Backup camera fault disables entire vehicle: I'm impressed

[Ace-Garageguy]

I've been saying for years that the over-reliance on electronics, unnecessary complication, just plain stupid integration of every vehicle system through onboard computers (including the whole CAN-bus idea) is going to make the current crop of cars a nightmare as they age.

And I get shouted down by "everything new is better" gibberish, and the misguided who seem to believe that additional layers of processors and logic code are somehow cheaper to manufacture than a couple of wires or a cable.

Well fellas, I've been in the car biz for over 5 decades, I've worked with a LOT of mechanics (most of which were either knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers or just plain crooks), and THIS GUY IS THE BEST I'VE EVER SEEN. Anywhere.

He tells it like it is.

 

[Matt Bacon]

I’d like to have seen the video of him figuring out what was wrong with FIRST one… though it might’ve had a pretty epic run-time… I have say, though, even with much simpler, older cars you can get some pretty bizarre and hard to diagnose faults… I mean, who knew that a 2013 FIAT Panda has TWO binary “stop light switches” which can both work perfectly for their main job, but if they don’t switch in and out exactly in sync, they trigger a Christmas tree of warning lights and messages telling you the ABS, hill hold, stability control and electronic diff are disabled. Your first thought is “must be one or more of the ABS sensors, right..?”. But no, it’s just one of the computers “unable to reconcile brake position sensor signals”. So you change the switch that’s actually pushed by the brake pedal, and it doesn’t fix it. Two weeks later, a lot of reading forums by me and then my excellent mechanic dudes, and a visit to the garage later, we discover there are two of the blimmin’ things, one of which is nowhere near the brake pedal… It’s only supposed to turn the little red lights on! At least most problems, someone else has seen and posted about it online these days…

best,

M.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

31 minutes ago, Matt Bacon said:

 I mean, who knew that a 2013 FIAT Panda has TWO binary “stop light switches” which can both work perfectly for their main job, but if they don’t switch in and out exactly in sync, they trigger a Christmas tree of warning lights and messages telling you the ABS, hill hold, stability control and electronic diff are disabled...

So...ummm...only a real moron who had no clue would design anything like that.

I'm positive that circuit could work very simply, without any "logic" other than a relay or two, and would be essentially bulletproof AND easy to diagnose if it failed.

Part of what I do for a living has been designing and building custom wiring harnesses and electrical systems for rather a wide variety of vehicles, some that fly. And every day I see more and more just flat stupid spaghetti messes, with everything talking to everything else, and lotsa little things that, if they fail, trigger just the kind of bull in the video.

They apparently don't teach the KISS principle any more, to our detriment.

[Old Buckaroo]

I have a motto - if the wiring harness going into the door is larger around than a , ummm kielbasa sausage - I want no part of it. Way too much electronics for me.

[Ace-Garageguy]

42 minutes ago, Old Buckaroo said:

I have a motto - if the wiring harness going into the door is larger around than a , ummm kielbasa sausage - I want no part of it. Way too much electronics for me.

Even at that, only the driver's door...IF the vehicle has 4 window controls, 2 exterior mirror controls, and all-vehicle door lock controls...needs to be that big.

A vienna-sausage-size bundle should be adequate for the other three...including insulation and the loom.

EDIT: ...unless the seat position controls are on the doors, but in my opinion that's stupid too.

1) Wire runs should be as short as possible, with seat controls either ON the seat, or on the console ADJACENT to the seat.

2) How hard is it, really, to manually adjust a seat, after all?

"Oh...my widdle weak fingers that can only work a keyboard can't do that, and I might hurt my widdle self".

Edited January 9 by Ace-Garageguy

[webestang]

When I can't do something myself on my Mustang's I do have a place to take them. The place is close to work and these guys are the best. They never fix anything that does not need it. They do not try and up sale anything. VERY honest. Heck, I day my OD cable came loose on my 88 5.0 and not only did they fix it for free (replace OD cable bushing made of nylon), the mech said to get the brass replacement so it will never fail again.   

 

 

[Rodent]

4 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

How hard is it, really, to manually adjust a seat, after all?

"Oh...my widdle weak fingers that can only work a keyboard can't do that, and I might hurt my widdle self".

Well, couples/families of varying body types and genders that share a vehicle might appreciate a "memory" feature that adjusts the seat and sometimes the steering wheel and pedals to "their" setting after someone else drove the car. The person who performed the alignment on my car a few weeks ago was about 2 inches taller than I am, but mucked with the fore-aft, cushion height, and recline adjustments for his brief seat time.

We don't generally swap cars, but we both appreciate a multi-way power driver's seat with lumbar because they are more adjustable for comfort than just front/back manual adjustment and some of the lame-arse attempts at "manual" cushion height adjustment/rake I have seen on bottom feeder cars.

Anything on a CAN network has the ability to take out the network if it fails. I spent a scant few minutes looking at wiring diagrams and I can't figure out why the Kia camera is on both high and low speed networks, but it is. I am not going to lose sleep over it.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Rodent said:

Anything on a CAN network has the ability to take out the network if it fails.

Thanks for making my point.

EDIT: My '96 Blazer has 6-way power seats. I didn't even know it until I had tires put on it (which I usually do myself, but the compressor in the shop with the tire machines was down).

Man, I gotta tell ya. That whole minute it took to get the seat adjustment back with no memory just flat wore me out, and ruined my whole day.  

Edited January 10 by Ace-Garageguy

[THarrison351]

A while back on WatchJRGo his buddy had a problem with a relatively new F-150 and many interior accessories were not functioning. Then the the truck was having drivability issues so they decided to diagnose with a computer. Turned out a cracked rear turn signal that housed the side radar for traffic was water logged and killed everything on the CAN bus. Unplugging it fixed so many things!

[stavanzer]

I worked as an Acura Mechanic from 1988 to 1993.

One thing the the older guys taught me early was 'never' adjust the seat controls unless you had to take a 'long' (over 5 miles)highway test drive. Otherwise just leave it alone. I moved cars driven by some midgets, but I managed to make it work. Only once did I have to ask the 5'6" service writer to put a car on the rack for. Little old Asian lady, about 4'6". Seat was so close to the wheel, my fat thighs would not even fit.

Other than that one time, I seldom moved seats. It just wasn't done.

[tim boyd]

Interesting thread. 

What most of the public does not understand is that much of the complexity in today's automobiles is driven by federal legislation, unelected bureaucrats  (e.g. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration), NGOs (non-governmental advocacy groups like the Insurance, the Environmental Lobby, occupant "safety" groups such as the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety) as well as advocacy even driven by individuals (e.g. the upcoming legislation that would require drunk driving ignition lock sensors on all new cars). 

Most of these are well-meaning on their own but add them all together and we are facing the resulting complexity issues that Bill mentions, as well as numerous knock-on effects.   I could go on for miles on the detrimental impacts of this situation to the automotive driving public, but I will not bore you all here. 

But bottom line, rather than directly blaming only the automakers, we need to take a deeper. broader dive into what is causing these outcomes.   Sigh....TB   

[stinkybritches]

My wife's 2021 Honda CR-V recently had the CEL come on for an O2 sensor. But to show sympathy for the CEL, every other light and alarm decided to chime in. It was like being in a casino. Non stop flashing lights and dinging and donging. Of course, this also meant that all of the government mandated safety features were out of action. While that's not a problem for me, my wife drives worse than your average 12 year old.

[rattle can man]

Had flat on Monday. no less than 6 warning lights and three messages on the dash when I put the spare on. The genius at front desk at the repair shop had no clue why the ABS, traction control, adaptive cruise control, etc. lights came on with the spare bolted on. 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

15 hours ago, tim boyd said:

...But bottom line, rather than directly blaming only the automakers, we need to take a deeper. broader dive into what is causing these outcomes.   Sigh....TB   

I believe that, had the US automakers taken a firm stand when the gubmint began trying to tell them how to build cars, a lot of this could have been avoided.

Of course "consumer advocates", people like the self-appointed-expert-on-everything-automotive Mr. Nader (who didn't even drive), riled up public indignation by playing to public fear and ignorance, as always, so manufacturers mumbled and shuffled and caved rather than losing the sales they thought might disappear if they fought. 

And once the regulatory camel's nose was allowed in the tent, the rest of the camel followed, and here we are.

                                                  

EDIT: Electronic engine management systems and CAD-influenced combustion chamber, porting, and cam engineering are quantum leaps beyond what was possible with carbs and slide-rule engineering from the standpoint of fuel efficiency and pollution...a good thing.

But these systems can and should be entirely discreet stand-alones, robust and simple to diagnose and repair, without every add-on system in the rest of the vehicle having anything whatsoever to do with them.

 

Edited January 12 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY

[rattle can man]

tech in and of itself is not necessarily bad. It is how we apply it and use it. We seem to be losing the art of critical thinking and placing blind faith in technology. 

[Bills72sj]

I repair commercial restaurant equipment an have been doing it for 20+ years. The old school stuff I work on, I could walk up to it and figure out its problem in about 10 minutes. All the newer stuff coming online is so full of electronics I always have to call tech support or... try to read a 181 page service manual on a phone. (Imagine looking through a straw to read the encylopedia). I am so looking forward to retiring to get away from this technology. BTW my car? 1972 Grand Prix. Quadrajet, points, R12 and NO computer anything.

[Russell C]

Holy toledo. One more reason for me to keep my daily driver VW GTI, which will be celebrating its 39th birthday sometime this year. German mechanic who was an expert in Mk2 VWs told me the solitary computer in mine (for running the fuel injection) was absolutely bulletproof. My problem, of course, is obsolete out-of-production parts, but fortunately, GTI enthusiasts are filling in that problem with aftermarket replacements.

Edited January 12 by Russell C
typo

[Dave Van]

Part of the issue.....KIA

My 13 Caddy back up cam went out. Ordered a cheap China camera.  When it arrived it had a GM sticker with correct # on it. 

[peteski]

On 1/9/2025 at 1:33 PM, Old Buckaroo said:

I have a motto - if the wiring harness going into the door is larger around than a , ummm kielbasa sausage - I want no part of it. Way too much electronics for me.

Sean,  in today's world, it's nto quite like that.  The diameter doesn't matter. In some cars you have one of those couple dozen of computer modules in a car sitting in the door, and all the switches in that door (power windows, locks, power seats, mirrors, etc.) are all connected to that tiny computer module which monitors them.  Then that computer passes the status of the switches to the other computers inside the car.  So all you need in that door harness you are talking about is 12V, Ground and thin CANbus network cable (sort of like car's Internet).  No need for any sausages, and if the computer module in the door malfunctions, hell brakes loose. 🙂

[rattle can man]

Well, on the bright side of not being able to drive with an in-op camera, you won't get a ticket/ citation for faulty equipment!!!

[dmthamade]

Have to say, a module going down and taking out  the network isn't a new thing, been happening ever since cars went with the CAN Bus network. Diagnosing these faults can be a daunting task, some of the guys i work with have a pretty good handle on these problems. An excellent knowledge of electronics and basic electrical theory along with a multimeter and scanner along with a boatload of experience will get you there. Odd and weird problems happen, here a lot of them are enviroment related, rotten green wiring, sockets, connectors....body shop errors...

Don

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 hours ago, dmthamade said:

Have to say, a module going down and taking out  the network isn't a new thing, been happening ever since cars went with the CAN Bus network. Diagnosing these faults can be a daunting task...

Which is pretty much my whole point.

There is no GOOD reason to put everything in a car on the same network where one small failure can disable the entire vehicle. 

None, zero, period.

Just like the oil-bath toothed "rubber" timing belts that are falling out of favor, it was embraced by the automotive industry, monkey-see, monkey-do, because it was new and different, and helped to ensure rapid unsupported system obsolescence and therefore lessened used-car usefulness, reliability, repairability, and value...not because it was more robust, cheaper, or lighter as is widely rebleated.

And although a lot is written about "robustness" and "fault tolerance" and "wiring simplification", anyone working boots-on-the-ground in the post-warranty service end of the automobile industry knows this to be largely bull.

Edited January 14 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY

[Mark]

The other day at work, one of the office ladies was leaving and couldn't back up her vehicle.  One of the guys figured out that one or more of the backup sensors was blocked by snow/ice, cleaned them off, and she was on her way.

That's disturbing, as someone could trigger that condition by blocking the sensors (stalker, disgruntled ex, or other nutcase in general).  The victim wouldn't be aware of the problem until they were in the vehicle, and by the time they figured it out they wouldn't want to get out and wouldn't be able to back out of a parking space, driveway, or garage.  These things are being implemented without looking at all of the consequences...

[Ace-Garageguy]

39 minutes ago, Mark said:

...These things are being implemented without looking at all of the consequences...

Interestingly, these systems supposedly incorporate "fault tolerance" so minor failures like this and the OP example don't stop the car in its tracks.

Okaaaayyyy...

Edited January 15 by Ace-Garageguy

[sfhess]

On 1/9/2025 at 4:14 PM, Rodent said:

The person who performed the alignment on my car a few weeks ago was about 2 inches taller than I am, but mucked with the fore-aft, cushion height, and recline adjustments for his brief seat time.

I don't understand why it is necessary for someone at a tire shop, dealership, car wash or whatever to adjust everything that can be adjusted so they can drive the car 50 yards or so.  In my experience, they are always much shorter (I'm 6-foot-one) than I am.