How "right to repair" and limited access to repair data and specs impacts EVERY owner of late-model vehicles

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

[Dave Van]

As a life long car guy I am not happy with any manufacture for a while. 

[Mattilacken]

i have kind of decided that I won't buy anything newer than 2016.. due to stupid laws and fuel mumbo jumbo and the fact that the cars are getting les serviceable.

[Miatatom]

Who wrote and who sponsored this legislation?

[Ace-Garageguy]

31 minutes ago, Miatatom said:

Who wrote and who sponsored this legislation?

Can't go there without getting "political", but the info is out there on the web if you want to contact your representatives.

[LDO]

I’m interested but I’m also just tired of being outraged all the time. I need to build a model. And get a dog. 

[Miatatom]

4 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Can't go there without getting "political", but the info is out there on the web if you want to contact your representatives.

That's a pointless endeavor. Chuck "the worm" Fleischman is my representative. 

[espo]

Based on this information any thought of buying a new car in the coming years will be replaced with the purchase of an older unaffected vehicle in the future.  

[Big Messer]

I am safe. My newest car is from 2012...

[Brutalform]

Unbelievable things going on anymore. Kinda reminds me of the old “clunker bill” years ago when they tried to take vehicles from owners for being a “gross polluter”. So corporations like Chevron, get their brownie points so they can pollute the environment. I’m happy it never became to be, because, how is a show car, that’s being driven on weekends to car shows, polluting the air? And many of those cars were on the hit list. There isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t think to myself, how  all of these hi tech devices are actually causing more problems, than being a solution for the problems. 

Edited 16 hours ago by Brutalform

[Big Messer]

15 minutes ago, Brutalform said:

how  all of these hi tech devices are actually causing more problems, than being a solution for the problems. 

Because they "conveniently" have a solution for the problems THEY cause. All my old cars from the Carb Era, when checked for something not working, it was lack of either gas, air or spark. I had a '92 Dodge van that reliably would fry the computer a week after the warranty expired. Then the diff broke. Being specific for that year couldn't find another. 

[Rodent]

5 hours ago, espo said:

Based on this information any thought of buying a new car in the coming years will be replaced with the purchase of an older unaffected vehicle in the future.  

Your 2018 Charger probably has a "secure gateway" that requires technicians to take an extra step to check for DTCs. It's not a huge leap for a good shop. All they really want to know is who is accessing the data and to make sure it isn't a hacker trying to clone a key in the Piggly Wiggly parking lot.

 

https://webapp.autoauth.com/

 

 

[rattle can man]

From what I understand a certain tractor company had agreed to provide farmers with what they need to repair their own vehicles. But they are still making it hard for the owners to do their own repairs.

[Brutalform]

The way I see this, is, fairly recently consumers were not running out and purchasing a new vehicle as soon as, or sometimes even before their current vehicle is paid off. The average vehicle in the US now is over 10 years old.  This caused a huge over stock of cars that were just sitting on lots. The manufacturers were loosing money and their minds, and so now here we are. It’s pretty sad that vehicles used for basic transportation for millions, now becomes another tool to steal money from people who are trying to make ends meet. And this is with almost everything. From refrigerators to tv sets, all made very cheap and designed to break. It’s hard to find any product that has real quality anymore. They have us all right where they want us. You can write your state rep, but that hardly ever works anymore, because their lined pockets are way more important than the people they represent. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

45 minutes ago, Brutalform said:

The way I see this, is...

Consumers are in general really pretty ignorant of the stark realities concerning the products they purchase.

Sure, there are tons of online product reviews, but how many of them are truly objective and openly criticize unnecessary overcomplication, complexity, or poor materials and design?

How many 'consumer advocates' even know enough about the nuts and bolts of automobiles (or anything else) to provide really meaningful info, how many 'educated' consumers in today's world of vanishing general knowledge would understand it if it was presented, and how many actually even bother to read the reviews (which seem for the most part to be nothing more than lightly camouflaged advertising anyway)?

[mikemodeler]

Let's not forget that many of the newer vehicles have features and systems dictated by the government, leading to more complicated diagnostic repairs and costly parts. Ask yourself when was the last time a government mandate resulted in lower costs or less complications of your life? 

[Rob Hall]

Reality is complex.   Modern cars are complex.  It is what it is. 

[stavanzer]

3 minutes ago, Rob Hall said:

Reality is complex.   Modern cars are complex.  It is what it is. 

Nope, Rob. 

I'll politely disagree.

If you don't think reality wasn't as complex 110 years ago, you are mistaken. I've wrenched on and worked with 100-120 year old cars and engines. The engineering, while not as sophisticated as ours is today, is just as clever in problem solving. Yes, the stuff is much more simple. But, the thinking and engineering aren't.  

Reality has always been harsh, unforgiving, and complicated. Are cars don't have to be. But, they are. Why? Good Question. Government Mandates? Engineering Run Amuck? Too many mid-wit engineers trying to "improve" things that don't need improving? The Profit Motive in Overdrive?

Take your pick.

But, our cars and our society didn't have to be this way. Too many smooth talking Liars. Too many folks too "busy" to pay attention to anything that does not directly affect them. Technology that enables grifters to steal larger and larger sums. It all adds up.

[Rob Hall]

4 minutes ago, stavanzer said:

Nope, Rob. 

I'll politely disagree.

If you don't think reality wasn't as complex 110 years ago, you are mistaken. I've wrenched on and worked with 100-120 year old cars and engines. The engineering, while not as sophisticated as ours is today, is just as clever in problem solving. Yes, the stuff is much more simple. But, the thinking and engineering aren't.  

 

Nothing is going to change, though...cars will continue to get more complex.   Complaining about them on the internet isn't going to change anything....I've heard people whining about complexity of new cars as long as I've been into cars (since the late 70s).   I remember my older brother complaining about fiddly carburetors on 70s cars.. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Rob Hall

[stavanzer]

Just now, Rob Hall said:

Nothing is going to change, though...cars will continue to get more complex. 

Sadly, you are probably correct.

[Ace-Garageguy]

27 minutes ago, Rob Hall said:

Reality is complex.   Modern cars are complex.  It is what it is. 

The thing is though...The OP in THIS thread is specifically about manufacturers limiting or outright blocking access to repair information and specs to anyone but their own dealers.

The totally unnecessary complexity is one issue, but when it's compounded by the virtual refusal of the makers of this stuff to allow anyone but their own dealer shops to work on it...shops that often lack the expertise and can't get parts either...you have a real serious problem that has widespread consequences...and maybe the basis for billions of dollars in class-action suits.

Consumers have been convinced they need vibrating carpets and talking cup-holders in order to make the demanding commute to work, or to take the kids to soccer practice, but when the failure of these stupidly 'interconnected' non-essential systems render an otherwise perfectly usable vehicle inoperative...and nobody but the dealer can even begin to attempt to fix them...something needs to change.

Edited 4 hours ago by Ace-Garageguy

[Brutalform]

45 minutes ago, mikemodeler said:

Let's not forget that many of the newer vehicles have features and systems dictated by the government, leading to more complicated diagnostic repairs and costly parts. Ask yourself when was the last time a government mandate resulted in lower costs or less complications of your life? 

Exactly. They should throw us a bone once in a while at least. 

[Brutalform]

14 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

The thing is though...The OP in THIS thread is specifically about manufacturers limiting or outright blocking access to repair information and specs to anyone but their own dealers.

The totally unnecessary complexity is one issue, but when it's compounded by the virtual refusal of the makers of this stuff to allow anyone but their own dealer shops to work on it...shops that often lack the expertise and can't get parts either...you have a real serious problem that has widespread consequences...and maybe the basis for billions of dollars in class-action suits.

Nissan, I can say has been keeping their customers at their dealerships for years. I can’t speak of other manufacturers, as I’ve only owed Nissan in the last two decades for my everyday driver. I’ve never been able to buy a part at the auto store, as it’s always a “dealer only” item, sending me to the dealership to buy a specific part. What’s bad about this is they are taking away all other options from  us to decide who and where we want our vehicles repaired. I can still preform most work on my cars, as my health will allow. Saving me dollars, but sadly, this will end too. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Brutalform

[Ace-Garageguy]

49 minutes ago, mikemodeler said:

Let's not forget that many of the newer vehicles have features and systems dictated by the government, leading to more complicated diagnostic repairs and costly parts. Ask yourself when was the last time a government mandate resulted in lower costs or less complications of your life? 

Agreed, but here's the thing. I'm sufficiently immersed and versed in the realities of vehicle design to know beyond doubt that the 'interconnectedness' of secondary bells-and-whistles vehicle systems with primary engine-and-driveline systems is unnecessary and foolish.

Stand-alone engine. transmission, and driveline systems that talk to each other but can function independently, therefore NOT bricking the entire vehicle if one fails, make a whole lot more sense. And secondary systems like wipers, seats, mirrors, cameras, instruments, lights, etc. can still be analog anyway, but in any case should NEVER be able to brick the whole car...which DOES HAPPEN.

I'm also well aware of all the "reasons" presented for vehicle-wide 'interconnectedness', and frankly, in a rational world that's populated by more than just rebleaters, the "reasons" just don't wash.

[Rob Hall]

I've heard of dealer-only parts and dealer-only tools.  I remember 25+ years ago when I had a BMW if I used brake pads not installed at the dealer the brake warning light would stay on, took a dealer specific tool or code to clear it IIRC.