Indy 500 today... does anyone care?

[Lunajammer]

...most of the drivers I've never heard of and have no idea who they are or where they're from.

Ever heard of Danica Patrick? My point is, back in the "the day" we had three networks and only a handful of races aired on TV... the big ones. The classic names became household words because they were put out there like superstars. Today's names are lost in the din of internet white noise and 70 basic cable channels and however many premium channels showing a hundred races across every league. Unless there is something marketable about a name that's bigger than the sport itself, you won't know the names at all unless you effort to follow them. They don't become part of the American vernacular unless there's something about them that, for better or worse, raises the sport to front page headlines. Essentially it was easier to be a known name back then.

BTW Harry, almost everybody I know thinks they represent "average guy" sensibilities regardless of how conservative or downright cockeyed their agendas are. I was mostly with you until you said that. P.S. who's Albert Pujols?

Edited May 29, 2012 by Lunajammer

[Fat Brian]

On a side note, does it throw anyone else that Dario Franchitti has a Scottish accent? I don't watch the Indy series enough for that to stay current in my mind and it gets me every time.

[Harry P.]

P.S. who's Albert Pujols?

Baseball player.

[Joe Handley]

Baseball player.

Oh, That who he is?! Unless it's the Sox, I could care less about baseball........let me amend that, unless it's the Sox, Bears, Bulls, Blackhawks, or Iowas State University, I could care less about sports that don't have the word motor in it.

[mikemodeler]

Oh, That who he is?! Unless it's the Sox, I could care less about baseball........let me amend that, unless it's the Sox, Bears, Bulls, Blackhawks, or Iowas State University, I could care less about sports that don't have the word motor in it.

Joe, if you were a Cubs fan (like most real Chicagoans!) you would recognize the name Albert Pujols as he WAS on the St. Louis Cardinals and routinely hit homeruns at that historic landmark at Clark & Addison on the Northside of Chicago.

[Art Anderson]

I think that's exactly it. The Indy 500 used to have that vibe as a uniquely American race. Today it's just one in a whole series of international races. Maybe that loss of "uniqueness" is why some people just began to tune out. And of course the ridiculous breakup into two pieces didn't help. (I know they're all back together again and making nice, but the split couldn't have been a good thing).

Uh, Harry, it might surprise you to know that at least into the early 1990's, the official name of the Indy 500 was "The International 500 Mile Sweepstakes", as it had been since that first race in 1911.

It might also surprise you to learn that in the first decade of the 500 (taking out 1917 and 1918, when the race was called off due to World War I) , 5 of the 8 race winners were American citizens (although Ralph DePalma was an Italian Immigrant, naturalized citizen), and three were foreign drivers (Jules Goux (France, 1913), Rene' Thomas (France, 1914) and Dario Resta (Italian, 1916). Of the first 8 winning cars, the 1911 winner was the Marmon Wasp (imported from Indianapols!), 1912 National (also Imported from Indianapolis), 1913 Peugeot (France), 1914 DeLage (France), 1915 Mercedes (Germany), 1916 DeLage (France), 1919 Premier (built in Indianapolis as a direct copy of the 1916 DeLage), 1920 Monroe, built by Frontenac, a company started by Swiss immigrant Louis Chevrolet, and the 1921 Frontenac (also designed and built by Louis Chevrolet).

The 1920's saw numerous entries from Europe as well, DeLage made several appearances, as did at least one Bugatti, even an Alfa Romeo or two--but due to the decline of oval tracks in Europe (there were of course, Montlhery in France, Brooklands in the UK, Avus in Germany, Monza in Itaiy for example); and as a result, very few European entries were capable of the sustained high speeds of the likes of Millers and Duesenbergs (Oh, did I mention that Fred Duesenberg was an immigrant from Germany--his younger brother and partner, August, was born in Iowa?). One notable British driver drove at Indianapolis in a highly modified Model T Ford hopped up with a Frontenac 16-valve DOHC head (the racing cylinder head included in the AMT 1927 Model T Touring Car kit, BTW)--one Alfred Moss, whose son Sterling gained worldwide fame in Formula 1 in the late 50's/early 60's.

Of course, the stock block formula introduced at Indianapolis for 1930 very much precluded any foreign entries, until 1935 when the 4.5 liter engine formula began. By 1937, Alfa Romeo was back, and in 1938 came Maserati--in 1939 and 1940, the 400 was won by a Maserati 8CTF driven by racing legend Wilbur Shaw, who also lead much of the 1941 race before his right rear wire wheel collapsed in the 4th turn.

Beginning in 1946, there were several foreign cars entered, notably a 1939 Mercedes-Benz W163 GP car by Don Lee Enterprises out of Los Angeles. Prewar World Grand Prix Champion Rudolph Carachiola practiced at Indianapolis in 1946, having been recruited by one Anton "Tony" Hulman Jr., then the owner of the Speedway. Hulman also worked at recruiting foreign entries through the 1950's, along with drivers such as Alberto Ascari and Guiseppi Farina, and Juan Manuel Fangio from Argentina. Hulman, through USAC also promoted the idea of the "Race Of Two Worlds" on the high banked oval at Monza in 1957-58 hoping to interest GP teams in coming to Indianapolis. Additionally, from 1937 to the late 1950's, Indianapolis also was able to award World Driver's Championship points.

The "rear engine revolution" was started by non other than British constructor John Cooper, who built up a special version of his 1960-61 Cooper Climax F1 car, which was driven by Australia's Jack Brabham (how many are aware that Jack Brabham also cut his racing teeth driving Kurtis Midgets in a Midget racing series in Australia and New Zealand?).

So, it should come as no surprise that come 1965, a foreign driver running a foreign car (albeit with Dearborn Ford V8 power) won at Indianapolis--by then, Europe and the UK had recovered from 2 devastating World Wars in 31 years time, so a return from across the Atlantic was only a matter of time.

And that sort of started with Team Lotus in 1963, gathered serious momentum by 1966, when Lotus was joined by Lola Cars (Team Mecom), with a couple of BRP's and the MG Liquid Suspension Specials in 1964-65.

As for Indy no longer being the "All American Race", well that was very much ended when the 24 team owners who formed CART (and pretty much, throughout its history, CART was limited to just 24 teams, each team owner being a member of the CART Board of Directors--although for Indianapolis, several CART teams brought multiple entries. But more importantly, CART owners, once the American "racing legends", notably "Lone Star JR" Johnny Rutherford, Gordon Johncock and several others passed their prime, CART teams tended to totally overlook American drivers, opting instead for drivers coming out of South America, Italy, the UK, France, Canada, The Netherlands, Australia, even Norway. By 1990, it was pretty hard to find a "good old American name" on the CART driver's list.

So, Indianapolis has never been, by purpose, simply an All American Race, no sir. It's almost always had an international flavor, as long as wars and depressions never got in the way.

Art

[rmvw guy]

Thanks for clearing that up Art, and the History lesson.

[kitbash1]

Part of that is the demographics of the forum...lots of NASCAR and drag racing fans, few open wheel fans.

That might be true, but there are others here that follow ALMS and other endurence racing series as well as Vintage, Trans-Am, Moto GP and F1. Indy isn't what it use to be since the split in 96.

[Art Anderson]

That might be true, but there are others here that follow ALMS and other endurence racing series as well as Vintage, Trans-Am, Moto GP and F1. Indy isn't what it use to be since the split in 96.

Actually, the "split" happened in 1979, NOT 1996.

Art

[Greg Myers]

Section C, a bit north of the pagoda & start/finish line...near the end of the pit lane. Clear views of turn 4 and the main straight. Also made a trip to the legendary 'Mug & Bun' for the root beer.

Speaking of seats, did anyone notice all the empty seats between turns three and four ?

[Rob Hall]

Speaking of seats, did anyone notice all the empty seats between turns three and four ?

Yes, noticed those. It was hot, humid and sunny, definitely wouldn't want to be out there in the open.

[Greg Myers]

Aww, come on. I did F-1 in Phoenix three years in a row, 100+ degrees in July, in the '90's

[Rob Hall]

Aww, come on. I did F-1 in Phoenix three years in a row, 100+ degrees in July, in the '90's

Too warm for me. I sat out in the open at Indy last year and in the past, I prefer being under the overhang in the shade. The humidity+sun is killer..

Edited May 30, 2012 by Rob Hall

[Greg Myers]

Ok, we were in the parking garage across from the pits

[kitbash1]

Actually, the "split" happened in 1979, NOT 1996.

Art

Yes the first Split was in 1979 between USAC and CART. The second Split was between Tony George and CART when Tony thought he could put on a better show then CART could. But as we later found out, all he was good at was pi**ing away his familys money.

[Harry P.]

As for Indy no longer being the "All American Race", well that was very much ended when the 24 team owners who formed CART (and pretty much, throughout its history, CART was limited to just 24 teams, each team owner being a member of the CART Board of Directors--although for Indianapolis, several CART teams brought multiple entries. But more importantly, CART owners, once the American "racing legends", notably "Lone Star JR" Johnny Rutherford, Gordon Johncock and several others passed their prime, CART teams tended to totally overlook American drivers, opting instead for drivers coming out of South America, Italy, the UK, France, Canada, The Netherlands, Australia, even Norway. By 1990, it was pretty hard to find a "good old American name" on the CART driver's list.

That's exactly my point!

While it's technically true that Indy always has had its share of foreign drivers, many people equated Indy with American racing, not international racing, especially in the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. Guys like you mentioned, plus of course the Foyts, Unsers and Andrettis, etc. Indy was as all-American as apple pie (at least, with the vast majority of drivers being American in that era, it felt that way). But that's no longer the case.

Again, I'm not suggesting that the dominance of foreign drivers in Indy today is necessarily a bad thing, but it does make the Indy 500 something a bit different than it had traditionally been, in the eyes of many people. Not all, of course... but many. Myself included.

[mrindy77]

My first 500 was in 1977, I was 10 years old. I have not missed one since. My dad's first race was 1962..he says this will be his last year. My grampa's first race was 1931...he stopped going in 1978. We have had the same seats for nearly 30 years. I have witnessed many changes at the Brickyard. Some I like, some I have not. But it is still Indy. It holds a very special place in my heart and it is at this time of year I start thinking about the annual mecca to the "greatest spectale in motorsports". I have been fortunate to see many of the greatest Indy car drivers perform their craft. Foyt, Unsers, Rutherford, Mears and they have left long lasting great memories. My 'heroes' no longer race but there are new champions that my kids enjoy to watch and cheer for. I can't think of anything more exciting than the start of the race. Until you actually see it 'live' you can not get a sense of what it is like. It's not for everybody but I enjoy race, the sights, sounds, smells, technology, strategy, etc. You cannot see the entire track from your seats. We see turn 4, the straight, pits and turn 1...they do have big screen TV's now so you can view action on the backstretch. The 'split' never really bothered me...there was still a race just a different cast of characters. Some say it has lost its luster...it may have for some but not for me.

[wisdonm]

The Indy 500 lost it's mystic appeal when it went showroom stock racing. I understand the cost issues, but that is the truth. They killed individuality from the cars and especially the owners and mechanics. Practices and qualifying used to be packed with fans eager to see if the cars with the new ideas could beat the old ideas. Now all you might get to see are new paint jobs and the fans have voted by not showing up.

[dragin70s]

I will jump in on this revived topic. As a child, the "Indy 500" was special in my family. I guess my father was the lead in that, but from 1970 until the late '80s we a child and then I as an adult never missed the race on television. Living in Indianapolis in 1970, we attended the race that year. We actually attended Time Trials once or twice and were down at the pits on one day. We were in the infield on turn four, me on my Father's shoulders much of the race, as I was six. I still have the memorabilia from that day, including a set of four art prints of Unser, Andretti, Donohue, and Foyt I believe. I have some snapshots much like yours "mrIndy77", and everything associated with that day is special. Like many, after the "split" it just didn't seem the same to me, and I stopped following it as religiously. I still hope to make the pilgrimage back to Indy someday, to experience it again even its current form, and visit museum especially. In the meantime, I will try to get to work on my resin 1970 Colt Unser Johnny Lightning Special 1/25 kit, Under's winner from that year.

[johnbuzzed]

I can't remember the last time I watched the Indy 500. Back in the '90's, possibly. I don't want to see it disappear, but I really no longer give a ratz @$$ about that race.

[Chuck Doan]

I loved it when I was 13-got to see that Johnny Lightning car in it's garage and on track at the Ontario Motor Speedway. I did enjoy all the different types of cars back in those days. Like Jim Hurtubise and the front engine Mallard. And the Ford and Offy engines (and others). I still watch the Indy cars these days.

[Greg Myers]

Sadly we no longer get to see anything different in most forms of racing, same body's, same engines.

[DirtModeler]

I haven't been that excited about Indycar racing since Greg Moore died.

Indycars are exciting to watch (at least they were back when i saw them). Its much different then NASCAR, in NASCAR it is a game of inches, and passes happen slowly over time. in Indy racing one guy is 20 yards ahead of the other guy.. the next lap the guy is right on his tail, and the next lap he's passed him and is 20 yards ahead..

I was a big Greg Moore fan, and I wasn't able to go to the Marlboro 500 that year in Fontana, California.. my dad went though and saw the wreck that killed him..

I honestly have't really watched Indycars since.

[Bernard Kron]

Motor racing today is the victim of the twin effects of "cost control" and "safety standards". Add to them the introduction of regulations "for the good of the show", and you have a uniformity and artificiality that virtually guarantees spectator boredom. There are no exceptions in this, even F1 being hampered by draconian safety and cost-control regulations, specific powerplant configurations, and arcane aerodynamic and competition rules “for the good of the show”. Indeed the best racing, regardless of discipline, can often be found in the lower ranks where make-do and innovation still dominate. Engines are so complex, sophisticated and expensive to develop, capitalize and build, that sanctioning bodies have been forced to guarantee manufacturers a minimum number of users. Safety standards are so successful in their impact that the design and appearance of cars are often determined greatly by them (along with the tremendous advances in aerodynamics). Most series are based on a single chassis supplier and a narrow range of powerplant options, generally to create some sort of symbolic representation of earlier days of success and notoriety.

Some organizers are quite open about this, like NASCAR which operates a “silhouette” series with standardized bodywork and chassis. It’s hard to go 200 MPH in a front wheel drive 4-cylinder family car, after all. Unfortunately this has made its slow, painful death at the hands of television an inevitability. The Indycar coalition is struggling with competition rule-making and odd aerodynamic appendages to bring back the spirit of an historic past. But that era disappeared a long time ago. Gone is the glory of May; 30 days of testing and development full of crackpot ideas, the romance of the underdog, and the spectacle of the emergence of a champion. Today it’s test and qualify one week, “carburation” and race the next. But what exactly is being “tested”? It's certainly not the standardized chassis and motors the regulations mandate.

Now I’m no fan of death and mayhem on the track. Racing was never a corrida for me. Great champions are not measured by their burn scars, accidents and the brevity of their career, let alone their madness and irresponsibility on the track. But today’s sanctioning bodies are guilty of thinking far too specifically about cost, safety and “the show”. Why did Indycar put the spec chassis out for tender? Why not accept them all (and more) as long as they met the safety tests that have to be passed in any case? Why did F1 mandate specific energy generation ,recuperation and storage technologies along with their “fuel economy” formula (let alone a spec ECU for gosh sake). Why not just give the teams an energy budget for the weekend and let them have at it? And testing bans have been shown to be ineffective in controlling costs as manufacturers and teams spend fortunes on simulators, the “drivers” and engineers to operate them, and CFD and the supercomputers to power it, let alone the attorneys to get around “cost containment” rules. Perhaps it is a technical impossibility to have it all, but it seems as if nobody is even trying, and the ultimate victim of all this is the fan. Last year was the first time in my life I didn’t actually watch the 500. In fact I had to look up the winner just now because I had forgotten who it was… (which does a disservice to Tony Kanaan who finally got the 500 he has merited for so long).

End of rant…

Edited March 28, 2014 by Bernard Kron

[mrindy77]

I like your 'rant'. Intelligent, concise and well thought out.