Scale auto renaissance?

[highway]

I'd love having a kit of that Dodge pickup, though.

Uh Chuck, look at the grille really close!! Please don't insult Fords by calling it a Dodge!!

Edited October 23, 2011 by highway

[Casey]

Sorry, but to us, the cars you mentioned are just forgettable 70's cars. As the country that invented the hot rod and the muscle car, we're really rather ashamed of them.

I have to agree. The mid '70s were a low point for American autos, save for a few exceptions like the Super Duty '74 T/As, '77-'78 Trans Ams, and the Lil Red/Midnite Express pickups. Plus, there were plenty of less than exciting '70s American subjects tooled up back in the day- '76 Nova, '77 Volare, '77 Chevette, ever version of a Corvette that was made from '75-'81, '75 Plymouth Fury, and even the soon to be reissued Colonnade Olds Cutlass from JoHan. There's just not much from that time period which excites people, and thus would be good new kit fodder.

[Erik Smith]

Sorry, but to us, the cars you mentioned are just forgettable 70's cars. As the country that invented the hot rod and the muscle car, we're really rather ashamed of them.

I have to admit, I think you are right. I was born in 1971. I road in cars through the 70s and 80s. My first car was a 1981 Caprice Classic. Then a 78 Toyota. And so on. I have decent memories of these cars but I have zero desire to build them or the cars I saw and grew up with.

[Junkman]

Sorry, but to us, the cars you mentioned are just forgettable 70's cars. As the country that invented the hot rod and the muscle car, we're really rather ashamed of them.

When I mentioned late Fifties and early Sixties cars back in the mid eighties, I was told the exact same thing about them.

[Brett Barrow]

When I mentioned late Fifties and early Sixties cars back in the mid eighties, I was told the exact same thing about them.

I guess it's just what you've been influenced by over there. Maybe they're cool cars if that's what your concept of what an American car is. Sorta like how the Japanese think of Roger Moore as the iconic James Bond because those were the first ones they got...

But something like a 73 Monaco to an American is just a forgettable 70's car, and it always will be, even if your parents had one or you learned to drive with one or whatever. I wouldn't recommend that a resin caster invest a couple hundred dollars to make one, and I certainly wouldn't recommend that a plastic company invest hundreds of thousands of dollars to make one.

[Darin Bastedo]

Junkman, I think one of the problems your running into inthis debate is one of culture. Perhaps being british you see the late seventies barges as iconic american designs, where we simply see them as old ugly and obsolete. I'm sure alot of the preconceptions we have of the british are vastly different than reality. Those of us who lived that part of american automotive history remember the reality of those cars. They were ill handling, poorly built cars that (in the part of the USA I lived in, started rusting after the first winter. The had no power, and crushed velvet interiors that made them look like a mobile brothel.

Don't get me wrong there were a few standout cars in the 1970's but they were few and far between, and most of them have already been kitted.

[Dave Ambrose]

A couple of things that haven't been mentioned

1) The market is now worldwide. We might not balance the trade deficit with model cars, but the do get sold in Europe. We buy Japanese and European models here.

2) Licensing fees. Manufacturers are charging to use their designs in models these days. I don't know how much it adds to the cost, but it's significant. I know there was a lot of consternation when Boeing started enforcing their trademark rights with kit manufacturers.

3) The cost for designing a kit is a fraction of what it was 20 or 30 years ago. We can thank cheap yet powerful PCs for that. CAD software is much more affordable than it used to be. There were also advances in mold making technology, combined with offshoring that supply chain. brought costs down further. Chinese companies can produce kits cheaply.

Improved development methods have kept us alive. If we were stuck with the old methods, we wouldn't be producing any kits at all. A production run for a popular kit is 10% of what it was in the late 60's and early 70s. There's just no place to amortize the development and tooling costs. Taking inflation into account, kit costs are twice what they were in the 60's. Given the shrunken market, I think we're doing well.

I don't know whether the same market shrinkage has happened in Europe and Japan. Maybe someone who knows can comment.

We also have a better distribution system. There are fewer levels, and online sales reaches the markets where there's no suitable hobby shop. Again more volume keeps the cost reasonable.

I can sympathize with the younger people. I think it's safe to say that we all build cars in scale that we'd be thrilled to have in real life. I'm interested in Salt Flats and land speed record cars. Those are pretty tough to find in any era.

Still, I feel thankful. We have good products. We have a good community. We're all having fun. What's not to like?

[martinfan5]

And why should they? Model cars are way more popular in Japan than they are here. Japanese kit manufacturers are going to cater to their own domestic market, just as our manufacturers cater to our domestic market.

I wasn't saying they should, I was just pointing it out, thats all, I would not expect them to cater to our market, And there are a lot kits that do have options to make them either RH or LH drive. And if the American company's continue to issue or reissue a reissue of an reissued kit from 40 or 50 years ago, the Japanese company's will be getting most of kit money in the future.

I am not saying that I want to them to stop making older car kits, I just want to find room for some newer car kits , thats all I am asking for, from what people are saying on here , that's to much to ask for.

I too would like to see the boring forgettable cars of the 70's made as well, I can some what related to them, seeing them in movies and tv shows, some four door sedans would be nice, I could use them to make police cars from that era.

Edited October 23, 2011 by martinfan5

[Brett Barrow]

Junkman, I think one of the problems your running into inthis debate is one of culture. Perhaps being british you see the late seventies barges as iconic american designs, where we simply see them as old ugly and obsolete. I'm sure alot of the preconceptions we have of the british are vastly different than reality. Those of us who lived that part of american automotive history remember the reality of those cars. They were ill handling, poorly built cars that (in the part of the USA I lived in, started rusting after the first winter. The had no power, and crushed velvet interiors that made them look like a mobile brothel.

Don't get me wrong there were a few standout cars in the 1970's but they were few and far between, and most of them have already been kitted.

Dead on! Power robbing emissions standards, the hideous 5-mph bumper, insurance regulations, and atrocious quality control changed the way Americans felt about post-1972 American cars even when those cars were still showroom new. We hated them then, because we felt like they were being forced on us because of these factors. Is a 73 Monaco kinda cool looking? Yeah, it is, but it's exactly what we hate about that era, that it's style-over-substance. From WWII to 1972 the "American car" meant something much different than what it means from 1973 onwards.

[Tonioseven]

Having been around in the '70s and having OWNED cars from the '70s, I concur with what's being said about cars from those eras. I thoroughly enjoyed my '77 Grand Prix but not until I put a 400 in it from a pre-1972 LeMans in it. I'd LOVE to have a kit of it but it won't happen anytime soon. I was quite pleased when they kitted the '77 Monte carlo and I have build several of them. I may still build another but for the most part, I'm content with what's being produced by the kitmakers these days.

[Junkman]

I don't know whether the same market shrinkage has happened in Europe and Japan. Maybe someone who knows can comment.

Car model kit building and collecting never was that strong in Europe. Plastic model kits were always more associated with airplane, ship, and military modelling. This explains why there are so few shows in Europe for model cars only. Most modelling shows are 95% non-automotive subjects and even the small automotive section is at least 50% trucks (I mean, big trucks, like semis and heavy haulage stuff).

Few people know that even this isn't the real picture, since the biggest plastic kit market in Europe is buildings for model railway layouts, a millions of Euros business, and they are also exported in huge numbers to the rest of the world.

The car model enthusiast in Europe has traditionally been catered for predominantly with ready-made diecasts, and predominantly in 1:43 scale. In addition, the European car model enthusiast has been spoiled with 1:18 models over the past quarter century, so for most there never really was a need to build model cars from kits. If you mention "building model cars" in Europe, most people have an imaginary picture of an RC-model in front their eyes.

For many Europeans who do so, the interest in building plastic car model kits is often triggered by their love for American subjects. There are of course others, like people who like bigger scales than 1:43, or even 1:18, the aforementioned heavy trucks, classics, modern supercars, formula 1 Grand Prix (or other motorsports), you name it. What I'm trying to get at though, is that in no other industry whatsoever, the USA has a bigger market share in Europe proportion-wise, than in automotive plastic kits. It's probably closely followed by railway models, but the proportion they own of that market is smaller. This is in such stark contrast to the nonchalance the American model kit companies demonstrate towards this fact, that it is downright irritating. They predominantly leave the distribution (or rather the lack of it) of their products to dubious email account companies and therefore the kits are seldom found in any shops, other than the ones, who import them directly from the USA themselves, like US-Car Models Schenkenberger in Frankfurt, USA Modellautos in Adlikon, Switzerland, or Polarbears3kitscatcat, a bizarre model kit and teddy bear shop in Poole, Dorset, run by a couple that could even by the demanding standards set by British intellectuals be classified as outstandingly eccentric (needless to say that I just love the place). This is a huge mistake in a time and age where products must be shoved into people's arrr... errr... faces for them to realize that they actually are available for purchase.

So car modelling (as we understand it here in this forum) never was as strong in Europe than it was in the States. It became smaller over the past 20 years by a smimilar proportion and for similar reasons as elsewhere in the world (except maybe Japan, where it appears to have made a surge). All of the European plastic model kit manufactureres have folded at some stage, with Revell AG being the notable exception. What came out of the ashes of the likes of Heller, Airfix, or Italeri, car model kit wise, is pretty dismal, as you all might know. There haven't been any new developments in the past 20 or so years either (except for - you guessed it - Revell AG), and if it appeared to be, it was merely repacking and marketing a Japanese kit. I don't really know what the reason for this is, but it might have to do with the fact that most of the reincarnated model kit manufactureres in Europe are now owned by model railway companies. Non automotive subjects are going strong as ever, but automotive is treated as the stepchild (did I mentioned already, that the notable exception is Revell AG?).

Hence, plastic car model building and collecting is currently a "pull" system in Europe, with which I mean, that the builders and collectors must make an active effort to obtain the objects of their desire, unless it's trucks, or whatever the AG in Germany has to offer.

Before I forget:

There is another thing in Europe which contributes to car model kit sales - slot car racing. After being pronounced dead during the Seventies, it re-emerged in the Eighties as a fully fledged recreational sport for adults, believe it or not. There are countless clubs and there are sanctioned racing series on regional, national and international levels. In their "stock" (I.e. kit-based) formulas, those guys have a tremendous consumption of model kits.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Junkman

[Chuck Most]

American automotive history hasn't stopped in 1972, you know. The model kit industry pretty much has, though.

THANK YOU!!!!

[Chuck Most]

Uh Chuck, look at the grille really close!! Please don't insult Fords by calling it a Dodge!!

I was reffering to the mid '50's Dodge in Darrin's post.

[Chuck Most]

Sorry, but to us, the cars you mentioned are just forgettable 70's cars. As the country that invented the hot rod and the muscle car, we're really rather ashamed of them.

Try speaking for yourself and not the rest of the class, please. Just because 'we' invented the hot rod and muscle car doesn't make 'us' experts on what makes a car cool.

[Harry P.]

There will always be a kit that someone wants that's never been kitted. As long as they keep making cars, there will be cars that someone somewhere wants a kit of, and obviously they can't all be kitted. So this "Why don't they made a kit of xxxxx" type of argument will go on forever and will never be solved. But if you look at the overall "big picture"- new kits that are available, old kits either being re-issued or available from more places than ever before (internet), the explosion of the aftermarket, etc., I don't think model car builders really have a whole lot to complain about.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong (thank you, Dennis Miller)...

[Modelmartin]

A couple of random memories of walking into showrooms in the 70s:

A Chrysler?Plymouth dealership which is long closed(80s) - Why are there grinder scratches - big grinder scratches - under the paint? and in the showroom?

A Lincoln/Mercury dealership with a Cartier edition Mark something - Why is the headliner/ sunroof assembly handing down so low it hits my head when I sit in it ( I am 5"9")?

Most American Cars from about 73-75 on are just horrid. 4000 lb Corvettes with 200 HP smogged engines, deisel Cadillacs and Chevettes, Flat black Pintos and Mavericks, What did the Japanese come out with in the 70s? 240Z, RX-7, Accords, etc.

I concur that tooling up model kits of 70s and 80s US cars would be a waste with very few exceptions.

[Modelmartin]

There will always be a kit that someone wants that's never been kitted. As long as they keep making cars, there will be cars that someone somewhere wants a kit of, and obviously they can't all be kitted. So this "Why don't they made a kit of xxxxx" type of argument will go on forever and will never be solved. But if you look at the overall "big picture"- new kits that are available, old kits either being re-issued or available from more places than ever before (internet), the explosion of the aftermarket, etc., I don't think model car builders really have a whole lot to complain about.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong (thank you, Dennis Miller)...

Totally agree with you, Harry. I think they will tool up my 1910 Olds Limited touring car just after they tool up for your 1/8 scale Superbird!! :lol:

[Harry P.]

Totally agree with you, Harry. I think they will tool up my 1910 Olds Limited touring car just after they tool up for your 1/8 scale Superbird!! :lol:

Yep... they'll be taking care of us real soon now...

[Junkman]

A couple of random memories of walking into showrooms in the 70s:

A Chrysler?Plymouth dealership which is long closed(80s) - Why are there grinder scratches - big grinder scratches - under the paint? and in the showroom?

A Lincoln/Mercury dealership with a Cartier edition Mark something - Why is the headliner/ sunroof assembly handing down so low it hits my head when I sit in it ( I am 5"9")?

Most American Cars from about 73-75 on are just horrid. 4000 lb Corvettes with 200 HP smogged engines, deisel Cadillacs and Chevettes, Flat black Pintos and Mavericks, What did the Japanese come out with in the 70s? 240Z, RX-7, Accords, etc.

I concur that tooling up model kits of 70s and 80s US cars would be a waste with very few exceptions.

See, most British cars of the Seventies didn't have any quality problems. They weren't built at all.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Junkman

[sjordan]

Personally, I think the 70s-80s era was a time of poor auto craftsmanship on a global basis. Audi nearly died as a brand from cars that slipped into gear from neutral, rustbuckets were everywhere, Peugeot and Fiat quality problems caused their removal from the US market along with other brands, and even Rolls-Royces from the 70s typically bring under $30,000 today while older and newer models command much higher prices. Just my $2 worth (that's 2¢ adjusted for inflation).

[MrObsessive]

Most American Cars from about 73-75 on are just horrid. 4000 lb Corvettes with 200 HP smogged engines, deisel Cadillacs and Chevettes, Flat black Pintos and Mavericks, What did the Japanese come out with in the 70s? 240Z, RX-7, Accords, etc.

I concur that tooling up model kits of 70s and 80s US cars would be a waste with very few exceptions.

As a teen in the mid-late '70's, I can vividly remember being disappointed year after year as the '70's wore on, with what the American manufacturers were putting out. Let's see-----Landau roofs, "Opera" windows, true two door hardtops were a thing of the past, and unless you were Cadillac, there was no such thing as a convertible.

Another BIG annoyance was the "tape-stripe" package that was foisted on what were previously nice muscle cars. I guess if there were stripes on it, the manufacturers thought that actually made the car go faster?

As Harry mentioned though, someone will want a model of a particular car that they owned or driven way back when even if it wasn't terribly popular in its day. Now frankly, I wouldn't mind having models of my Driver's Ed cars in High School..................

1977 Cutlass Supreme two door

1977 Grand Prix

1977 Chevelle Malibu

Not fast cars by any means, but pleasantly styled and nice cruisers in their day.

[Chuck Most]

1:8 scale Superbird? Not my thing, but I do admit that would be VERY cool. Especially if it were a full-blown NASCAR-spec rig.

I'll join Andy and say I'd like a '10 Oldsmobile as well. (Know what? Put me down for a 1:25 Curved Dash as well. Something about those old motor buggies just fascinates me.)

Just pepper the golden oldies with something a bit more consistent with the century we're living in now, that's all I'm sayin.

[Craig Irwin]

I'd buy a 1910 Old's Limited, but I can't think of any car or truck built after the mid 70's I really want.

Cars were always about freedom, being able to get in it and go where you want to, somewhere exciting. Teenagers are the only ones who think this way today. To the rest of us cars are an appliance we use them to go where we have to go, like work or shopping.

At first cars were all about "whats new this year", yearly styling changes and such. The 50's were all flashy colors, fins, chrome and V8's, the 60's were youth and horsepower. The 70's were all about lowered expectations and government intervention.

I drive late model front wheel drive compacts, but I have no interest in building models of them.

[Aaronw]

I know they are a lot of newer cars kits being tooled by the Japanese manufacturers , but there are down sides to those kits as well, most are curbside, and the price for the kits are a lot more. No I am not saying I want to see more Prius kits being made, or cars along those lines. I just want to see them bring out a few newer cars a year, and by newer I mean maybe 80's- 90's or even early 2000's.

I completely understand the market is aimed at 40 years old and up, but as what happens if you forget the younger group, say my age group of the 30 year olds, or even a little younger, if they dont gives us kits that we can relate to and what to build , whats going to keep us interested in buying there kits. would you think the manufactures would want to try and keeps around so when we are in the target age range, we will still be buying there kits?

Just a thought, and dont think I have anything against the kit manufactures for what they are releasing , I dont, I just can not relate to half of whats being produced or reissued, so there for I will not spend my money on those kits. I buy kits of cars that I have an interest or can relate to, plain an simple.

All i am saying if the kit manufacturers what to be around when their target demo is no longer buying kits, they should want to keep the younger modelers interested at the same time.

And yes I want more trucks kits as well

I was just curious what modern cars you want to see that are not available. I see a lot of comments about how all the new kits are of old cars but when I look I see a pretty nice range of modern cars available from the environmentally friendly mini cras and hybrids to modern muscle cars.

Understand about the Japanese kits, but like it or not I think the fact they cover so many Japanese subjects so well (even if many are curbside) that I doubt you will see much from the US kit makers. I have always found the Japanese habit of ultra detail except for including an engine odd, and I'm not even one to detail the motor much of the time.

I think the US kit makers completely botched their "tuner" efforts, and like trucks mistake their half hearted efforts with won't sell. As a result they seem to have given up on most foriegn subjects (except for supercars like Ferraris). I'm not into the tuner thing but even I can figure out they should have been doing those kits like they have done the various hotrods with tons of options and nifty parts. I wonder how people think the ever popular '32 Ford kits would have done if sold as curbsides with no or very limited options. The tuner guys are into customization as much as the hotrod guys, but tooling up some jumbo size speakers in an older tool import kit does not make it a tuner. Where is Revell's tuner version of the '29 Ford truck? Those kits have so many optional parts I can build a stock truck and have so many spare parts left over that it looks like a complete kit in the box.

I agree with you that failure to bring in younger builders may come back to haunt them in 15-20 years. On the other hand I have seen some suggestion that more people are getting into modeling for the first time in their 30s and 40s as they have disposible income and are looking for a hobby, so maybe they will do ok.

Personally, I think the 70s-80s era was a time of poor auto craftsmanship on a global basis. Audi nearly died as a brand from cars that slipped into gear from neutral, rustbuckets were everywhere, Peugeot and Fiat quality problems caused their removal from the US market along with other brands, and even Rolls-Royces from the 70s typically bring under $30,000 today while older and newer models command much higher prices. Just my $2 worth (that's 2¢ adjusted for inflation).

Now I don't think that is completely fair, the 70s brought us the Pacer, Gremlin, Pinto and Vega... wait what was I saying.

No but really there are some notable exceptions, largely non-US. Eh British and French cars have been notably poor quality long before the 70s, many collectors of those cars hold the fact they own a car that may or may not start as a badge of honor. I remember a Herb Caen column from the 80s lamenting the fact his new Jaguar was trouble free taking all of the adventure out of owning a British sports car.

On the better side of things, in my opinion the 1970s Porsche 911 was the peak of that cars styling. It left behind the sportified VW look, and had a more elegant look than the later cars with the big spoilers and such. The 70s also brought the Lotus Esprit which again in my opinion was one of the better looking Lotus cars (although I do like the looks of the Elise too), very super car looking but without so much of the "rich dude with a midlife crisis" look like some others. Mercedes had a very elegant sport coupe in the SL350.

On the more mundane side, the Japanese makers owned the 70s and 80s, with good economical cars and Toyota's Hilux introduced in the late 60s has set the standard for compact trucks ever since. Toyota and Datsun did manage to include some style too with the 240Z, 510, Celica, and Supra.

I do agree that tthe 70s and 80s were not a high point in US auto manufacturing, the Delorean and Pontiac Fiero probably being the high points except for the mid 80s introduction of the restyled Corvette, and Pontiac Firebird / Trans-am that maintained a little bit of the 60s through the 70s.

[Brett Barrow]

Try speaking for yourself and not the rest of the class, please. Just because 'we' invented the hot rod and muscle car doesn't make 'us' experts on what makes a car cool.

Speaking as someone who is employed inside of the hobby industry and earns a living selling this stuff, I'm trying to bring a little perspective into the discussion. Would mid-late 70's American cars make viable model kit subjects? No. Were they viable model kit subjects in the mid-to-late 70's? No. Would investing hundreds of thousands of dollars tooling-up all new kits of these cars at a time when the industry is just starting to find itself in this new marketplace suddenly open up some giant untapped market and bring in new modelers? No. An out-of-business model company isn't going to do anyone any good. So a handful of people think they're cool because of some personal connection, great, good for them, go scratchbuild one Juha Airio style or convince a resin guy to make it. Do I need to bring up what a colossal failure the Trumpeter 78 Monte Carlo was? And I'm not talking just about design or execution or price because it was a colossal failure when compared to the other Trumpeter kits that also suffered from the same issues.

Same thing goes for late-model pickups, it's just not in the cards. They tried kits of those when they had all the factors working in their favor and they were unsuccessful. Here's the way it is - modelers will say they want all kinds of things, but when it comes time to lay the money on the barrel and pony up for these kits they get real tight all of the sudden. The industry has tried the "build what you drive/drove" approach in the past, when there was a much more favorable market and it failed then. A core group - Classics/Kustoms, Hot Rods, and Muscle Cars - of enthusiasts has stuck with American car modeling through the rough times, and that's what the companies are going to focus on, because that's what's going to pay the bills and keep the lights on.