selection and start it in the new year.

[Fat Brian]

4 hours ago, White Rabbit said:

This is certainly a good discussion that's taking place. A Motortrend article (link below) basically states that any car that is restored and modified, classifies as a Restomod; regardless of the level of modifications. Therefore, Pro Touring, Pro Street, etc., are all sub-categories of Restomods.

From the article: "Now, before all those upgrades took place, the body was restored (remember that word) to appear in like-new condition, which is where we get the term "resto," short for "restored." Once the car takes on parts to improve its performance, handling, and safety, the car has now been "modified." With the car now being restored and modified, it is then referred to as a "restomod.""

The article continues: "I understand that we have various muscle car sub-categories such as Pro Street and Pro Touring, but regardless of the number of upgrades and how wild or radical said upgrades are, the cars were restored and modified, which in the spirit of all things said, falls under restomod." (Motortrend article)

Adopting this more "open" definition should remove a lot of the concern and debate as to what is or is not a Restomod. Entrants, then, can state their build and whether it is a more conservative "restomod" or one of the sub-categories, such as Pro-Touring so that the vehicle can be viewed accordingly.

This more open definition also gives greater scope for varying skill levels of building as there is more to choose from: from lightly modernized classic, to a full high performance build.

Finally, the age range of the vehicles should be defined: Classic cars of 20 years or older?

I feel like making the definition that broad is basically doing "run what you brung" again. Maybe we could limit mods to bolt on stuff. Engines, axles, better brakes, interior mods, wheels and tires are fair game but tubs, wide bodies, independent suspension conversion, things like that are prohibited. 

[Bills72sj]

I have been enjoying this discussion. I have some suggestions for criteria if I may.

Interior: Any seats or dash. Must retain factory tub/platform.

Suspension: Pick which ever end you wish to modify. Corvette front subframe? Great. Jaguar or other independent rear suspension OK too. Doing BOTH ends could be up for debate. I would suggest keeping the factory gas tank.

Body: Fenders, quarter panels and greenhouse to remain stock. You can modify the the hood to your hearts content. Slight mods to grilles, tail panels and valences front and rear OK.

Spoilers: Anything offered by the manufacturer during the era. No front splitters or huge rear wings.

Wheels and tires: Sky is the limit as long as they do not require wheel opening mods.

Engine and trans: ANYTHING you want. MAYBE limit choices to be the same as body manufacturer.

Color or Livery: It is your choice.

Please share your views. ?

 

[White Rabbit]

1 hour ago, Fat Brian said:

I feel like making the definition that broad is basically doing "run what you brung" again. Maybe we could limit mods to bolt on stuff. Engines, axles, better brakes, interior mods, wheels and tires are fair game but tubs, wide bodies, independent suspension conversion, things like that are prohibited. 

You make a good point here. Furthermore, your definition of using only bolt-on parts may be the objective distinguishing factor between Resto and Pro. This would certainly keep in line with some of the research and comments posted here where the more traditional definition of resto is to make non-destructive modifications that can be easily reversed; i.e., bolt-on mods.

I hadn't thought of it that way until you mentioned it, and the difference made more sense.

Perhaps, something like this then:

A. Classic vehicles from 1903-2004

B. Fully restored, like-new condition

C. Modifications limited to bolt-on parts that are easily reversible. Modifications are there to increase the car's ability, functionality, safety and comfort; not for extreme performance, i.e.: track-day specials, etc.

     1. More detailed modifications can be present here as well, such as for engine, body, etc. (similar to Bills72sj's post)

This is a great brainstorming session here and I think we're close to finding the solution.

Edited December 22, 2023 by White Rabbit

[stitchdup]

personally, limiting to bolt ons just wouldn't be that interesting a build for me. its more like building a day 2 car than a racecar. It is supposed to be a cannonball after all . it is an outlaw race so maybe limit to outwardly stock but anything else goes.  or maybe have a second class for more outlaw builds?

[Beans]

I like Bill's description most so far.  Keeping things strictly bolt on really doesn't give much latitude for a build.  It becomes a straight out of the box build.  And kits that come with an engine that isn't factory stock to begin with would automatically be disqualified.  

I like the idea of being able to modify as Bill described while keeping the general overall appearance of the factory car.  That limiter is the challenge and if someone wants to build OOB then have at it.  Given the fact that it is the Cannonball, an entire field of 1930s and 1940s cars with all the bolt ons in the world would be easily beaten by a stock 2000 corvette.

FWIW, IMHO and all that, the primary goal of the group build is to have a car that is potentially able to compete in a cross country race for time.  Then secondly is the limiting factors of the theme.  That is what sets this build apart from the general build a chevy type builds.  The theme shouldn't be so limiting that it takes away from the primary objective.

[Tim H]

I would think that the rules should contain:

 

No mods to the body, must appear stock. AKA restored. factory options OK.

Chassis swaps only for better detail.  Revell 69 Camaro chassis under the MPC 69 Firebird.

Must have engine cover. AKA hood, may use factory hood scoops at original height.

May use any engine/ transmission combination subject to perceived horsepower, IE twin turbo LS in a Vega. 

Restomod is a vintage body with modern upgrades for comfort, reliability, handling. Not look like a racecar, no roll cages. Maybe subtle roll bar OK.

 

Tim

[stinkybritches]

6 minutes ago, Tim H said:

Restomod is a vintage body with modern upgrades for comfort, reliability, handling. Not look like a racecar, no roll cages. Maybe subtle roll bar OK.

 

Tim

This was the definition in the beginning. Now, as with everything else today it seems, the definition has been changed to whatever someone wants it to be. 

[Fat Brian]

2 hours ago, Beans said:

I like Bill's description most so far.  Keeping things strictly bolt on really doesn't give much latitude for a build.  It becomes a straight out of the box build.  And kits that come with an engine that isn't factory stock to begin with would automatically be disqualified.  

I like the idea of being able to modify as Bill described while keeping the general overall appearance of the factory car.  That limiter is the challenge and if someone wants to build OOB then have at it.  Given the fact that it is the Cannonball, an entire field of 1930s and 1940s cars with all the bolt ons in the world would be easily beaten by a stock 2000 corvette.

FWIW, IMHO and all that, the primary goal of the group build is to have a car that is potentially able to compete in a cross country race for time.  Then secondly is the limiting factors of the theme.  That is what sets this build apart from the general build a chevy type builds.  The theme shouldn't be so limiting that it takes away from the primary objective.

Engine and transmission swaps are completely allowed under the bolt on rules as long as you don't have to butcher the car to make it fit. Getting the modern performance and reliability of an LS or 5.0 or 2jz swap in an older car is totally the spirit of restomodding.

[stitchdup]

so its just the sleeperball again?

[Beans]

12 hours ago, Bills72sj said:

I have been enjoying this discussion. I have some suggestions for criteria if I may.

Interior: Any seats or dash. Must retain factory tub/platform.

Suspension: Pick which ever end you wish to modify. Corvette front subframe? Great. Jaguar or other independent rear suspension OK too. Doing BOTH ends could be up for debate. I would suggest keeping the factory gas tank.

Body: Fenders, quarter panels and greenhouse to remain stock. You can modify the the hood to your hearts content. Slight mods to grilles, tail panels and valences front and rear OK.

Spoilers: Anything offered by the manufacturer during the era. No front splitters or huge rear wings.

Wheels and tires: Sky is the limit as long as they do not require wheel opening mods.

Engine and trans: ANYTHING you want. MAYBE limit choices to be the same as body manufacturer.

Color or Livery: It is your choice.

Please share your views. ?

 

So this then.  Seems the best description I have seen so far.

[atomicholiday]

Just a thought here.  If resto-mod is too broad of a term, maybe we go a different direction?  

[Beans]

At some point it is just going to have to come down to whoever leads this thing to make the decision on the boundaries of the build.  If we leave it up to committee we will never have a solution as everyone will lobby for the rules that suite the build they have in their head. 

I'm just going to hang tight until it all shakes out and see what I come up with after that.

[tim08]

I agree with Beans on this one. Although Bills72sj has the best explanation so far, easiest to understand.  The only things I would change would be the engine swap, ford into chev, dodge into a ford, ect,ect. Anything that would be practical with not too much whittling to do it.  And I don't think they offered spoilers in 1932 from the factory. Just maybe bend a few rules.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Tim08

[MeatMan]

8 hours ago, stitchdup said:

so its just the sleeperball again?

That's what it seems to be morphing into.

[oldcarfan]

  Not sure which way we wind up going, but stuff like this is giving me ideas!

https://edbolian.com/a-photo-tour-of-the-2904-winning-mercedes-s55-amg/

[Fat Brian]

9 hours ago, stitchdup said:

so its just the sleeperball again?

 

48 minutes ago, MeatMan said:

That's what it seems to be morphing into.

I don't think it's necessarily sleeperball. Where a sleeper is supposed to look unassuming a restomod can be a real or clone of a factory performance model with all the badging. A 'Cuda with Hemi billboards is not a sleeper but can be a restomod, especially if it's a clone.

[White Rabbit]

As many of you know, I moderated this year's Cannonball. I would be glad to moderate the '24 edition as well. Once we agree on a compromise on the guidelines, I will get the build page up and ready to go!

We've got a lot of good points being made here. A compromise is definitely going to be needed so that we can have enough guidelines for a consistent theme, but open enough to allow for wide scope of options for the build. Taking from some of the suggestions above, the guidelines could be something like this:

Body: Mostly stock, with additions/changes made with factory offered parts or from other trim levels (like a spoiler on a base model from a premium trim model). No race-type aerodynamics of today (large wings, diffusers, etc.).

    -Subtle trim changes may be permitted.

    -Hoods may changed.

Interior: Factory (kit) tub with changes made for safety and/or comfort.

    -Roll bars are permitted, especially for open-top cars. Full roll cages are not permitted.

Suspension: Modern upgrades permitted (i.e.: independent suspension), but no race-type suspension.

Brakes: Disc brake conversions permitted, but no race-type braking systems. Systems may be from modern versions of the vehicle or aftermarket street brakes (Wilwood, Brembo, etc.). Street pads.

Wheels: Completely open, but should retain factory bolt pattern within the model range (e.g.: 4 lug to 5 five lug, such as on a DC2 Integra GSR to Integra Type R hub). Centerlock wheels permitted only if originally equipped within the model range.

    -No body or chassis modifications permitted to fit the wheels (tubs, fender flares, etc.). The exception would be if bolt-on flares were offered from the factory on different trim levels (e.g.: Datsun 240Z)

Engine and Transmission: Open to production engines. Modifications should be to enhance performance and drivability; not for extreme, peak-performance. Engine swaps are permitted. Ideally, these would be within the same brand. No race engine or transmission swaps (IMSA, NASCAR, etc.). 

    -Forced induction is permitted for increased power, but not for peak-power and torque. Again, drivability should be the focus.

Paint/Livery: Fully open.

In the end, we must all use our best judgment of what is in the spirit of the theme. After all, we’re all here to have fun, not stress out!

[disconovaman]

I agree with Jay here... my belief, for what it's worth... Restomod is a Classic vehicle that has been restored to as factory specs with upgraded modifications that make it more reliable,comfortable, and more powerful but still have the option to remove the upgraded parts to return it to factory stock. Bolt on parts can give an old car performance and handling without disrupting the originality. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by disconovaman
I'm saying

[53gmc]

Would the basic idea almost be like a "day 2" style build then with bolt ons?

[Fat Brian]

8 minutes ago, 53gmc said:

Would the basic idea almost be like a "day 2" style build then with bolt ons?

No, "day 2" is typically period correct mods that would have been done by the original owner. This is about adding stuff to make an old car perform like and have the creature comforts of a modern car.

[Beans]

4 hours ago, White Rabbit said:

As many of you know, I moderated this year's Cannonball. I would be glad to moderate the '24 edition as well. Once we agree on a compromise on the guidelines, I will get the build page up and ready to go!

We've got a lot of good points being made here. A compromise is definitely going to be needed so that we can have enough guidelines for a consistent theme, but open enough to allow for wide scope of options for the build. Taking from some of the suggestions above, the guidelines could be something like this:

Body: Mostly stock, with additions/changes made with factory offered parts or from other trim levels (like a spoiler on a base model from a premium trim model). No race-type aerodynamics of today (large wings, diffusers, etc.).

    -Subtle trim changes may be permitted.

    -Hoods may changed.

Interior: Factory (kit) tub with changes made for safety and/or comfort.

    -Roll bars are permitted, especially for open-top cars. Full roll cages are not permitted.

Suspension: Modern upgrades permitted (i.e.: independent suspension), but no race-type suspension.

Brakes: Disc brake conversions permitted, but no race-type braking systems. Systems may be from modern versions of the vehicle or aftermarket street brakes (Wilwood, Brembo, etc.). Street pads.

Wheels: Completely open, but should retain factory bolt pattern within the model range (e.g.: 4 lug to 5 five lug, such as on a DC2 Integra GSR to Integra Type R hub). Centerlock wheels permitted only if originally equipped within the model range.

    -No body or chassis modifications permitted to fit the wheels (tubs, fender flares, etc.). The exception would be if bolt-on flares were offered from the factory on different trim levels (e.g.: Datsun 240Z)

Engine and Transmission: Open to production engines. Modifications should be to enhance performance and drivability; not for extreme, peak-performance. Engine swaps are permitted. Ideally, these would be within the same brand. No race engine or transmission swaps (IMSA, NASCAR, etc.). 

    -Forced induction is permitted for increased power, but not for peak-power and torque. Again, drivability should be the focus.

Paint/Livery: Fully open.

In the end, we must all use our best judgment of what is in the spirit of the theme. After all, we’re all here to have fun, not stress out!

This.  100%. 

[stitchdup]

with those rules i think it becomes a little too narrow a theme. I would say use them as a minimum level of mods to qualify as a restomod but open them up from there. In past cannonballs people have started with a wide variety of kits and ideas and some pretty wild builds have ensued. Ones that stick in my mind are the twini mini and last years integra with the nsx chassis. Its the cannonball where we get these types of builds because there are less rules and it encourages people to go wilder. Its part of the fun of watching it for the spectators seeing how the theme gets interpreted by entrants. If the rules are too tight we'll just be watching a load of the same car being built, maybe different kits and parts but really its just 10 people building the same thing. If the rules were more open to entrants interpretation we get to see the creativity and crazier (in a good way) ideas coming out and people pushing themselves to build something they wouldn't normally do. Maybe the rules should be has to appear to ba a restomod when parked. I'm not against the rules, I just think they need loosening up or we risk having ten builds that all have the same things done to them because thats all the rules allow and it just doesn't feel like the spirit of the cannonball.