It's about time

[Rob Hall]

Apparently, the Olds and the Ford have been in the works for awhile ... and the Ford will be a Tudor Sedan, unlike the old AMT kit, which is a Fairlane hardtop. I'm definitely hoping Revell includes a set of steelies and dog-dish caps ... perfect for cop car and 'shine hauler builds!

Yeah, could be a nice companion for the Black Window Chevy 150. If they do it full detail, a supercharged 312 would be a nice option. There was a black one of those in Hemmings Classic Cars magazine in the last 6 months or so, pretty interesting car.

[exnyman]

I have to agree with Mark Taylor on this one. In essence, to me, this looks too much like the old Sebring coupe, which never sold in huge numbers. But I agree, the challenger is probably on Borrowed time. Since it is based off retro styling cues, and the original Challenger only had one generation to draw those cues from, where do they go next with it? It would make more sense probably from a cost standpoint to revisit the Charger as a two door as it would share some parts with the 4 door. And therein lies another thing I never understood...why did they all start making the two and four door versions of cars have almost completely different sheetmetal? Makes no economic sense. Back in the old days, say, a Chevy Impala Coupe shared its entire front clip, most times trunklid, windshields, rear bumpers and much trim with its 4 door linemate. Then by 1988, a Chevy Beretta and a Corsica, though identical under the skin, shared no body panels whatsoever, though they bore a resemblance to one another. It became more expensive to tool up a coupe in an increasingly smaller market. I wouldn't mind seeing a Charger two door in addition to the Challenger, as I am a two door fan and have owned nothing but coupes/convertibles. It is so boring seeing the sea of mouse grey four door sedans that litter todays roadways.

Edited August 30, 2011 by exnyman

[bbowser]

Why was everything nicer and better in the good old days?

Selective memory, if I remember correctly?

[Harry P.]

At the risk of everyone on the forum disagreeing, the short answer is accomodating safety standards. Since the body is a folded-metal "system" usually the change from a 4-door to a 2-door means they have to re-design more than just the sheet metal on the outside.

For instance, think of how differently the body structure would need to be in order to take on a side-impact crash test sled. The 2-door has the door aperture in a different size/shape than a sedan, and the structure underneath needs to tie in to that. Obviously that's just one difference, but you can see how you may start needing to move stuff around under the skin too. Reinforcements move around, then other things need to shift to accomodate those changes...

Once you're that far in, it's basically a new car using a lot of the same components, rather than just a minimally changed car with different roof and side stampings. Since they have to re-design so much anyhow, a lot of makes take the opportunity to maximize the difference between the coupe and sedan since there's not much savings in using the same front fenders and bumper fascia versus just doing one that integrates better with the coupe body.

I can't disagree with that... it makes perfect sense!

[Aaronw]

I'm kind of surprised there are not more (any?) cars with the extracab pickup truck style suicide doors. It seems like that would really be worthwhile. It could provide the looks of a two door and still give good rear seat access like a 4 door (also sounds like a mullet joke is hiding in there somewhere).

[Joe Handley]

Honestly Aaron, this video is a good reason I wouldn't buy one.

I'd actually prefer a 2dr hatchback like my Dodge Shadow was over a coupe with the f/s van style swing out doors from the appearance side too, those little doors on a "coupe" look just as wrong as they do on the f/s vans (needless to say, I prefer the looks of sliding side doors on vans.)

Edited August 31, 2011 by Joe Handley

[Danno]

And while we're at it, a new Cougar based on the existing Mustang platform:

Congratulations!! Looks very much like an early 80's Olds.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Danno

[Danno]

Quoth the raven: "There are a bazillion 2-door Charger renderings floating around out there... everyone and their dog has done one by now."

Well, not my dog. I don't let him play on the computer. He has a tendency to send inappropriate emails to cats.

[Harry P.]

Quoth the raven: "There are a bazillion 2-door Charger renderings floating around out there... everyone and their dog has done one by now."

Well, not my dog. I don't let him play on the computer. He has a tendency to send inappropriate emails to cats.

So I'm the raven???

[MrObsessive]

Some cars have had them (Mazda RX-8, Saturn Ion to name just two) but the door ends up being small enough it's not clear how much extra versatility they really add, compared to the amount of work and compromise it takes to work them into the design.

Tell me about it! While I love the look of the suicide doors, I wonder from time to time just how safe my car would be in a side impact! Of course, I never want to find out the hard way!

Yes, I do like the rear side doors as I'm always putting something in the back seat. I generally don't like a regular four door car as the front doors are always too short for me--------and I'm a tall guy, so I like/need to have the seat as far back as possible.

Four doors with their B pillars always block my peripheral vision...........one driving dynamic I DON'T like!

[Modelmartin]

Back in the day, I believe that Baracudas outsold Challengers by a bunch. Too bad Chrysler killed off Plymouth and the chance to use the Baracuda name. I don't know if that would have helped sales. I don't like the car anyway. It is too tall and looks ungainly. The Camaro has a great look and stance and the Mustang is pretty good too. The Challenger is awkward looking.

I think the whole retro thing is shortsighted anyway. As show cars they are great. It gives the designers something fun to do and it generates enthusiasm. But on the other hand show cars in the good old days were about the future, not the past. I prefer going forward, not backward.

[Monty]

So I'm the raven???

NEVERMORE!

[Harry P.]

NEVERMORE!

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered... weak and weary...

Yikes! I guess I am the raven!

[fumi]

Good for Ford for finding a way to sell those Probes. We used to wonder if proctologists got discounts on them.

What has the Probe done to you to warrant all that hate?

They might not be the right car for you but they were not bad cars neither. The first generation was actually quite competitive in its market segment.

[Monty]

What has the Probe done to you to warrant all that hate?

They might not be the right car for you but they were not bad cars neither. The first generation was actually quite competitive in its market segment.

I thought I explained it sufficiently. At the time, I was a Mustang enthusiast & to most people like me, "Mustang" meant American designed, V8-powered cars with rear wheel drive. The Probe lacked all of those attributes. To compound the error, there were no identifying characteristics that showed it was part of the Mustang's lineage, and there were a million jokes about the car looking like something Mattel had cooked up to sit outside Barbie's Dream House. The final nail in the coffin for Mustang enthusiasts at the time was the thought of their favorite car being just a Mazda derivative.

Maybe I was lucky for having grown up when I did. I can't imagine bragging on a car whose performance could be called "zippy" or "peppy", although with today's gas prices hovering near $4.00 a gallon, I'll concede the point about mileage.

[niteowl7710]

I thought I explained it sufficiently. At the time, I was a Mustang enthusiast & to most people like me, "Mustang" meant American designed, V8-powered cars with rear wheel drive. The Probe lacked all of those attributes. To compound the error, there were no identifying characteristics that showed it was part of the Mustang's lineage, and there were a million jokes about the car looking like something Mattel had cooked up to sit outside Barbie's Dream House. The final nail in the coffin for Mustang enthusiasts at the time was the thought of their favorite car being just a Mazda derivative.

O.K. I think we all get that point for the 14th time, but that still doesn't explain the fact you still hate a car 23 years later for something that almost didn't happen. That's a mighty long time to hold a grudge against something that never occurred. "Enthusiast" or not...

[Chuck Most]

Makes me wonder if people will hate the 4-door Charger 23 years in the future... even though everyone had forgotten all about the FWD Omni-based Chargers of the early '80's.

For the thousandth time- don't care how many doors the Charger has. I don't like it because it looks like a squashed Dakota Quad Cab. End of story. It may be a fantastic driving car, but what car isn't these days?

[Monty]

O.K. I think we all get that point for the 14th time, but that still doesn't explain the fact you still hate a car 23 years later for something that almost didn't happen. That's a mighty long time to hold a grudge against something that never occurred. "Enthusiast" or not...

First, if I hadn't been an "enthusiast", I wouldn't have cared and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Do your "finger-quotes" indicate that you find something demeaning about performance car enthusiasts? Hey, drive your Prius/Scion/Corolla and be happy. Just don't ask me to settle for those. Second, the anger was also directed at Ford for thinking they could just slap the Mustang name on anything and no one would mind. Unfortunately, Ford wasn't the only car company to do something like this. I'll quote myself from page 2 of this thread: Car names are evocative to a lot of us who grew up with the "real thing" which accounts for the howls of derisive laughter heard across the US when Oldsmobile watered down the soup one more time and issued the Calais-based 442 (What'd that stand for? 4 cylinders, 4 speed and 2 gauges?), or when Chrysler tried to pass off an Omni-based econobucket as a Charger. I'm sure there are a dozen other examples of this kind of thing going on in the auto industry and Mark Taylor explained why it happens. Just don't expect a real car enthusiast to give the watered-down versions a pass just because they carry the name.

[Danno]

So I'm the raven???

Sure. Why not?

And it still looks like an 80's Olds.

[niteowl7710]

First, if I hadn't been an "enthusiast", I wouldn't have cared and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Do your "finger-quotes" indicate that you find something demeaning about performance car enthusiasts? Hey, drive your Prius/Scion/Corolla and be happy. Just don't ask me to settle for those. Second, the anger was also directed at Ford for thinking they could just slap the Mustang name on anything and no one would mind. Unfortunately, Ford wasn't the only car company to do something like this. I'll quote myself from page 2 of this thread: Car names are evocative to a lot of us who grew up with the "real thing" which accounts for the howls of derisive laughter heard across the US when Oldsmobile watered down the soup one more time and issued the Calais-based 442 (What'd that stand for? 4 cylinders, 4 speed and 2 gauges?), or when Chrysler tried to pass off an Omni-based econobucket as a Charger. I'm sure there are a dozen other examples of this kind of thing going on in the auto industry and Mark Taylor explained why it happens. Just don't expect a real car enthusiast to give the watered-down versions a pass just because they carry the name.

No my finger-quotes indicate a forest for the trees problem. I can understand why anyone (let alone people specifically enthusiastic about Mustangs) would have gathered outside Ford HQ with torches and pitchforks had they actually passed off the Probe as a Mustang. I can understand some sense of resentment towards Ford for even contemplating it. But man seriously, they came to their senses 23 years ago and never did what you're so angry about. You didn't buy a Probe, and the Probe in no way effected your life, and clearly not the life of the Mustang. I can see being angry with Chrysler for the 80's Charger, or Oldsmobile for the '80's 442 as those actually occurred and "sullied" the name of their originals. I gather your own personal experience is what is driving this since you mention "I and others wrote to Ford", you clearly believe you have a personal stake in the Mustang's survival. In which case I would like to apologize as "I and others wrote AMT demanding a police car" at about the same time and what we got was that abortion of a Taurus SHO "police" car.

Even "anger" is a bit much. It's an inanimate object. One that evokes great passion and perhaps nostalgia, but a lump of steel non-the-less. If you don't want to buy a new car, no one (except perhaps the Feds if they had their way) is pointing a gun to your head and frog-marching you to a Toyota dealership.

This "2 door, RWD, & V-8" or die mentality that rears it's ugly head on this forum about every 60 days or so when someone re-creates a "The Charger has too many doors" thread is fascinating. It's a like watching a retirement home that's a cross between "On Golden Pond" and "American Graffiti". The amount of "back in the day", "when I was young", "the glory days", "everything new is bad and ugly" is touching, but also irrational. Since it seems 95% of it is based in the fact that any car today simply doesn't "look cool like the '50's/'60's". No one has driven any of the cars they hate, they just hate them because they're foreign, or "too expensive", or not a V-8 (never mind most V-6s today have more power than the V-8s of yore - the KIA my wife wants to buy next has more HP and Torque than the LT-1 Caprice/Impala SS which was the pinnacle of cool and performance for us police car "enthusiasts") or 4 door, or power the "wrong wheels" or all of the above. Having a fun plaything car is great, I've owned several, but when it comes to transporting my wife and two daughters around I'll "settle" for the big, bloated, bells & whistles, safety filled vehicle with the warranty every time.

[Kit Basher]

Maybe I was lucky for having grown up when I did. I can't imagine bragging on a car whose performance could be called "zippy" or "peppy", although with today's gas prices hovering near $4.00 a gallon, I'll concede the point about mileage.

Monty, I suspect we are about the same age, and I want to make it clear that I love Mustangs, and agree with you that calling a Probe a Mustang would have been a major insult. I'm just saying that for what it is, a Probe is a good car. Everybody's needs and wants in a car are different, and for someone like me who rarely drives on flat, straight roads, "zippy" can be a good thing.

Let me add that I am also a performance enthusiast in the sense that I want a car I can drive, not just ride in. It's kind of a snooze in the straights, but a Probe can make your heart beat fast in the twisty parts.

Edited August 31, 2011 by basher

[MrObsessive]

As someone who once owned a wide variety of cars, including Muscle Cars------I'll take "zippy" and "great handling" over all out straight line performance these days.

I like an old car as much as the next enthusiast, but the reality of today's drivers, driving and traffic conditions, crime, etc-------make owning an old car like that for me not much fun. It would be a car I would take out on a nice day only..........and even then maybe just on a Sunday where the knucklehead drivers are at a minimum.

Not to mention, if I were ever to have a classic car again, it MUST be in a garage! Since I have no garage, and since the kind of house I live in has no provisions to build one, I'll just be satisfied with my tried and true Saturn Ion.

Say what you will about Saturns and their ilk---------but it starts every time, has given me practically ZERO trouble, and despite the fact that GM discontinued the make, mechanical parts are as near as the latest Chevy Cobalt!

[Greg Myers]

I never understood why they didn't do the concept car, which was beautiful even as a 4-door. Maybe Chrysler management just didn't get what this car was about.

"BINGO" We have a winner!

[Agent G]

If they would have called it a Monaco, I wouldn't have begun to think about it and might have even bought one. Having driven the car I agree it's a good platform albeit with some shortcomings. I did think it was not entirely suited as a police car, but I was spoiled by a 9C1 Caprice back in the day, and that my friends is a benchmark that has never again been reached.

MrsG wants a Camaro, I'm leaning towards a Mustang GT. My bro in law has a Challenger. I like the new Challenger yet admit "something" is missing from that equation. I don't dwell on the past, and like Bill would own a vintage car if it were something I could drive only on certain occasions. My neighbor has one of the few remaining '48 Ford woody's in the world and even he has stopped going out on Sundays with it. Hell he used to travel in it, now it's stored in it's own climate controlled garage.

I have even parked the vintage (sort of) BMW motorrad for the time being.

We can only dream....................

G

[Rob Hall]

I like the current Charger R/T...test drove one a few weeks ago along w/ the Chrysler 300C when I was car shopping. I've also driven the Mustang GT, Camaro SS, and Challenger R/T...find all of them interesting...what I'd really like to try is the Mustang Boss 302. I've had 3 Mustangs over the years, and may get another one for my next fun car in a year or two..