Electric NASCAR

[iamsuperdan]

2 hours ago, TarheelRick said:

One topic that has not been discussed with EV NASCAR is what happens during the "Big One" at Daytona or Talladega.  What will be the carnage when three or more of these cars collide at 190+ mph, does a couple of end-over-end flips, or maybe five or six barrel rolls? Not sure how these toxic battery packs would react to such violence.

 

Here's a pretty violent EV crash.

 

 

 

No explosions, no fires.

 

 

But I'm sure the organizers are looking at the safety measures and emergency equipment they would need to have on hand should a fire break out. Just like in other racing, crashes and fires do sometimes happen, and everyone needs to be able to manage it.

 

 

 

[Force]

On 2/1/2024 at 4:07 PM, iamsuperdan said:

1. battery upgrade - increase capacity, or run at a higher voltage

2. additional motors or replacing with more powerful motors or internal parts

3. computer management - software tuning is already a big part of new builds. Modern LS, or a Coyote are prime examples.

4. inverter mods

5. battery cooling

 

All of those can extract more power and performance from an EV.

It's how Tesla, Ford, Porsche, Audi, etc can offer variants of their EVs with higher performance.

 

I don't think the teams will be free to do anything they want, they aren't today as the rules are quite hard when it comes to what they can and can not do, and it will most likely stay that way.

Edited February 2 by Force

[iamsuperdan]

1 hour ago, Force said:

I don't think the teams will be free to do anything they want, they aren't today as the rules are quite hard when it comes to what they can and can not do, and it will most likely stay that way.

The point is, just like a gas engine, there are many ways to tune an EV drivetrain. And just like a gas racecar, there would be rules the teams must follow.

It's the same thing.

[TarheelRick]

6 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

No explosions, no fires.

And no rollovers or end-over-end flips. Single vehicle head-ons are pretty violent, but not as much as a 180 mph multi-rollover, and almost all of the super speedway races will have at least one.  Nor do they come close to a super high-speed T-Bone. It is all well and good when those massive batteries are under you, the lower center-of-gravity should help handling, however if you are rolling over and another car is bearing down on you spinning out of control, I believe I would prefer an ICE.

[Force]

10 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

The point is, just like a gas engine, there are many ways to tune an EV drivetrain. And just like a gas racecar, there would be rules the teams must follow.

It's the same thing.

I'm not so sure that it will be the same if they go electric.
Yes they do have to follow the rules with the combustion enignes and the specs are the same for all three manufacturers, but...they don't perform the same and all engines are not exactly the same, they can be built exactly the same with the same parts but they still don't perform the same, and if you take too much power out of the engine it will not last the 500 miles many races are.
There's a reason that computers aren't allowed to control anything in a drag racing car, all adjustments has to be done before the run by the members of the team, the computers can only oversee and register but not control anything as every adjustments to the engine has to be done by a human.
An EV race car will not go 500 miles on full power on the charge and you can't have pitstops for 20-30 minutes to charge up so they can continue the race...the spectators will leave and go home as the races are long enough timewise as it allready is, but you can't shorten the races because what's the point then, the Cup races are over long distances for a reason and it's for the endurance aspect of it both for the driver and for the car itself, a shorter race is much easier to go through with.
And if you go all electric you also have the problem with weight as EV cars are a lot heavier than cars with combustion engines and 3 400 lb including driver and fuel as the Cup cars are now is heavy enough for a race car.
Anyway, if they go all electric they will kill the sport, I for one will not watch...I have tried...but no, EV racing does nothing for me.

Edited February 3 by Force

[Joe Handley]

On 2/2/2024 at 2:07 PM, iamsuperdan said:

 

Here's a pretty violent EV crash.

 

 

 

No explosions, no fires.

 

 

But I'm sure the organizers are looking at the safety measures and emergency equipment they would need to have on hand should a fire break out. Just like in other racing, crashes and fires do sometimes happen, and everyone needs to be able to manage it.

 

 

 

 

Here’s an older EV crash with an Audi E-Tron SUV, ran a light and clipped a car that had the right of way. The battery broke free of the vehicle and slid into the median as the vehicle cartwheeled into someone’s front lawn.

 

[BlackSheep214]

On 2/2/2024 at 3:07 PM, iamsuperdan said:

 

Here's a pretty violent EV crash.

 

 

 

No explosions, no fires.

 

 

But I'm sure the organizers are looking at the safety measures and emergency equipment they would need to have on hand should a fire break out. Just like in other racing, crashes and fires do sometimes happen, and everyone needs to be able to manage it.

 

 

 

Irrelevant.... certainly not an oval race track related crash. 

The YouTube link is titled EV Test Crash. It's a straight head-on test crash. Doesn't prove a d*** thing.

 

[BlackSheep214]

39 minutes ago, Joe Handley said:

 

Here’s an older EV crash with an Audi E-Tron SUV, ran a light and clipped a car that had the right of way. The battery broke free of the vehicle and slid into the median as the vehicle cartwheeled into someone’s front lawn.

 

Another irrelevant video. You can't really see it because the crash is too far behind as the dashcam driver is nowhere near the crash site.  Doesn't show the end result upon impact.

[iamsuperdan]

On 2/3/2024 at 2:09 PM, BlackSheep214 said:

Irrelevant.... certainly not an oval race track related crash. 

The YouTube link is titled EV Test Crash. It's a straight head-on test crash. Doesn't prove a d*** thing.

 

The other guy asked what happens in a crash. I posted a crash.

And if you had watched the whole thing, it's an offset front crash. Kind of like how Earnhardt did it.

Proves that not all EV crashes end in a fire as the anti-EV brigade would have us believe.

 

On 2/3/2024 at 2:13 PM, BlackSheep214 said:

Another irrelevant video. You can't really see it because the crash is too far behind as the dashcam driver is nowhere near the crash site.  Doesn't show the end result upon impact.

 

Shows the battery pack leaving the car. Does not show an EV battery pack on fire. Which is obviously what you're looking for. Crashes that prove your narrative.

[iamsuperdan]

On 2/3/2024 at 2:17 AM, Force said:

I'm not so sure that it will be the same if they go electric.
Yes they do have to follow the rules with the combustion enignes and the specs are the same for all three manufacturers, but...they don't perform the same and all engines are not exactly the same, they can be built exactly the same with the same parts but they still don't perform the same, and if you take too much power out of the engine it will not last the 500 miles many races are.
There's a reason that computers aren't allowed to control anything in a drag racing car, all adjustments has to be done before the run by the members of the team, the computers can only oversee and register but not control anything as every adjustments to the engine has to be done by a human.
An EV race car will not go 500 miles on full power on the charge and you can't have pitstops for 20-30 minutes to charge up so they can continue the race...the spectators will leave and go home as the races are long enough timewise as it allready is, but you can't shorten the races because what's the point then, the Cup races are over long distances for a reason and it's for the endurance aspect of it both for the driver and for the car itself, a shorter race is much easier to go through with.
And if you go all electric you also have the problem with weight as EV cars are a lot heavier than cars with combustion engines and 3 400 lb including driver and fuel as the Cup cars are now is heavy enough for a race car.
Anyway, if they go all electric they will kill the sport, I for one will not watch...I have tried...but no, EV racing does nothing for me.

Following the rules is the same thing. 

But the rules and regs for an EV race would be different than an ICE race, as would the format of the race.

Shorter races work just fine for other race series. BTCC, DTM, Formula E, Formula2, Formula 3, etc. Even the existing feeder series within the world of NASCAR are shorter than the main series.

If NASCAR were to bring out a separate e-race, it would by necessity be a shorter race, and would be an addition to a race weekend. eNASCAR would never replace "real" NASCAR.

 

 

I'm somewhat surprised at how many people are upset at and against the possibility that there could be more types of racing in the future. 

[TarheelRick]

2 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

would never replace "real" NASCAR.

I really dislike beating a dead horse, but there has been no "real NASCAR" since the mid to late 90's. At least the bodies represented T-Birds, Luminas/Monte Carlos, Pontiacs, and the like. Anyway, whichever way they decide to go I doubt will change my opinion of the series and make me watch it.

[iamsuperdan]

9 minutes ago, TarheelRick said:

I really dislike beating a dead horse, but there has been no "real NASCAR" since the mid to late 90's. At least the bodies represented T-Birds, Luminas/Monte Carlos, Pontiacs, and the like. Anyway, whichever way they decide to go I doubt will change my opinion of the series and make me watch it.

I know, I know. 🤪

When I say "real" NASCAR, I'm referring to the top tier race. The Cup Series, I think? Whatever they call it now.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

48 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

...I'm somewhat surprised at how many people are upset at and against the possibility that there could be more types of racing in the future. 

Interesting choice of words.

I don't think "upset" has the slightest thing to do with it.

"Bored to death" would be more to the point.

Then there's the part where some of us who've actually been involved in racing don't really have much interest in watching people we have no direct connection to do it, especially in glorified golf carts.

But I've never been much of a breathless spectator-sport fan anyway. So maybe that's just me.  

 

Edited February 5 by Ace-Garageguy

[bobthehobbyguy]

 

1 hour ago, iamsuperdan said:

Following the rules is the same thing. 

But the rules and regs for an EV race would be different than an ICE race, as would the format of the race.

Shorter races work just fine for other race series. BTCC, DTM, Formula E, Formula2, Formula 3, etc. Even the existing feeder series within the world of NASCAR are shorter than the main series.

If NASCAR were to bring out a separate e-race, it would by necessity be a shorter race, and would be an addition to a race weekend. eNASCAR would never replace "real" NASCAR.

 

 

I'm somewhat surprised at how many people are upset at and against the possibility that there could be more types of racing in the future. 

 

Another thought. Sometimes it takes one application to drive technology. For example computer games drove a lot of graphics technology development. If it was strictly business applications that wouldn't have been likely.

If longer races were desired maybe there would be a push for really quick battery changes to allow longer races.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

38 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Another thought. Sometimes it takes one application to drive technology. For example computer games drove a lot of graphics technology development. If it was strictly business applications that wouldn't have been likely.

If longer races were desired maybe there would be a push for really quick battery changes to allow longer races.

Good points.

But a case has been made that because "racing improves the breed"...racing big golf-carts will have a positive effect on production cars.

There's no doubt whatsoever race-cars can be built to facilitate fast-swapping of power packs, and that pit crews can learn to do it.

And I dearly love my cordless electric tools where I always have a fresh full battery ready to go, and never have to wait for a recharge. Dandy.

But how does that scale to normie-cars? Not well, frankly.

Component standardization across multiple platforms, much less makes, has never been a strength of the automobile industry, and that goes for battery packs today at least as much as anything in the past.

And though proposals have been made that in addition to recharge stations, there could be facilities that quick-swap entire packs in just a few minutes, the idea falls short of reasonable expectations in reality.

Just for starters, how many different packs would every swap-shop have to stock, and how many different procedures are the change-chimps going to need to be proficient in?

We've already got a lack of universal standardization of charging capability that can make it pretty hard to go very far efficiently. So let's add another layer of complexity to an already marginal situation.

 

Edited February 5 by Ace-Garageguy

[BlackSheep214]

2 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

Following the rules is the same thing. 

But the rules and regs for an EV race would be different than an ICE race, as would the format of the race.

Shorter races work just fine for other race series. BTCC, DTM, Formula E, Formula2, Formula 3, etc. Even the existing feeder series within the world of NASCAR are shorter than the main series.

If NASCAR were to bring out a separate e-race, it would by necessity be a shorter race, and would be an addition to a race weekend. eNASCAR would never replace "real" NASCAR.

 

 

I'm somewhat surprised at how many people are upset at and against the possibility that there could be more types of racing in the future. 

Who's upset? Not I. Im not even beating a dead horse on this issue.

Just stating the obvious scenario. The head-on test crash doesn't say how fast he was going. It certainly didn't look like he's going over 100mph. Sure... it's an EV truck - not an EV automobile. 

Average speed for NASCAR cars is around 140 - 180 mph. An EV average is anywhere from 110 - 120. 

Throw in a high performance modified  into a NASCAR EV, it has the ability to push over 200 - 220 mph on a race track. Thus my logic the higher the speed, the more potential of a tragic accident. Nothing compared to Earnhart's crash - just worse especially with a heavier high performance automobile. 

Let's not forget... thinner shell of race car bodies with rollcage. You really have to ask yourself... is it enough to keep the driver safe and alive - especially pushing over 200 mph and losing control of the automobile before hitting head-on to a wall or a multi roll barrel roll?

It's really simple logical thinking of what can happen. Obviously some folks - especially NASCAR don't want to admit those possibilities on those scenarios. 

[iamsuperdan]

5 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

 

Component standardization across multiple platforms, much less makes, has never been a strength of the automobile industry, and that goes for battery packs today at least as much as anything in the past.

And though proposals have been made that in addition to recharge stations, there could be facilities that quick-swap entire packs in just a few minutes, the idea falls short of reasonable expectations in reality.

Just for starters, how many different packs would every swap-shop have to stock, and how many different procedures are the change-chimps going to need to be proficient in?

We've already got a lack of universal standardization of charging capability that can make it pretty hard to go very far efficiently. So let's add another layer of complexity to an already marginal situation.

 

I really wish the manufacturers could have gotten together and agreed on a couple of battery "standards" for the EVs. Much like we have AA, AAA, C, D, etc.

Have a couple of different sizes, and some quick change stations that could swap it out in 5 minutes, and that would have been excellent.

Maybe one day we'll see each brand have replaceable batteries. Just like my power tools and my weed wacker.

[Tabbysdaddy]

 

[iamsuperdan]

That's exactly how it should be! I could see large fleets 100% getting on board with this and converting EVs to be compatible. 

[BlackSheep214]

And how will these batteries be disposed SAFELY without harming the environment? 

Oh wait... they haven't said how...

[Tabbysdaddy]

How do they safely dispose of nuclear waste without harming the environment? Doesn't stop us from using it. 

[Classicgas]

In before the lock.....

[Force]

On 2/5/2024 at 4:13 PM, iamsuperdan said:

Following the rules is the same thing. 

But the rules and regs for an EV race would be different than an ICE race, as would the format of the race.

Shorter races work just fine for other race series. BTCC, DTM, Formula E, Formula2, Formula 3, etc. Even the existing feeder series within the world of NASCAR are shorter than the main series.

If NASCAR were to bring out a separate e-race, it would by necessity be a shorter race, and would be an addition to a race weekend. eNASCAR would never replace "real" NASCAR.

 

 

I'm somewhat surprised at how many people are upset at and against the possibility that there could be more types of racing in the future. 

As I said, it's not anything I will watch.

[Joe Handley]

9 hours ago, BlackSheep214 said:

And how will these batteries be disposed SAFELY without harming the environment? 

Oh wait... they haven't said how...

They get put broken up and usable cells get sold off and used in converted vehicles, house batteries for when there are power outages (like Tesla’s Power Wall batteries), ect then those that aren’t reusable get recycled.  Here’s a Car and Driver article from last June.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car-battery-recycling/
 

On 2/5/2024 at 12:10 PM, BlackSheep214 said:

Who's upset? Not I. Im not even beating a dead horse on this issue.

Just stating the obvious scenario. The head-on test crash doesn't say how fast he was going. It certainly didn't look like he's going over 100mph. Sure... it's an EV truck - not an EV automobile. 

Average speed for NASCAR cars is around 140 - 180 mph. An EV average is anywhere from 110 - 120. 

Throw in a high performance modified  into a NASCAR EV, it has the ability to push over 200 - 220 mph on a race track. Thus my logic the higher the speed, the more potential of a tragic accident. Nothing compared to Earnhart's crash - just worse especially with a heavier high performance automobile. 

Let's not forget... thinner shell of race car bodies with rollcage. You really have to ask yourself... is it enough to keep the driver safe and alive - especially pushing over 200 mph and losing control of the automobile before hitting head-on to a wall or a multi roll barrel roll?

It's really simple logical thinking of what can happen. Obviously some folks - especially NASCAR don't want to admit those possibilities on those scenarios. 

You do realize that those tube frames are far stronger than an actual production body in white when properly designed and using the appropriate materials, right?  Wouldn’t matter what the source is propulsion is, the proper design will help absorb the impact and distribute the force of the impact through the structure of the car than into the meat bags in the vehicle. Don’t see how a 5k-6k EV would be worse than the same weight fuel burning vehicle, especially a truck or SUV or say a Chevy Bolt vs my Chrysler 200 since the Bolts weight about the same as a 2011-2014 Chrysler 200/Dodge Avenger with the V6 like I have.

[Richard Bartrop]

On 2/2/2024 at 3:40 PM, iamsuperdan said:

The point is, just like a gas engine, there are many ways to tune an EV drivetrain. And just like a gas racecar, there would be rules the teams must follow.

It's the same thing.

And NASCAR teams have a long tradition of "creative rules interpretation"