JO-HAN Molds?

[Casey]

Hans, I hope you don't mind me sharing this pic you took, but this is too good not to share.

"Hey what's that over there?"

"Oh, just the wood master pattern pieces for the '70 Plymouth Superbird body"

[jbwelda]

thanks for dragging this topic up, those are some epic photos of the johan building. i didnt think they even would have had a building in 92 but there you have it!

someone mentioned whoever purloined the molds should be proud of themselves (sarcastically of course) but my understanding is that those molds were for some obsolete equipment and no one could use them anyhow, or maybe johan could but their equipment was getting old and was itself totally obsolete. so maybe it was just meant to be, plus those molds had to be getting pretty loose from use anyhow.

[gtx6970]

What ? hard to find and expensive ??

Heck, , I got these for 45 bucks for the lot last weekend and the Olds and Fury are still sealed. ,, You guys must be mistaken.

I'll give you ALL your money back for just the 1962 Dodge and 1962 Plymouth, you can keep the rest for free

[Ace-Garageguy]

Fascinating photos.

Kind of puts to rest the often-repeated notion that injection-molding dies or tools have to weigh thousands of pounds and be moved by forklift, eh?

[Art Anderson]

Fascinating photos.

Kind of puts to rest the often-repeated notion that injection-molding dies or tools have to weigh thousands of pounds and be moved by forklift, eh?

What you see are tooling "inserts", which had to be placed into a much larger mold base (or frame, if you will). AMT, MPC, and I suspect even Monogram and Revell used essentially the same sort of system.

Art

[Ace-Garageguy]

What you see are tooling "inserts", which had to be placed into a much larger mold base (or frame, if you will). AMT, MPC, and I suspect even Monogram and Revell used essentially the same sort of system.

Art

I'm aware of that, and I'm sure everyone appreciates that clarification. I think it's good for modelers to understand the hardware and processes involved in making this stuff.

My point, which I should have made clearer, is that dies as shown could have easily been spirited away by just about anyone. I've read several statements that tooling couldn't have been smuggled out because it was simply too large. Obviously not so.

And obviously tooling inserts would be useless unless suitable injection-molding equipment, (including bases, frames, etc) was available that would function with the particular insert design.

[johnbuzzed]

I was stationed at Selfridge ANGB in Mount Clemens in '74 and '75, just a few minutes away from MPC, AMT and JoHan. Of course, I never went to any of them... who woulda thunk...?

Edited October 24, 2012 by johnbuzzed

[GMP440]

Very interesting photos. Had no idea that the molds were small. Were there more than one mold for each car in order to have a good pace on production? They must not have done huge amounts of production like Revell, AMT , etc. Were Johan kits produced in small amounts compared to the other kit companies?

Judging from the pics of the tables with the molds, looks like it was a messy and cluttered place to work at.

[thatz4u]

The truth is, that like the 1948 Tucker, the missing molds were bought by shill bidders from AMT & Revell.

Then they were hidden at a ranch in Roswell, NM & later went to a storage hanger at Area 51 where they remain till this very day.....

[Ace-Garageguy]

The truth is, that like the 1948 Tucker, the missing molds were bought by shill bidders from AMT & Revell.

Then they were hidden at a ranch in Roswell, NM & later went to a storage hanger at Area 51 where they remain till this very day.....

Man, really ??? That would explain the rumor I've been hearing about the FTL Tucker starship project. Wow.

[johnbuzzed]

I heard they were in that huge warehouse with the Ark of the Covenant (or, was that Warehouse 13...?) Whatever: it would be great if those molds were actually located and used for their specific purpose and not melted down for scrap. We can hop for the best.

[Casey]

My point, which I should have made clearer, is that dies as shown could have easily been spirited away by just about anyone. I've read several statements that tooling couldn't have been smuggled out because it was simply too large. Obviously not so.

That's exactly what I thought of when I was looking through Hans' album last night. Look at all the different insert pieces, and how some are different heights, and so on. I can now understand how it may have been possible at Jo-Han for them to use the same Hemi engine inserts in multiple kits, while using other inserts specific to the particular car being molded. I have no idea if the actually did that or not, but the size of the inserts makes a strong piece of evidence in support of why these inserts are probably gone for good.

And obviously tooling inserts would be useless unless suitable injection-molding equipment, (including bases, frames, etc) was available that would function with the particular insert design.

I think maybe Art mentioned this once, but I thought I remembered someone saying Jo-Han's molding equipment was WWI era, and would not easily translate to the IM machines AMT, Revell, Monogram, etc. used.

I'm now wondering if the "MB 79" and "MB 107" notations indicate which mold base the inserts were to be placed inside of?:

[jeffs396]

Interesting stuff!!!

Can any of our Detroit metro-area members confirm if the building still stands?

[Casey]

Can any of our Detroit metro-area members confirm if the building still stands?

See post #22

[GMP440]

Johan will always be a mystery to all. Does anyone on this board know any of the ex-employees that worked at Johan?

Those are the people that can really give us the true story of the inner workings going on at Johan. Would love to read their firsthand accounts about the day to day operations.

[lordairgtar]

WOW !! I wish I had one of these state of the art machines, so I wouldn't have to hammer in all those wire metal axles:

THANKS for the pics Hans !!!

I could build that for you. You got an extra $10,000 laying around? LOL. BTW, the company I work for has old molding equipment we use to mold Simson plug ends to some test cables we make. It's quite old and had the ability to be changed into whatever config the dies required. Damned thing leaks and makes a ton of noise, but it still works. I don't know who made the machine but it has ARTOS components and Allen Bradley switch panels. Not like the modern Van Dorn units I worked with when I worked at Sussex plastics molding mary Kay and Avon boxes

Edited October 24, 2012 by lordairgtar

[Rob Hall]

Johan will always be a mystery to all. Does anyone on this board know any of the ex-employees that worked at Johan?

Those are the people that can really give us the true story of the inner workings going on at Johan. Would love to read their firsthand accounts about the day to day operations.

They probably took a vow of omerta and took their Johan secrets to the grave.

[Art Anderson]

Very interesting photos. Had no idea that the molds were small. Were there more than one mold for each car in order to have a good pace on production? They must not have done huge amounts of production like Revell, AMT , etc. Were Johan kits produced in small amounts compared to the other kit companies?

Judging from the pics of the tables with the molds, looks like it was a messy and cluttered place to work at.

To begin with: JoHan, compared to the really big operation that AMT Corporation once was (in the 60's, AMT was producing 10's of millions of model car kits every year!) was really a quite small company. John Hanle, the founder and owner was, from all I have been told, very much a "one man band" much of the time--a highly talented modeler (Hanle was known for his hand carved collection of 1/72 scale WW-1 and WW-2 aircraft, which collection was displayed for several decades in the USAF Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio), who did work on a lot of the mastering for the model car kits bearing his name. I've also been told by a couple of model car personalities who actually worked for JoHan for a few years, that his injection-molding machines were rather primitive, dating from the early days of injection-molding during WW-II. While JoHan produced a lot of subjects that would be quite popular today, it's wise to remember that in the 1960's, kids were not enamored with model kits of AMC Ramblers, Rambler Americans, Cadillacs, full-sized Oldsmobiles, Studebaker Larks. Likewise, while HARD to believe today, Plymouths, Chryslers and DeSoto's were pretty low on the popularity scale with the kids who were the 1960's primary market for model car kits. This factor alone dictated that for the most part, JoHan kits were pretty low on most 12-16yr old model car builders' radar screens. Add to this that JoHan NEVER displayed at any of the Hobby Industry Association of America trade shows back then either (I was at every HIAA trade show from 1964 through 1986, and JoHan was always conspicuous by their absence. Again, more reason why JoHan never achieved the level of visibility, of marketability that the "biggies" such as AMT, Revell, Monogram and even Aurora enjoyed back then.

JoHan's injection molding presses, being as obsolete as they were by 1960's standards, also were much smaller machines than those in use at Revell, Monogram and AMT, which presses could handle injection molds that were approximately 24 X 48 X about 18 inches, all solid blocks of steel (with just a few "inserts" which were the tooling for wheels and of course the sliding cores for molding one-piece body shells). JoHan also apparently insisted on using a fairly valuable alloy for tooling inserts in their molds, beryllium copper (an alloy used a lot in Europe as well). While a fairly hazardous metal, beryllium is in the range of semi-precious metals, and as such, those inserts had a pretty high scrap value. In addition, so I've been told, Mr Hanle could be a rather difficult person to work for, which apparently lead to a lot of dissatisfaction and hard feelings among his employees (and allegedly many of his production workers didn't come from the best side of the tracks either). As the story goes, apparently a number of fairly small tooling inserts (those beryllium copper inserts had to be press fitted into steel mold frames or blocks, and could be changed out rather quickly) disappeared, more than likely in someone's lunchbox at the end of the shift, and found their way to any one of a number of scrap dealers in the area. This would seem to explain the missing tooling parts that have been mentioned many times whenever JoHan is discussed.

JoHan was not alone in the realm of missing tooling inserts. At a Mike's Miniature Motors Model Car Swap Meet in Waukesha WI in 1994, a customer appeared at my table (AAM), and invited me to take a look at some model car injection molding tooling, should I be interested. What he had were about a dozen sets of "wheel hobs", the inserts AMT used to mold the outer and inner halves of wheels (these were a light press-fit into the much larger steel mold frames that AMT traditionally used). I have no idea today just what wheels those were , but in any event, I excused myself and went back to my table, as there was no practical way of my using them for anything other than paperweights.

As an aside here, all too often modelers assume that a model company can just change out this part or that almost willy-nilly, but that's far from true! That can only happen IF the kit tooling was designed and built, from the get-go to have the potential for such changes in subsequent runs of product.

Art

[Ace-Garageguy]

As an aside here, all too often modelers assume that a model company can just change out this part or that almost willy-nilly, but that's far from true! That can only happen IF the kit tooling was designed and built, from the get-go to have the potential for such changes in subsequent runs of product.

Art

So, it would certainly be prudent if, from the "get-go", both the marketing people AND the production engineering people lobbied for tooilng that could be ....relatively....easily updated or modified.

As another aside, anyone wishing to have a better understanding of the process of injection molding needs only to click here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injection_molding

and read. Though the article is not about models, it is applicable to everything made this way.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Ace-Garageguy

[paul alflen]

I KNOW THE GUY WHOSE PICTURE APPEARED PAINTING THE PROMOS. I JUST DON'T KNOW IF I CAN SAY HIS NAME HERE? HE IS A BIG PROMO COLLECTOR FROM THE DETROIT AREA. CAN I SAY HIS NAME HERE CASEY? DO I NEED HIS PERMISSION FIRST?

[Tom Geiger]

These include: the Chrysler Turbine, Rambler Station Wagon, and the Rambler Unibody Promo.

The Rambler Unibody Promo sold by Okie was resin and was cast by I believe it was Best Resin for him, as were the resin interiors he offered for a number of the old promos. I bought the interior and clear vacuform glass for the '56 Desoto from Okey years ago.

I believe Okey also had a few of the classic car molds, a Mercedes and at least 1-2 others. When he first announced the New Johan, he put out a flyer showing these being released as Rat Rods. Of course we never saw them.

I was told that Okey also had the '59 Dodge kit, and it was ready to go, only needing funding to produce. We never saw that one.

I was told that he also had the Johan Showcase molds and did a run of these early on. Apparently the molder misunderstood and produced them in the same green glass that the windows in the Plymouth Police Car were done in, making them useless.

Many of the molds were defaulted on a workmans lien either for work done on them, or for molding of kits that wasn't paid for by Okey. Ernie of Lindberg fame was going to start a new company and offered up the Oldsmobile and the 59 Rambler Wagon. Apparently that effort died.

Feel free to dispute the above or add to it.

[Rob Hall]

I was told that Okey also had the '59 Dodge kit, and it was ready to go, only needing funding to produce. We never saw that one.

He had the '59 Dodge, I bought one from him w/ a resin interior. Don't know if they were left over X-El promos or newly produced, though. He had a '56 Plymouth also IIRC, but I never got one of those.

[Mark]

He had the '59 Dodge, I bought one from him w/ a resin interior. Don't know if they were left over X-El promos or newly produced, though. He had a '56 Plymouth also IIRC, but I never got one of those.

I'm led to understand that only the '59 Rambler wagon and snap-together Chrysler Turbine Car were the only new (post-Seville) production items. Everything else (including the "limited edition" '68 Plymouth police car) was assembled from stockpiled parts that came as part of the purchase, with new decals and vacuformed clear glass added to the police car.

The original Jo-Han company was in bad shape for many years IMO. They'd lost their Dodge promotional model deals after 1964, Plymouth after 1970, AMC and Oldsmobile soon after. Only Cadillac remained, and that ended after 1979. Jo-Han rose and fell on the promotional model business. They didn't produce many kits that weren't financed (at least in part) on the back of a promo. They seemingly never had access to what would no doubt have been the biggest promo contracts, like Chevrolet and Pontiac (though they did do a couple of the latter in the mid-Fifties). And, little by little, MPC chipped away at Jo-Han's Chrysler business. Ford had some potential (was I surprised to see the Maverick kit in late 1969!), but in the end Jo-Han only did the Maverick, '71 Comet, and '72 Torino fastback.

They started out the Seventies pretty well, heading in a racing-oriented direction. But race cars get outdated fast. Though sought after now (and even when new), the USA Oldies series didn't include the best set of selections from the Jo-Han tooling archive. I'd suspect that most of what was offered was chosen more because of completeness (even mere availability) of tooling, than for potential popularity. Many of the kits differ noticeably from the original annual versions. Most lacked customizing parts, and also have later interior detail because parts of the tooling had been recut and reused in the following years' product. Some of the later non-Oldies reissues were closer to the original annual kits, but by then it was too little, too late.

[Rob Hall]

Sad story...it was the USA Oldies series that got me into the brand as a kid in the late 70s-early 80s. Have bought quite a few Johans since then, esp. liking the Mopars, Cadillacs and Oldses...have a few of the AMCs, need more.

[Casey]

I KNOW THE GUY WHOSE PICTURE APPEARED PAINTING THE PROMOS. I JUST DON'T KNOW IF I CAN SAY HIS NAME HERE? HE IS A BIG PROMO COLLECTOR FROM THE DETROIT AREA. CAN I SAY HIS NAME HERE CASEY? DO I NEED HIS PERMISSION FIRST?

I don't see any reason you can't name names (Elaine Benes excluded). Who is the mystery man? I'd love to hear from anyone who worked at/for Jo-Han.