2024 Cannonball Run theme ideas thread?

[oldcarfan]

It's been a trying couple of months here, so I've been making contingency plans for various possible topics for a distraction. I'm coming up with ideas for different cars and such.

[Beans]

I can do restomod..even have an idea I think will work well.  Hard part will be not crossing over into pro touring.

[White Rabbit]

I've been researching the difference between Restomod and Pro Touring as I'm not very familiar with the differences. Also, as this may be the theme, it would be a good idea to have a clear definition of what a Restomod is.The best explanation I've found is here: Restomod v. Pro Touring

Pro Touring: Extensively modified classics that aim to match or exceed modern car performance, safety, etc; while still retaining the classic looks. Everything is taken to the maximum.

Restomod: Similar in basic philosophy, but not as extreme. That is, keeping the car as original as possible while improving it with modern modifications.

This is my interpretation, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[slusher]

one thing is everyone has a different. Skill level..

Edited December 21, 2023 by slusher
Typo

[Lunajammer]

1 hour ago, White Rabbit said:

Restomod: Similar in basic philosophy, but not as extreme. That is, keeping the car as original as possible while improving it with modern modifications.

This might almost have to be administered on a case by case basis if people push the definition of original vs. modern improved. E.g. a nascar chassis under a 55 Chevy is probably out of bounds? Wide body & ground effects? Trying to use Google images to help clarify in my mind but even some of those press the definition.

I know this group probably aren't nazis about it anyway, I'm just cluttering my own noggin.

[White Rabbit]

35 minutes ago, Lunajammer said:

This might almost have to be administered on a case by case basis if people push the definition of original vs. modern improved. E.g. a nascar chassis under a 55 Chevy is probably out of bounds? Wide body & ground effects? Trying to use Google images to help clarify in my mind but even some of those press the definition.

I know this group probably aren't nazis about it anyway, I'm just cluttering my own noggin.

There seems to be some subjectivity when defining what is resto and what is pro. A Motortrend article (found here) has some good guidelines:

"Restomod Vs. Pro Touring At A Glance

Affordability. A restomod is typically much more affordable than a pro touring machine. Can also be built in stages more easily. 

Brakes. A restomod has a brake package that's upgraded to modern passenger-car standards. A pro touring machine will have race-caliber brakes. 

Wheels & Tires. Both restomods and pro tourers have larger-diameter wheels and tires, but a pro touring machine is more likely to sport a more aggressive rubber compound and lighter, more costly wheels. 

Chassis. A restomod will retain the stock chassis and rely on simple suspension bolt-on parts that don't destroy or alter the factory metal. A serious pro touring machine will have a ground-up chassis. 

Suspension. The restomod is in the sweet spot for enthusiasts because most vintage chassis types are well supported by the aftermarket. A few choice bolt-ons can close 80 percent of the handling gap with a pro touring car for about a third of the price. 

Overdrive. Since the goal of both restomods and pro touring cars is ultimately to drive them on the street, an overdrive transmission is the key. A competitive pro touring car will almost always have a manual transmission, though. 

Safety. As a mostly street-driven vehicle, a restomod will only require the equipment mandated by the Fed in the year of manufacture. A pro touring machine, however, may get significant use on track and other high-speed venues, such as mile racing and open-road racing (Pike's Peak, Silver State Classic, Big Bend, etc. ). This will require significant safety upgrades in the form of rollbars or rollcages, fire suppression systems, fire-resistant attire, helmet, and rollbar padding." (Motortrend article)

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by White Rabbit

[Lunajammer]

25 minutes ago, White Rabbit said:

Restomod Vs. Pro Touring At A Glance

[Beans]

I look at it this way,

Restomod is more restoration.  Modern running gear and engines but the overall esthetic should remain true to the original.

Pro touring is turning a classic into a race ready car with wide body kits, large spoilers, and the like.

I consider the Camaro I didn't be pro touring based on the extensive body alterations.

[Beans]

2 hours ago, slusher said:

one thing is everyone has a different. Skill level..

That's the truth.  I for one struggle with getting a decent paint job and can't take a decent picture to save my butt.

I look at the cannonball as a chance to do things I don't normally do on my builds.  I know I am pushing my limits in skill level and never really think about taking home the prize.  I just have fun with it.

[Spottedlaurel]

1 hour ago, Beans said:

I look at the cannonball as a chance to do things I don't normally do on my builds.  I know I am pushing my limits in skill level and never really think about taking home the prize.  I just have fun with it.

Sounds like the perfect description of what it should be about, it's certainly how I approach it, I've definitely built things that I wouldn't have done otherwise.

 

I guess the trick with the resto-mod category is to get the right base vehicle. Something old enough that needs to be restored, perhaps raced or rallied back in the day or at least with good aftermarket tuning parts supply. I'll be looking out for something that's not immediately obvious but shares its DNA with something commonly upgraded, to make use of the parts sharing possibilities. Recent comments from @disconovaman elsewhere on this forum about the Nova and Camaro come to mind, the same principle can be applied to plenty of other things. Hmmmm.......

[Koellefornia Kid]

8 hours ago, Beans said:

Hard part will be not crossing over into pro touring.

This is something I‘m thinking about, too. Just to make sure if I get this right;

 If Build something like my ‘56 T-Bird...

...I consider it as a Restomod. Body is more or less original with some custom touches here and there (shaved handles and emblems, lowered stance, cleaned bumpers, custom grille, modern rolling stock} but nothing like wide body components or spoilers, ground effects etc.). Enhanced performance by a 5.0 engine from a ‘90s (street stock) Mustang.

But I fI do a build like the‘65 Galaxie from the RWYB...

...it would be outside of the rules because it‘s Restomod from the outside BUT it has a complete NASCAR chassis, engine and running gear, so I consider it as a Pro Touring build because of too much race car DNA. 

Any rectifications or verfications?

[stitchdup]

we could save the hassle of someones build not meeting the criteria by combining resto mod and pro touring. That way its a little more open and less chance of stuff not meeting the rules or arguments over what does and doesn't meet the rules. I know whatever i built would probably end up more pro touring than resto as the body is my fav bit to modify and i have a c1 camaro transkit i want to use which is def more pro, lol)

[Fat Brian]

27 minutes ago, Koellefornia Kid said:

This is something I‘m thinking about, too. Just to make sure if I get this right;

 If Build something like my ‘56 T-Bird...

...I consider it as a Restomod. Body is more or less original with some custom touches here and there (shaved handles and emblems, lowered stance, cleaned bumpers, custom grille, modern rolling stock} but nothing like wide body components or spoilers, ground effects etc.). Enhanced performance by a 5.0 engine from a ‘90s (street stock) Mustang.

But I fI do a build like the‘65 Galaxie from the RWYB...

...it would be outside of the rules because it‘s Restomod from the outside BUT it has a complete NASCAR chassis, engine and running gear, so I consider it as a Pro Touring build because of too much race car DNA. 

Any rectifications or verfications?

Yeah, the full race chassis swap on the Galaxie seems beyond the scope of "restomod". We shouldn't prohibit chassis swaps but it needs to stay a stock style suspension setup. Say you're building the AMT 79 Firebird kit you can upgrade to the AMT 70 Camaro chassis since it's just a more detailed version of the stock stuff.

This one is going to be difficult to judgeğ since it's such a nebulous concept in scale. It's easy to go too far and end up in pro touring.

[White Rabbit]

The voting for next year's theme has come to a close. Next year's Cannonball theme will be...

Restomods!

Thank you to everyone who voted. In the coming days, I'll prepare the main build thread page and post it so that we'll be ready to go on January 1st. This will also allow us time to clear up some detail about what is and is not a restomod so that we have consistent guidelines.

[MeatMan]

12 hours ago, White Rabbit said:

There seems to be some subjectivity when defining what is resto and what is pro. A Motortrend article (found here) has some good guidelines:

"Restomod Vs. Pro Touring At A Glance

Affordability. A restomod is typically much more affordable than a pro touring machine. Can also be built in stages more easily. 

Brakes. A restomod has a brake package that's upgraded to modern passenger-car standards. A pro touring machine will have race-caliber brakes. 

Wheels & Tires. Both restomods and pro tourers have larger-diameter wheels and tires, but a pro touring machine is more likely to sport a more aggressive rubber compound and lighter, more costly wheels. 

Chassis. A restomod will retain the stock chassis and rely on simple suspension bolt-on parts that don't destroy or alter the factory metal. A serious pro touring machine will have a ground-up chassis. 

Suspension. The restomod is in the sweet spot for enthusiasts because most vintage chassis types are well supported by the aftermarket. A few choice bolt-ons can close 80 percent of the handling gap with a pro touring car for about a third of the price. 

Overdrive. Since the goal of both restomods and pro touring cars is ultimately to drive them on the street, an overdrive transmission is the key. A competitive pro touring car will almost always have a manual transmission, though. 

Safety. As a mostly street-driven vehicle, a restomod will only require the equipment mandated by the Fed in the year of manufacture. A pro touring machine, however, may get significant use on track and other high-speed venues, such as mile racing and open-road racing (Pike's Peak, Silver State Classic, Big Bend, etc. ). This will require significant safety upgrades in the form of rollbars or rollcages, fire suppression systems, fire-resistant attire, helmet, and rollbar padding." (Motortrend article)

 

I mostly agree, but have some issues with the chassis portion. I've seen several RM of unibody cars that have custom chassis because the unibody can't take the power of a modern engine, not to mention that no way can bolt on parts to a 65 Mustang allow it to handle 80% of the power of a modern Ford engine. Also, getting modern, wider tires on the thing either front or rear would be impossible.

Based on what I read, I'm now down to one kit, and may have to bow out this year.

[Camaro lover]

4 hours ago, White Rabbit said:

The voting for next year's theme has come to a close. Next year's Cannonball theme will be...

Restomods!

Thank you to everyone who voted. In the coming days, I'll prepare the main build thread page and post it so that we'll be ready to go on January 1st. This will also allow us time to clear up some detail about what is and is not a restomod so that we have consistent guidelines.

Restomod is definitely out of my comfort zone. I’m looking forward to the challenge. From what I can gather restomod is more about safety and reliability upgrades. I am a bit confused on what’s allowed on the performance end of it. Is there a limit to motor size ? Will any size be good if it’s naturally aspirated ? 

[MeatMan]

I did some research myself and I found this, which is more detailed.

https://restomodacademy.com/what-is-a-restomod/

and this one linked to the article, note the mention of chassis swaps and mods on this one, which are clearly not bolt on components.

https://restomodacademy.com/restomodding-a-corvette-the-ultimate-guide/

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by MeatMan

[stitchdup]

kindig describe most of their cars as restomods, including the cf1s which are 100% new parts

[Beans]

8 minutes ago, MeatMan said:

I did some research myself and I found this, which is more detailed.

https://restomodacademy.com/what-is-a-restomod/

and this one linked to the article, note the mention of chassis swaps and mods on this one, which are clearly not bolt on components.

https://restomodacademy.com/restomodding-a-corvette-the-ultimate-guide/

 

Great articles.  The key take aways for me are,

"the intent to restore it so it looks identical — or very nearly so — to the way it originally looked. That is, from the outside, it would be difficult for someone to determine that most restomod projects aren’t a fully-restored vehicle."

and.

"Restomod involves restoring a classic car so that its aesthetics match the original, but its engine, transmission, and other parts are high-performance upgrades."

 

[MeatMan]

30 minutes ago, stitchdup said:

kindig describe most of their cars as restomods, including the cf1s which are 100% new parts

Thank you. I was just on his site and based on some of the "rules" I've seen, they would not qualify as RMs!

[MeatMan]

30 minutes ago, Beans said:

Great articles.  The key take aways for me are,

"the intent to restore it so it looks identical — or very nearly so — to the way it originally looked. That is, from the outside, it would be difficult for someone to determine that most restomod projects aren’t a fully-restored vehicle."

and.

"Restomod involves restoring a classic car so that its aesthetics match the original, but its engine, transmission, and other parts are high-performance upgrades."

 

I disagree, because check out the link on the same article "What is a Restomod Mustang?" https://restomodacademy.com/what-is-a-restomod-mustang/

That car doesn't look factory stock, yet they call it a restomod. And if you scroll down to look at the see through, there's a roll bar and frame stiffening.
I think there is a wide latitude regarding what a RM is, with limits to changes that "look like" it came from the factory like that, not "as it came from the factory".

In the end, I think the rules will have to be more defined than what is printed in any one publication.

[Beans]

1 minute ago, MeatMan said:

I disagree, because check out the link on the same article "What is a Restomod Mustang?" https://restomodacademy.com/what-is-a-restomod-mustang/

That car doesn't look factory stock, yet they call it a restomod. And if you scroll down to look at the see through, there's a roll bar and frame stiffening.
I think there is a wide latitude regarding what a RM is, with limits to changes that "look like" it came from the factory like that, not "as it came from the factory".

In the end, I think the rules will have to be more defined than what is printed in any one publication.

That makes sense because the more I look the more I find different examples.  The way I figure it (which counts for nothing really) is if it recognizable as the model of car it is then it's good to go for Restomod.  

Something like this, probably not.

whatever guidelines get hashed out I'll go with.

[Lunajammer]

From Wikipedia on Restomod:

 Jay Leno: "Some purists object to changing or modifying these old cars. I look at it this way: If it makes the car better, safer, more reliable and faster—and you can change it back to stock whenever you want—why not do it."

Edited December 21, 2023 by Lunajammer

[oldcarfan]

Sounds good to me! I have a couple of ideas to start with. Guess the ground rules will need to be worked out. Going by the pictures on RestoMod Academy, the cars look fairly stock with some flares and spoilers allowed.

[White Rabbit]

This is certainly a good discussion that's taking place. A Motortrend article (link below) basically states that any car that is restored and modified, classifies as a Restomod; regardless of the level of modifications. Therefore, Pro Touring, Pro Street, etc., are all sub-categories of Restomods.

From the article: "Now, before all those upgrades took place, the body was restored (remember that word) to appear in like-new condition, which is where we get the term "resto," short for "restored." Once the car takes on parts to improve its performance, handling, and safety, the car has now been "modified." With the car now being restored and modified, it is then referred to as a "restomod.""

The article continues: "I understand that we have various muscle car sub-categories such as Pro Street and Pro Touring, but regardless of the number of upgrades and how wild or radical said upgrades are, the cars were restored and modified, which in the spirit of all things said, falls under restomod." (Motortrend article)

Adopting this more "open" definition should remove a lot of the concern and debate as to what is or is not a Restomod. Entrants, then, can state their build and whether it is a more conservative "restomod" or one of the sub-categories, such as Pro-Touring so that the vehicle can be viewed accordingly.

This more open definition also gives greater scope for varying skill levels of building as there is more to choose from: from lightly modernized classic, to a full high performance build.

Finally, the age range of the vehicles should be defined: Classic cars of 20 years or older?

Edited December 21, 2023 by White Rabbit