what's it take? concept to package?

[tbill]

I've often wondered, what kind of cash does it take to produce a model kit? I don't mean a re-hash of a kit from the 60's, but something like the 'new' stuff, like a pro star or a new lone star, and the new 53 foot refer trailer. above and beyond getting permission to use the 'name', you have a ton of time in making the prototype, man hours and man hours to make it 'right', then you gotta hope the public will like it/buy it[add in a bunch of research/test subjects to the mix].

what do ya figure it takes? i'm like everyone else, I want it all, and I want it now [and then I want to complain about how it doesn't meet my expectations].

in real time, what do you figure it takes??

[Thatswhatshesaid]

I've heard it takes $50k to $100k just to get a kit to production. But that info may be wrong and/or outdated.

[charlie8575]

I've heard it takes $50k to $100k just to get a kit to production. But that info may be wrong and/or outdated.

If everything goes to plan, a full-detail 1/25 kit will cost at least that. As a safe bet, figure $45-60k for a mold, depending on the material and complexity of it. You might be able to do the molds for a little less if you use silica aluminium, which is much easier to machine and wear almost as well as steel molds, but are much easier to damage, which is why you don't see them very often.

The rest of it will be product design and development. Licenses, legal fees, package design and other assorted meadow muffins will add about another $10-12K in upfront costs.

Charlie Larkin

[Art Anderson]

Both of you are way too low.

Art

[gtx6970]

Both of you are way too low.

Art

That was my first thought,,but for a reasonably accurate 1/25th scale passenger car kit . And considering the complexity of kits today , I would bet just the tooling is near 250K

If I had to wager a guess, from initial design/develpoment to a final production kit , but I'll wager a guess of between 750K and 1 million ???? but I'm guessing.

Edited October 24, 2013 by gtx6970

[Casey]

I'm going with $350,000-$500,000

[Harry P.]

Does the person whose guess is closest win a prize???

[Art Anderson]

Let's just take a look at what it takes to create an all-new model car kit:

First, it takes extensive research. That means finding (ideally!) an actual example of the real car. From this, extensive photographs will need to be taken, from all angles, all perspectives--it can easily take several hundred photo's to capture every line, every detail, every contour and shape of just the body shell itself. These are not "beauty shots" such as one might find in a magazine article or "coffee table" book (those are pretty, but they do not tell the "complete story". Next, dozens, perhaps in the hundreds, of measurements need to be taken off that real car, simply because photographs alone don't tell the tale on their own either (measuring sticks --such as measuring tapes, carpenter's rules get the call here--generally laid across or along body panels and other details in the photo's) to give information that can be taken back to the design "studio". In addition, parts of the car that are going to be depicted in the model kit have to be found, and the same information as derived from the body shell need either to be found, or at least good pictures located, to do the very same thing as with the model. To understand how complicated this can get, just think of all the parts it takes to make up any car. One can develop a considerable "library" of information, of course--shop manuals, factory drawings, even junkyard pictures. This all takes time to do, of course, and may well involve traveling some distance to find the actual example(s).

An exploded drawing of the proposed model car kit has to be made--otherwise, just how is anyone going to figure out just how all the parts of the model car in question going to "relate" to each other (assembly!). That takes someone and equipment (be that a draftsman's table or modern hi-tech stuff) with an understanding of how a model car kit needs to go together. Along this line, bear in mind that of course, a 1/25 scale model car kit meant for mass production and sale can't really have more than say, 100-120 parts if it's going to be saleable (and buildable!) by a large number of model builders--so subassemblies come into play (consider the thousands of individual parts and pieces it takes to assemble a real car!).

Finally, drawings (either done by the human hand and eye in the old, time-honored way of drafting, or by modern digital computer aided desigh--CAD) have to be made, From this step, each and every part that will be tooled for the model kit have to be "mocked up" as they will be molded, and representing exactly how each part assembles to the rest (will Part 1 fit properly to Part 2 to result in Part 3?). Along the way in this, everything, each and every part, has to be checked and re-checked by someone knowledgeable about both the real car AND the expected model kit for accuracy, fit and simply "can it be molded that way?". If not, then any offending part will have to be looked at once more and revisions made to correct it.

Once all these mockup parts have been corrected and approved, and it's accepted that they assemble into the expected replica or model kit, cutting the tooling can begin. Once the tooling has been cut (but not "finalized") the tool can be loaded into an injection molder, and molten styrene forced into it. for test shots. These have to be checked out, examples assembled, to determine fit and accuracy--not to mention "did the plastic flow everywhere in the tooling as it has to?". And so the review and analysis of the test shots begins. Errors of fit, mold alignment, plastic flow, and certainly final accuracy have to be found, noted and corrections made. As the model kit goes through this process, corrections will be made, and small details such as scripts, emblems and the like engraved into the tooling--often this is done by hand, by highly skilled toolmakers possessing skills rivaled by the finest of manufacturing jewelers. Once the tooling is approved finally, all the inside surfaces are polished to give that smooth finish we all like to see on the model kit parts we're going to find when we crack open that kit for the very first time.

All this has to happen, no matter whether it's an old AMT kit from the 1960's, or something brand new from today some 50 years later. It doesn't matter if the model kit was done by once time-honored hand-craftsmanship, or through the use of high-powered computers, laser scanning, and computer aided machining, nor whether the steel tooling is cut with old-fashioned rotary milling cutters or modern "electro-discharge machining"--it all has to happen. Sure, modern, high-tech methods change the skills needed, even reduce the costs and certainly can shorten the time frame--but all the steps pretty much have to happen today, just as they did 50 years ago.

Art

[Rob Hall]

One would think that 3D scanning would reduce some of the need for extensive photographs...

Edited October 24, 2013 by Rob Hall

[Ace-Garageguy]

I think Casey's numbers are pretty realistic, and Art's absolutely spot-on about the steps necessary and the complexity in bringing a kit to market. Revell's Micky Thompson Challenger One, released in the early 1960s was reputed to have cost between $30k and $50k back then. This tallies pretty well with the value of today's dollar, and Casey's ballpark figures.

A fair amount of highly-skilled human labor can be sidestepped using 3D scanning to get dimensions, etc., and using CAD and rapid-prototyping (3D printing) to produce "test-shots" BEFORE molds are completed (I'm pretty sure at least Moebius already does this), and CNC-driven machining to actually cut the steel molds. Still, though the hands-on old-school labor is reduced, the need for highly-skilled scan interpreters, tool designers, and CAD / CAM programmers / operators is a significant cost.

Though I've NEVER been involved in the model-car industry specifically, I HAVE been extensively involved with product development for production, including things that ended up being injection-molded styrene. It's all the same animal, just with different colors of spots.

[Art Anderson]

One would think that 3D scanning would reduce some of the need for extensive photographs...

Robert, trust me, it does not. Technology has made the job of creating tooling mockups (masters, if you will) much easier, much quicker, but still it takes the human eye to judge those parts, and it takes all the photographic "evidence" to evaluate whether or not the scanner, the computers, AND those who operate them, did really capture the look of the real thing, and from all angles. A read of these forums should show that while probably every model car kit tooled in say, the last 10 years or so resulted from laser scanning etc., there is lots of room for criticism when the product hits the shelves, and modelers get to fondle the kit parts, and see them for their own eyes.

Remember the first rule of computer technology: "GIGO".

Art

[Brett Barrow]

A baseline price of $250,000 was the figure that always got tossed around when I started in the business, and that was over 10 years ago, so I'd say it's closer to $350,000 today.

And it's around a two-year process to get a kit from concept to store shelves. Most companies don't announce a new kit until it's well underway. I know of one new series of kits that tooling began back in January that still haven't been announced (but I think the first one will be real soon...).

[Tom Geiger]

Hey Art! I thought the process was more of elves, fairy dust and shrink machines!

Actually folks he's absolutely spot on. And he didn't even get to the part of instruction sheet development, decal sheets and kit box design. Also a kit is being designed against a budget that is tied to the retail price of a unit. That determines things like how many extra tires etc that they can include in the box.

[sjordan2]

When you stop to think that a company like Sony will spend up to $20 million to offer a new video game, model kit development at over $100,000 is not as expensive as it looks for your personal entertainment. But it's a lot more expensive than you might expect. Example:

"Nintendo's own Reggie Fils-Aime states developing games for the Nintendo DS is cheap, costing only a few hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop and only needing to sell 100k units to make a profit. Wii games require about $5-10 million in the average case, including marketing costs. He asserts PS3 and X360 games need much more resources, from $20 million up to a staggering $50 million with sales of 1.3 to 1.5 million units to make money on them.[8]

Ubisoft boss Yves Guillemot has predicted game budgets will rise to an average of USD 60 million in the future. Games for Xbox 360 and PS3 cost between USD 20 million and USD 30 million to make."

I only bring this up because it's amazing to see how the cost of making stuff for our interests is much more expensive than we might have imagined.

Edited October 24, 2013 by sjordan2

[Art Anderson]

A baseline price of $250,000 was the figure that always got tossed around when I started in the business, and that was over 10 years ago, so I'd say it's closer to $350,000 today.

And it's around a two-year process to get a kit from concept to store shelves. Most companies don't announce a new kit until it's well underway. I know of one new series of kits that tooling began back in January that still haven't been announced (but I think the first one will be real soon...).

Brett,

It can take, sometimes, 3 or more years from the point that someone decides "Let's develop this "_______" as a model kit, to the final, finished model kit headed for store shelves.

Art

[Austin T]

Ubisoft boss Yves Guillemot has predicted game budgets will rise to an average of USD 60 million in the future. Games for Xbox 360 and PS3 cost between USD 20 million and USD 30 million to make.".

Rockstar spend around 250-275 million on Grand theft Auto Five and made that all back within the first week of sales, granted though it is certainly one of the most hyped games ever.

[Brett Barrow]

Brett,

It can take, sometimes, 3 or more years from the point that someone decides "Let's develop this "_______" as a model kit, to the final, finished model kit headed for store shelves.

Art

As I understand it, Revell's Kurtis Midget kits spent well over 10 years in development, it was originally conceived as a companion to be released together with the '48 Ford woodie.

[Greg Myers]

This is all so unbelievable in so many different ways.

First we have all the experts ,people in the industry (?) people in the periphery of the industry, people that think they are in the industry, anyone here actually work for a model company with a hands on kind of job other than in the warehouse, at the counter of the local hobby shop?

then the hard to fathom opinions that todays technology just doesn't stand up to the craftsmen of yesterday. In the days of yore almost everything was done by hand, drawings, mock ups large scale models of each piece, pantograph rescaling to what ever scale the box was

Todays computer programing, CNC's, better metallurgy, you name it space age technology ( remember that ? we went to the moon in what ? 1969 ) and it takes longer, more money and they still can't get things right ?

Too many excuses. Look at any industry and you will see improvements, ideas moving into the future (i.e. 3D printing)

[Harry P.]

Todays computer programing, CNC's, better metallurgy, you name it space age technology ( remember that ? we went to the moon in what ? 1969 )

Don't you know that the moon landing was staged in the Nevada desert?

[cobraman]

Does the person whose guess is closest win a prize???

I spy another new Harry. This one is better. Can I say that ?

[Art Anderson]

As I understand it, Revell's Kurtis Midget kits spent well over 10 years in development, it was originally conceived as a companion to be released together with the '48 Ford woodie.

With such subjects as the Kurtis Midget, I suspect that it took the loss of mass merchants as buyers for model car kits in any sort of quantity for that to happen--I rather doubt it took 10 years to develop that kit, for example. Having been in the position of developing diecast models (Johnny Lightning 1/64 scale) for a few years, it was often both amazing and frustrating to see the limitations on what we might bring to market, based on such expectations as expressed by buyers from the big chain stores. In fact, many of the model car kits we've seen these past 4-5 years simply would not have happened had model kit manufacturers had to "toe the mark" with some toy department buyer in Bentonville AR.

Art

[Art Anderson]

This is all so unbelievable in so many different ways.

First we have all the experts ,people in the industry (?) people in the periphery of the industry, people that think they are in the industry, anyone here actually work for a model company with a hands on kind of job other than in the warehouse, at the counter of the local hobby shop?

then the hard to fathom opinions that todays technology just doesn't stand up to the craftsmen of yesterday. In the days of yore almost everything was done by hand, drawings, mock ups large scale models of each piece, pantograph rescaling to what ever scale the box was

Todays computer programing, CNC's, better metallurgy, you name it space age technology ( remember that ? we went to the moon in what ? 1969 ) and it takes longer, more money and they still can't get things right ?

Too many excuses. Look at any industry and you will see improvements, ideas moving into the future (i.e. 3D printing)

Greg,

There are several who post on this forum, as well as at least one other very large forum who've either "been there, done that" or are at least involved to some degree as "outside, or extra" help when it comes to product development for model car kits. Their experience can range all over the desktop in this regard.

As for modern technology--oh yeah! That does get used. Most of the tooling mockups I've seen in recent years have been made in part, or in their entirety by 3D printing, laser scanning is most certainly used, as is CAD/CAM all the way along. However, rather than being a complete replacement for other, older, less technologically advanced methods, the modern hi-tech "tools" simply add another layer, replacing a lot of the former hand-work, etc. But most definitely, research photographs, measuring sticks and tapes, and any/all other printed information is still highly valuable. And, in the end, no camera, no laser, has yet replaced the human eye as the final source for judging the correctness or incorrectness of a model.

Art

[High octane]

I know the people who own the Chi-Town Hustler and I heard that when Revell went to the garage to take measurements as well as measurements of the Hawaiian, that the cost of tooling the CTH was to be $148,000 and it is the ONLY funny car with the offset engine and driver compartment.

[tbill]

I gotta admit, I was kind of just thinking out loud when I posted this, and didn't think it would generate much interest, but it has become pretty interesting.

I work in a new car dealership, and I see the mark up on parts [ridiculous some times], so it got me to thinking about cost/mark up/ profit margin on kits. I wonder as well what the 'normal' mark up is on a kit, cause we all know that the vendors aren't selling them at cost, and there are differences in 'our cost' across the board depending on where you shop.

just more thinking out loud I guess.

[Austin T]

I gotta admit, I was kind of just thinking out loud when I posted this, and didn't think it would generate much interest, but it has become pretty interesting.

I work in a new car dealership, and I see the mark up on parts [ridiculous some times], so it got me to thinking about cost/mark up/ profit margin on kits. I wonder as well what the 'normal' mark up is on a kit, cause we all know that the vendors aren't selling them at cost, and there are differences in 'our cost' across the board depending on where you shop.

just more thinking out loud I guess.

Well at work we get them usually for a buck or two less than the 40% off discount that the big chain has. Recently revell kit have been climbing in price,