Scale auto renaissance?

[sobpinstriping]

A core group - Classics/Kustoms, Hot Rods, and Muscle Cars - of enthusiasts has stuck with American car modeling through the rough times, and that's what the companies are going to focus on, because that's what's going to pay the bills and keep the lights on.

That is a excellent point;

the bartender is going to server the barfly before the tourist because the barfly will be back tomorrow and the day after and the day after.... so they know they have a steady market for older cars because they have sold well for so many years and they figure they don't want to lose the core builders so they put out more new or re issues of subjects they know will sell for sure.

I'am very happy with the amount of new kits coming out, now if they would put out the tweedy pie like they said they were. Does anyone know what happened to that?

[Danno]

So, all you starving modern pickemup phans ... how many Tahoes or Dodge Rams or Silverados or Escalades did you actually buy, stock up on? How many did you build to display at shows, publish online, or sneak into magazine coverage so as to convince the kit manufacturers of the viability of modern pickemup kits? Why are those kits considered underachieving dogs by the manufacturing/distributing/retail side of the hobby industry?

And, for all the 'why won't they make new car kits' afficiandos out there ... which stunning example of automotive perfection do you want kitted? A Forchevbuick200300? Or a Toyosubahyunkiazdahon? Or a Mercedifinitiexus?

On second thought, it might actually make sense: They could mold up one body, provide almost imperceptibly different wheels, and decal sheets with the slightly different composite headlamp patterns and grille logos in order to market a half-dozen or more kits as "different" modern cars!

And, hobby paint suppliers would only have to stock white, black, grey, and silver.

3D printers? Sure. The printer will cost $100 but the material cartridges will cost about $300 apiece, will have too little raw material to finish a job, and will always run out late at night when Staples is closed!

Actually, gang, I don't think the times are so bad! The manufacturers are pumping out more great products than I can afford to buy in the quantities I want, and I buy more new kits than I'll be able to build in my lifetime. Anything they don't manufacture just helps me out a little bit in trying to keep up with them!

[Harry P.]

They could mold up one body, provide almost imperceptibly different wheels, and decal sheets with the slightly different composite headlamp patterns and grille logos in order to market a half-dozen or more kits as "different" modern cars!

Isn't that NASCAR'S business model???

[Chuck Most]

Brett, I do agree with 90% of what you are saying, but you are completely overlooking another aspect- REISSUES! I don't expect to see tons of new tool stuff. The Trumpeter Monte Carlo is a moot point, I mean, really, can Trumpeter to anything automotive right? But the MPC Monte Carlo has been back, and from where I sit, it's doing pretty well. Granted, much of that might have to do with the inclusion of the Honda Chopper, but hey- that Honda Chopper itself is a Seventies vehicle. And of course Round 2 is bringing back the Gremlin kit- would they be doing that if there were no interest? One of the kits IMC is bringing back is the JoHan Cutlass- can you get any more '1970's' in terms of subject matter than an Oldsmobile Cutlass? Wait- you can- custom vans- those are slated to make a comeback.

And these kits that are coming back weren't the only vehicles kitted during the polyester decade- they're just the ones that are known to have usable tooling, or tooling that was close enough to be viable with some freshening. I'm sure there are more out there than just what I've listed, and the fact that a kit of fill-in-the-blank already exists precludes the need to tool up an all new kit. Maybe I'm off base, but even if a kit needed some parts completely redone it might still be workable to reissue it. I know that tooling is expensive, but it's cheaper today that it was in the past relatively speaking. And with reissued kits, we're talking about tooling that was bought and paid for when Carter was still in the white house. Ten, twenty grand to freshen something is still better than ten times that amount for an all new tool. Would people buy new tool kits of this era? That would depend on the subject. But the fact '70's kits are being reissued at all is pretty telling, if you ask me.

[Chuck Most]

Isn't that NASCAR'S business model???

Yeah, but all the decal sheets you'd need to buy would kill you...

[Rob Hall]

I'd definitely like to see more modern cars kitted. I was born in '70, grew up in the '70s-80s...have loads of kits of '60s-70s subjects that I like...the '50s and older are too far before my time to be of much interest to me..have kits of some cars from before the '60s, but it's not my main area of interest.

Reissues of '70s-80s subjects are welcome by me, that was the era I started building kits (1978, to be exact). Alas, many of the interesting cars of the late '70s were never kitted (like the '77-79 Caprice, '76-77 Cutlass Supreme, etc).

Lots of modern subjects would be great in 1:25th or 1:24th scale beyond the usual Camaro/Corvette/Mustang/Challenger subjects---I'd like to see the new Charger and Chrysler 300, Ram truck, Ford Raptor, Cadillac CTS (esp. the V-series coupe or wagon), the new '12 Porsche 911, other current Porsches like the Boxster Spyder, GTS or Turbo, the Audi A4/S4 and A5/S5, A8, various Mercedes sedans and coupes (esp. the AMG versions), the current BMW Z4, M3, M5, etc. There are lots of interesting modern subjects that could be kitted.

I'd like to have kits of modern SUVs also...the current Grand Cherokee, Wrangler, Tahoe or Yukon, as well as the Cayenne, Escalade, etc would be interesting in kit form.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Rob Hall

[Casey]

Brett, I do agree with 90% of what you are saying, but you are completely overlooking another aspect- REISSUES! *snip* One of the kits IMC is bringing back is the JoHan Cutlass- can you get any more '1970's' in terms of subject matter than an Oldsmobile Cutlass?

I wouldn't be so sure that IMC is choosing that kit based on what will sell. It sounds more like they are choosing tools which are either complete or in good shape, and it doesn't sound like there's a huge pool of ex-JoHan kits to choose from. It sounds a lot like what X-El did- invest little to nothing in new tooling and use up what's left to make back some money.

[Harry P.]

I wouldn't be so sure that IMC is choosing that kit based on what will sell. It sounds more like they are choosing tools which are either complete or in good shape, and it doesn't sound like there's a huge pool of ex-JoHan kits to choose from. It sounds a lot like what X-El did- invest little to nothing in new tooling and use up what's left to make back some money.

That's exactly right. When it comes to re-issuing ex-Johan kits, there's not a whole lot to choose from. You have a choice of just a handful of possibilities. I'd guess the Olds is being reissued not necessarily because it meets some sort of incredibly pent-up demand... but more like, hey, this is one we happen to have that we actually can reissue.

[Chuck Most]

So, all you starving modern pickemup phans ... how many Tahoes or Dodge Rams or Silverados or Escalades did you actually buy, stock up on? How many did you build to display at shows, publish online, or sneak into magazine coverage so as to convince the kit manufacturers of the viability of modern pickemup kits? Why are those kits considered underachieving dogs by the manufacturing/distributing/retail side of the hobby industry?

I bought zero Tahoes- they're yuppiewagons. Besides, that's an SUV, not a pickup. I do have a few of the Revell Expeditions, though.

Dodge Rams? Which one? The Revell VTS? Or the Ertl Snap kits of the 2500 and 3500. Five of the VTS, ten of the 2500, and about fifteen of the 3500, if ya must know.

I've got nearly 30 of the AMT '97 style F-150s in various stages of 'not done yet', and a dozen Revell Lightnings. Lindberg F-150's? Twelve of those at the moment. Easily as many of the Monogram F-250, and I buy EVERY Monogram F-350 that comes near me. AMT Chevy C-series pickups? I've got all of them except the promos. Sorry- not too many of the AMT Rangers or GM S-trucks, but that's mostly because the Rangers are getting tougher to track down, and I don't care for the S 10s much. And don't get me started on all the AMT '92-'95 F-150s.

If there were any kits of modern pickups (SVT Raptor, Ford Super Duty F-2 or 350, Ram Power Wagon), I'd have just as many of them laying around as I do now.

I even have a stash of the Maisto diecast F-250 Super Duty kits (1999 vintage) if you're curious.

[Chuck Most]

Okay, Harry and Casey... so just simply churning out a kit because the tooling is workable is a sound business proposition?

[Junkman]

And, for all the 'why won't they make new car kits' afficiandos out there ... which stunning example of automotive perfection do you want kitted? A Forchevbuick200300? Or a Toyosubahyunkiazdahon? Or a Mercedifinitiexus?

The latter two we get from Japan and Germany, thank you very much. Only the American kit industry refuses to release models of newer cars, because the Americans are 'ashamed' of them and want to forget them, I read elsewhere in this forum.

[Chuck Most]

Well, if you like modern Ponycars, you're pretty well covered- at least four versions of the Dodge Challenger, half a dozen Mustangs (even one in large scale, which is weird because all the 'experts' say large scale is dead), and three Camaros- a snap and glue kit of the concept and the upcoming Revell production version. There's also a slew of Vipers, Vettes, and at least one iffy-but-workable Ford GT. Performance cars are still hot in America, trouble is most people still think 'performance' has to mean 'V8 engine, rear drive, two doors'.

[Craig Irwin]

Okay, Harry and Casey... so just simply churning out a kit because the tooling is workable is a sound business proposition?

Yes, look at AMT's reissues from the last few years for proof. "Run what you can".

[Rob Hall]

Yes, look at AMT's reissues from the last few years for proof. "Run what you can".

It will be interesting to see what else IMC can resurrect from Johan tooling. The Okey Spalding incarnation of Johan didn't yield very much...hopefully, IMC will have a better go at it..

[Craig Irwin]

I hope so, Jo-Han had a lot of oddball but interesting subjects that would never warrant a new tool.

[Bernard Kron]

I'd like to raise an aspect of the auto modeling hobby that I think is fairly unique and helps distinguish it from other idioms such as military, airplane and ship building. Since the advent of the 3-in-1 kit more than 50 years ago auto modelers have created models that are not replicas, often using combination of kit bashing and scratch building. I'm certainly one of those auto modelers who has almost never built out-of-the-box and I know that an awful lot of what is discussed on this and many other boards involves something besides replica modeling.

I believe this is important because it drives sales in specific areas and for specific kits. When was the last time you saw a 3-in-1 Ferrari, regardless of vintage, from one of the Japanese companies? Indeed, many kits are engineered to discourage this, or at least render it quite difficult.

So which kits do support the creation of "imaginary" cars? Generally speaking you're talking about hot rods, customs and drag racing subjects. These types of kits drive a lot of "surplus" sales, as enthusiasts buy up multiple copies for their parts and the rich possibilities for build variations they support. I believe this is why you've seen the rise of Round2 and their re-issue driven sales strategy, and why you've seen the dominance of automotive re-issues and complex new-tool 2-in-1 automotive kits from Revell. Just look at the most recent Revell new release brochures, as far back as Fall 2009, and you'll see that far more than half the releases are of these types.

The only other modeling discipline that I can think of that has as much or more of this type of activity is possibly in the fantasy and sci-fi genres.

Anyway, I think this goes some way toward explaining the preponderance of older subjects and re-issues. Just like in the 1:1 world, it is quite difficult to modify and customize a contemporary Aston Martin or Honda without a pretty radical design approach and modeling skill set. The kits don't support it, nor do contemporary trends in the "real" world. I'm not saying it can't be done, or shouldn't be done, just that it isn't done as often or to the degree it was in the past, and that has heavily influenced kit design and release schedules.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Bernard Kron

[Craig Irwin]

We all have subjects we would love to see modeled, but we need to HONESTLY think it through, "Will it sell enough kits to other modelers to pay for the tooling and make a profit?"

[sjordan]

As a Boomer with a number of iconic cars in my mind, and with failing fingers, I would love to see large-scale kits in 1:12 or 1:8 of iconic cars such as the Mercedes Gullwing and the Ferrari 275 GTB. Maybe Trumpeter would do them. The existing, ridiculous Revell kits are on the order of Palmer kits or Barbie cars (which are actually more accurate).

[Junkman]

Sounds about right Chris [can I call you Chris?] BUT ,,

It's the hard core car guys saying that.

Funny thing, "No one likes the '70's cars and wants to forget them" , right? Then why was the mosy popular model I've built in years a '70's car. In fact, Harry even put it on the cover of the magazine.

Modelhaus and a couple others seem to be doing well eith thier '70's Fords. Even the wagon version which back at the time NO ONE my age would be caught dead in. [i'm 47 now]

Look at all the posts in the thread about AMT reissuing the Gremlin, a particularly despised peice of machinery when I was of age to start driving. ,, OR the van reissue thread I started for that matter. In the '80's and '90's the only people who drove a custom van like that was suspected of all manner of underhanded behavior. No one would want anything like that and would rather forget they existed 10 or 15 years ago ,,, BUT ,,

Times change and so do tastes. How popular is Revell's '66 Chevelle wagon ?? We wouldn't be caught dead in one in the '80's ,, the height of the "great muscle car revival". Back then a wagon was just a parts car for the hardtop we really wanted.

What I'm trying to say it it's al relative. Older guys hate anything with a build date after 1972. Younger guys don't have much intrest in 50's and '60's cars. ,, or about as much as I would in a 1948 Nash 4dr sedan. They don't have anything to relate to in them.

And for all the grumping and moaning about how slow the '70/'80's cars were and how fast they rusted out and how crappy they were ,, we're not talking about them, we're talking about MODEL CARS. Yea, a '78 Impala with a 305 wasn't all that fast ,, probably almost as slow as a '68 with a 307 but ya know what? I'd still love to have a model of a '78 Impala. There's LOADS of things I could do with one. '77 G/P?, shure ,, '81 Malibu? You bet. Would I want to build a bone stock '80's Ford Fairmont? Not likely but how many out there wouldn't love to have a model of a early '80's Fairmont to build a drag car or pro street/touring machine?

Yea, I think it's all a matter of perspective ,, and how open-minded and creative you can be with the subject. Some see useless hunks of rusted junkj while others see possibilitys. Always been that way and always will be.

We are the same age, so it figures...

Btw. I had a 78 Caprice with a 350-4bbl/350 and a 2.41 export/police rear axle. The car was anything but slow, ask a few Mercedes 560SEL drivers having been blitzed by it on German Autobahns throughout the Nineties. The italianesque design of the late Seventies Impala/Caprice has aged extremely well and a model would have great potential for lowrider, donk, euronizer and police car chappies.

[Chuck Most]

Yes, look at AMT's reissues from the last few years for proof. "Run what you can".

You left 'into the ground' on that last sentence. RC2 actually killed off model kit production before Round 2 took over- could market oversaturation have had anything to do with that? I'd have to think it played a role. Why would a store buy more, say, '67 GTO kits when they already had a shelf full of the last run that weren't sold?

Though in the case of the IMC stuff, it might work, simply because they've been out of production for so long (for the most part) there's pent up demand from modelers who don't want to pay collector bucks to land one. That and I'm sure that quite a few guys (and gals) are being introduced to them for the first time- I showed the '59 Rambler thread to a local modeler who didn't even know the kit existed until then- he's up for a couple of them now.

[Casey]

Okay, Harry and Casey... so just simply churning out a kit because the tooling is workable is a sound business proposition?

IN IMC's case, yes. We've all heard about how JoHan employees took tooling inserts home with them when they weren't being paid by JoHan, so I don't think it's a secret that many (I don't know exactly how many) of JoHan's kits will probably never be seen again, due to missing or damaged tooling. Just look at what X-El, Testors, and now IMC released or plan to release and it's clear there are probably less than a dozen useable tools from what was formerly JoHan. I think Steve G even mentioned this fact in his post under the New Kit Reviews IMC topic.

Eventually, IMC will run out of tooling which needs little to know work/money invested to clean them up, and each kit will require more money up front to reissue, but only people who have seen and inspected to tooling know for sure, so yes, I'm speculating. You mentioned yourself how poor the molded parts in the last re-issue of the '69 SC/Rambler were, and considering JoHan hadn't tooled up any new kits since the late '70s (I think one of the Caddy kits was the last one?), they were wearing out tooling for twenty years, with no hope of either replacing them with new tooling, nor any chance of creating enough money to refresh the worn tooling.

I haven't been thrilled that Round2 is merely doing what JoHan did for the last twenty years of their existence, but they seem to be doing more than just using, based on what I've seen on their 'site. I see tooling be repaired, additional parts being added, and kits including extra parts and bonus materials, but if they never tool up any new kits how long will each of us be satisfied when the AMTronic is reissued for the third time in 2020?

[Chuck Most]

On the other hand... there was seemingly pent-up demand for the Beverly Hillbillies Olds kit, and look at how that reissue tanked. Really, who knows what could happen?

[Aaronw]

On the other hand... there was seemingly pent-up demand for the Beverly Hillbillies Olds kit, and look at how that reissue tanked. Really, who knows what could happen?

Hey I did my part, I bought 4 or 5 of them. There is a neat old truck burried under all the crud.

[Darin Bastedo]

On the other hand... there was seemingly pent-up demand for the Beverly Hillbillies Olds kit, and look at how that reissue tanked. Really, who knows what could happen?

You see that is what happens when the model companies listen to us. We are are not the core of their business. For instance there are maybe two or three model builders from my town who visit the message boards, yet some how models keep jumping off the shelves at the hobby lobby. When I meet fellow modelers in the stores, very few of them know about the magazines, or the forums at all. Most just like to build an occasional model for relaxation, and don't enter or even care about contests or clubs. These are the same guys who couldn't tell you which 57 chevy kit is better proportioned and often buy one over the other because "it has more chrome parts"

I had someone return an AMT 67 Impala to my store because they opened it up and realised that it had no optional hot rod parts. They didn't care that it was one of the most detailed and accurate Impala kits thus far, they only cared that it didn't offer custom rims. These are the same people who wouldn't even think of writing revell with a wish list, and have no idea of what has been produced in the past. To the same extent, many model buyers are upset that there is no way of telling how old a model kit's tooling is. They open the box after having built a modern John Mueller designed kit. and fing a crude AMT 62 ranchero with a promo chassis, wire axles and a big block chevy under the hood and feel robbed.

So when you see revell someday release another kit that AMT has been producing for decades, and ask why, it's because the masses don't want nearly 50 year old kits based on an old promo. They want ones with similar quality to the newer kits on the market.

[Brett Barrow]

There's been some good points made in this thread, but I think there's one thing that needs to be said. You have to, at one point, separate the hobbyist part of your brain from the businessman part of your brain. It's something I, and the other folks who work in the hobby industry, have to do on a daily basis. Would I personally go absolutely ape over a 1909 American Underslung, a 29 duPont, or a 1956 Facel Vega? Sure I would, but would I ever in a million years go up to someone from a mainstream plastic model kit company and suggest that they do one of these? No way. I still hold out hope for a new-tool Cobra Daytona Coupe and 289 Cobras, but that's looking more and more like a pipe dream now...

So, next time I'm in a product development meeting, I'll bring up subjects like the '73 Dodge Monaco, '73 Pontiac LeMans, '71 Cadillac, '77 Caprice, '77 Continental Town Car, late-model pickup trucks, etc... I promise. But what do you want to bet I wouldn't be asked to take a "random" drug test the next day?