New kits with flaws.

[keyser]

I know Moebius will do far better than this, they hammered their 300. Show you how difficult it is to capture this truck. Or not.

Edited December 23, 2014 by keyser

[keyser]

I'm sorry Steve, it was mikemodeller who called someone jack-wagon.

Still, the same issue some of us point out at kits can be leveled at HVAC.

Sorry I crosswired you, you've been reasonable. I almost didn't post, but couple things were to egregious to leave steaming.

Edited December 23, 2014 by keyser

[martinfan5]

we should be focusing our "perfection" argument in other areas rather than something as basically meaningless as a model car kit.

Steve, I want to ask you an honest question, and I in no way trying to start a argument with you, but why do model company's get a pass on their products when their are not as good as they could be ?.

Edited December 23, 2014 by martinfan5

[Bennyg]

Having several hundred unbuilt kits in my stash, if the entire model industry goes out of business tonight I'll never live long enough to build what I already have on hand. If a model company wants my ever harder to earn money the new kit better be a subject I'm interested in, and it better look like that subject. And it better have the scripts and emblems molded on it. Moebius is doing that, others aren't.

I'd like phote etch badging or self adhesive chrome like in the tamiya kits. Just my opinion. I really love the lonestar and prostar. A few little things could be improved but they fit together nicely, and are completely new subjects. Moebius improved the instruction sheet for the prostar as well after feedback from the lonestar. It shows they really listen and definitely try to please customers.

Ben

[martinfan5]

I really love the lonestar and prostar. A few little things could be improved but they fit together nicely, and are completely new subjects. Moebius improved the instruction sheet for the prostar as well after feedback from the lonestar. It shows they really listen and definitely try to please customers.

Ben

Both good kits, and I enjoyed building both of them, and hopefully will build a few more done the road, and I agree, the instruction sheet for the Prostar was very much an improvement, I am happy the listen and made the change.

[Craig Irwin]

I'd like phote etch badging or self adhesive chrome like in the tamiya kits. Just my opinion. I really love the lonestar and prostar. A few little things could be improved but they fit together nicely, and are completely new subjects. Moebius improved the instruction sheet for the prostar as well after feedback from the lonestar. It shows they really listen and definitely try to please customers.

Ben

PE is great, but I can't afford to buy PE sets anymore and US kit manufactures aren't going to include it when printing emblems on the decal sheet works for most builders.

I guess they could include them on the chrome tree like the Revell 69 Z/28 emblems. Those looked good.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Craig Irwin

[StevenGuthmiller]

Steve, I want to ask you an honest question, and I in no way trying to start a argument with you, but why do model company's get a pass on their products when their are not as good as they could be ?.

Not giving them a pass Jonathan. I get annoyed about poor kit engineering as anyone. Believe me, I've done my fair share of cussing when things aren't "as advertized". I just believe, in the grand scheme of things, it's not all that important. There are much more pressing things in life. whether or not a body line is incorrect or a roof is too high is of little consequence. Like any product, I think we should have a reasonable expectation that it will be done correctly, but if I have to choose between things I would like to be done correctly, I'd rather it were the brakes in my car than the engine size in the kit I just bought. Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

I'm sorry Steve, it was mikemodeller who called someone jack-wagon.

Still, the same issue some of us point out at kits can be leveled at HVAC.

Sorry I crosswired you, you've been reasonable. I almost didn't post, but couple things were to egregious to leave steaming.

I apologize as well Christian. I prefer not to get into these arguments, especially on a model site, but sometimes the ball gets rolling & things go a little over board. Let's just call this one a draw! Steve

[martinfan5]

Not giving them a pass Jonathan. I get annoyed about poor kit engineering as anyone. Believe me, I've done my fair share of cussing when things aren't "as advertized". I just believe, in the grand scheme of things, it's not all that important. There are much more pressing things in life. whether or not a body line is incorrect or a roof is too high is of little consequence. Like any product, I think we should have a reasonable expectation that it will be done correctly, but if I have to choose between things I would like to be done correctly, I'd rather it were the brakes in my car than the engine size in the kit I just bought. Steve

Thank you Steve, I can agree with that.

Edited December 23, 2014 by martinfan5

[unclescott58]

Go ahead, censor me and take it down!

This says it all. I love it! Thanks Jesse. I'm confused on who I agree with and don't agree with anymore on this thread. I again just want to thank Dave for sharing him insights and doing the great job he is with Moebius.

Scott

[fumi]

Do American model companies have local contacts in China to coordinate the different tasks and parties involved?

Aoshima has long shifted their production to China and they don't seem to have that much trouble with quality or proportions. I believe they send their staff over to look over production issues.

[Guest]

Steve, I want to ask you an honest question, and I in no way trying to start a argument with you, but why do model company's get a pass on their products when their are not as good as they could be ?.

They don't get a pass per say, but I think Dave has MORE than explained why these things happen.

[Speedfreak]

Do American model companies have local contacts in China to coordinate the different tasks and parties involved?

Aoshima has long shifted their production to China and they don't seem to have that much trouble with quality or proportions. I believe they send their staff over to look over production issues.

Seems to be one of the more, (if not 'the' most) relevant posts in the whole thread. The major (the elephant in the conversation if you like) issue with domestic companies doesn't apprear so much to be people 'not' doing their job(s) to assure quality kits, but , rather the fact that those kits are being manufactured on the other side of the world and the problems inherent in that fact. Go figure. I love modeling, and will continue to purchase and build kits

Edited December 23, 2014 by Speedfreak

[Erik Smith]

Great input Dave - I really appreciate your post. I have no clue how the model companies operate, so I am intrigued at any tidbit.

[Repstock]

I will never understand this issue. There will never be a perfect model, and I can accept that. Can I do a better job than Moebius? No way. Does that mean I'm an anal retentive crybaby if I notice inaccuracies? I don't see why it would. If nothing else, these so called "rivet counters" have pointed out things I was unaware of, and have given me the opportunity to fix (or not fix) an inaccuracy.

I really appreciate the model companies, Moebius in particular, putting such effort in these great kits. I'm going to buy a bunch of the Ford pickups. But DON'T stifle the rivet counters. They point out issues (tactfully or not), that I can check for myself and decide if I agree with them or not. I have learned a lot from them. Some of my models are better because of them. Do we really want the board to just be cheerleaders for the model companies, or do we want real discussion? Real discussion is sometimes painful, irritating, and difficult.

For those of you who just build as a pastime, for fun only, try to understand there are those of us who want to accomplish more. If I'm not going to do my best, I don't want to do it...even if it's just a hobby. I find no fun in a project if I'm not doing my best. I will never build a perfect model, but my result usually reflects my effort. I want to hear ALL aspects of a kit, good and bad. I will learn, I will get better.

Thank you, Moebius, great job!

Thank you, rivet counters, I've learned from you.

[johnbuzzed]

Mr. Metzger, thanks for coming back and commenting further. Agree that long gestations kill profit, enthusiasm within a company, and changes can compound multiple errors.

I alluded to the communication issues, as there are many dialects of Chinese, despite common written language. Business often uses Mandarin, but Wu is used in Shanghai, and others in various manufacturing cities. It was awful that the Mints lost all their tools and product.

Patent laws are often merely suggestions, and large businesses need people on the ground, multi-lingual, absolutely always.

China has been changing for decades, continues to do so, hence overhead reduction. Manpower used to be cheap in China, but no more, and profit margins are pushed higher as growth demands. I've had friends doing business in China for decades, and their growth and learning curve has been far steeper than most, similar to Vietnam's. As we see now acutely, Russia left in the dust.

My work didn't allow for mistakes generally, I'm a chest physician, did ICU too. Retired last year due to cancer, but was multitasking for many years. Errors weren't acceptable. Model cars are generally irrelevant pastimes, but it should look like it's intended. Hot Wheels, Maisto do it, even Lego does nice T1 bus with square blocks. Wiper motors, Xbraces on 57 Belair convertibles? Who cares? Rooflines, fenders, proportions matter. If not to you, awesome.

I guess mikemodeler's calling people that have different standards as he has "jack-wagons". Cool.

Tom Geiger, your couple rants about "jack-wagons", running off Dave M, and need for "perfect" kits and "minutiae" like roof contours, etc. pretty much pull same fallacies as usual. You and I both know good kits, and some of these aren't good. It isn't about "perfect" (everyone's words but the people complaining about flaws), and it isn't about "minutiae", as you called it.

Moebius sounds like they've beat their head on a Chinese wall for the 60's Ford pickup for years, and I have no doubt fixes have created other problems. Test shot posted awhile back had things that weren't quite minutiae, but not my place to point it out, as it was work in progress. If someone asked, I'm happy to help. However, looking at a very flawed MotorMax diecast makes it easy to understand Moebius' blasted timeline.

Harry P, I agree with your comments. I do believe that there are some free resources to help kit makers check accuracy. I also think Bill's comment about rapid prototyping with 3D printing is on the mark. The files are the issue, guys that have seen the car, or the references, and can correspond with the manufacturer are the crucial step. Breeding the cow takes work. Everything else is just making the sandwich look nice and fit in our mouth.

Real class indeed. Love the emperor's clothes, or gtfo:

PS: These threads are not unique to this board, and pale compared to an IPMS discourse. Just sayin'

Mediocrity-It's what we do best!

Amen to all that.

[mikemodeler]

So I am the bad guy for calling rivet counters "jack wagons", I can live with that. The intention of my comment was to understand why Dave can come on here and explain what probably frustrates him as much as us in the model kit development process and members had to start in on flaws in kits that were recently produced by a company he doesn't work for!

The flawed kits have been discussed here endlessly and this wasn't the thread to bring them up again. Dave has tried to explain the inner workings of kit development, a subject few of us have insight to, and the industry gets blasted for not using what others feel are the tools to create a better kit. I offered that if a forum member here had the ability to help a kit manufacturer, then step up and do so instead of hiding behind a keyboard pontificating how smart they are.

I never stated that we should settle for less than a correct kit, but after reading Dave's opening post, I realized that sacrifices are made in the process to get a kit to market. Sad that it has to be that way, but when we are complaining about kits being $25+, do you think the market would bear prices hitting $35-40 if the manufacturers raised them in response to spending more on development teams and equipment? The Meng F-350 kit was retailing for $70 and it had flaws that were widely reported here so not sure if more dollars equals better quality.

I do appreciate the honest reviews of a kit and the associated flaws with them. I have avoided the Revell Mustang kit as an example of a kit that just doesn't look right and do wonder how they got it wrong.

I truly hope that the upcoming Ford Pickup kits from Moebius are what we all have been waiting for in terms of accuracy. The early test shots sure got a lot of comments and if we have learned anything it's that Dave listens and tries to get it right, something Revell could learn from.

[johnbuzzed]

"I... do wonder how they got it wrong." Exactly. While the comments might have strayed from the intention of the original post, that little fragment is the gist or crux or essence of those that followed.

[mikemodeler]

"I... do wonder how they got it wrong." Exactly. While the comments might have strayed from the intention of the original post, that little fragment is the gist or crux or essence of those that followed.

And that has no place in a post from the head guy at Moebius when others drag Revell into the discussion and want to rag on about an issue that has been discussed endlessly.

[johnbuzzed]

Sure it does. A forum is a discussion, a conversation, and like all conversations, has a way of straying from the initial topic, for various reasons. Perhaps the issue should be discussed endlessly. It has to do with quality, which has been sorely lacking in too many products and services in recent years.

[Art Anderson]

Dave Metzner began this thread with a pretty courageous post, frankly. And, a lot of concerns have been expressed, but something occurs to me that has yet to be discussed, and that is (to use an oft-overused phrase that I believe is very relevant here) the "learning curve".

Every modeler who has, is or ever will read this forum has gone through a learning curve to get to where they are today. And in the very same way, every person who's ever worked in product development in the plastic model kit field has gone through perhaps an even steeper learning curve!

I've been on this planet over 70 years now, and have been building model cars for 62 of those years--I think I've seen a lot of "water flow under the bridge" in this hobby, and the industries which supply and support it. Down through those years, I've seen my share of failed model companies, lousy kits (FWIW, Premier/Palmer WAS a company operating completely in the US!), great kits, and kits which fell somewhere in the middle. I've been privileged to see a lot of the inside of a plastic model company (AMT Corporation), done considerable product development (resin cast aftermarket, AMT Corporation, Playing Mantis, a brief stay at RC2, and a volunteer in assisting with Moebius product development)--and believe me, there's very little that surprises me anymore. In that, I've seen development people come and go, learn and grow in their time in the industry as well. And, I've made my own legions of mistakes as well (had some successes too).

In the highly technical industry that the model kit business has become over these past 10-15 years, with the rise and almost tsunami of digital tools and techniques, it ought to be realized that there are some qualities that any person working to develop a new model kit--at any stage of the game--simply has to have, in order to be successful, produce a sucessful product; that next model car kit that will light hot fires.

The time was (and not all that long ago, frankly!) when the development of a new model car kit could be done in much the same "time honored" way as real cars were developed (the styling, the body shapes, which are the two first characteristics that grab out attention as a general rule). That meant an old-time draftsman or two doing the drawings necessary for the old-time wood-carving pattern maker to be able to hand-carve each and every part of the proposed new model kit. It meant having old-time tool & die makers, working with both ordinary lathes and mills, as well as 3-dimensional pantographs to cut detailed cavities in steel dies with what really were highly sophisticated Dremel Moto-Tools (given that they were using high speed rotary milling cutters) to create the dies necessary to mold that new kit. It also meant all of those craftsmen having both the KNOWLEDGE of the real thing, along with the PASSION to apply that knowledge to the end product.

That all went away in just the past 15-20 years though! Now, it's very much all digital. From simple CAD, to 3D CAD and 3D scans of the drawings the latter technology can produce--reviewed and critiqued all along the way. Finally, 3D rapid prototyped tooling mockups, to show the product development folks back in the office what the proposed model kit will look like (as the engineers see it). It is at this stage where the heavy lifting really begins though. The designers sitting at their keyboards, wiggling their mouses back and forth/fore and aft may well be highly skilled at what they know how to do--BUT, do they REALLY know the subject matter they've been assigned to create, in order to create realistic parts that will pass modelers' collective scrutiny? Do they have the KNOWLEDGE of the actual subject which can be invaluable in creating accurately scaled and shaped model kit parts? And perhaps most importantly, DO THEY HAVE THE PASSION to learn what they don't know about the product under development inside and out, front and back, up and down, side to side?

All the technical skills are but mere tools of the trade, no more and no less than the draftsman's T-square, triangles, French curves, dividers and drawing pencils. In the same way, all the digitally created tooling mockups and the equipment that will make not only those, but the final tooling for that new kit are nothing all that different from the skilled hands and blades of the old-time skilled artisan craftsmen who used to sculpt tooling mockups from raw blocks of wood, nor are they completely divorced from the old fashioned tool and die makers who used their skills and knowledge to guide their hands and the cutting tools they maneuvered.

The same goes for those few people (and in the US, there likely aren't more than perhaps a dozen people across the country who do this very work) who do all the reference and research for new model kits, gather dimensions, find and go out and photograph and measure the real vehicle, then work to guide the people doing all the drawings, scans, tooling mockups and the tooling itself. This kind of work demands as much, if perhaps not more--it is THEY who must KNOW the actual subject "over, under, around and through", and HAVE THE PASSION TO USE THAT KNOWLEDGE to the best advantage, the best result possible.

Where say, Ford Motor Company might invest a billion dollars to develop an all new car, no model company likely has as much money to invest in new tooling as Ford would spend in one minute on a totally new product. Model companies almost never have anything that even looks like a bottomless bag of $$ to spend on a new product.

And, last, but often more important than any of the above, is the ability to communicate across 13,000 miles (that's roughly 13 time zones folks!), from one culture to another-in-so-many-ways-different than ours what needs to be accomplished.

While over time, any group or team working on projects like the model car kits we love to buy and build will grow and learn, there will always be the time when some part of that team changes, someone goes away (by whatever reason or means), and thus the learning curve gets reset to 0 once again, at least in the area affected by that turnover. If an entire "cog" in all this "machinery" is taken out of the picture, that learning curve can be pretty rough indeed

In the end, any company striving to succeed in what is a very tough business will get that kit right enough (as a general rule) to the point that the vast majority of model builders will enjoy it (keep in mind, this and every other model car forum on the Web is but a microcosm, perhaps not even a good statistical sample of the entire model car building community out there!), the more skilled builders will see improvements that can be made and do them (and others will fret because they lack some of those skills)--but if the kit is good enough, it will go forward, and generate the income necessary to pay for all the efforts to get it to market which will provide capital for the next one down the line. And, the learning curve (which I know Dave Metzner and I both have experienced in a very real way!) will continue it's upward trend. And all of what I have said is likely very true with each and every model kit manufacturer on the planet.

Art

[Scott Colmer]

Art hit on a good point. 3D rapid printing should be able to help a model company fine tune the CAD drawing before going to the mold stage. That can be done state side and should be affordable.

I would also like to add that is not easy to replicate a vehicle in scale. I have been replicating a hot rod Peterbuilt. I was able to get in on the ground floor when the frame was constructed. I took lots of measurements and pictures. I had to go back to the 1:1 project many, many times to re-measure or figure out some detail here or there. Then there is the issue with plastic body thickness vs real body thickness.

This is not to excuse a company that puts out a less than accurate product. It's just an acknowledgement that it is not easy.

I think that ultimately the buyers will decide with their money if a kit is up to par. Would you rather buy a monogram 69 Camaro or one from Revell or even AMT?

Scott

[w451973]

Dave. Thank you for the insight on getting a subject made. I'm looking forward to the F-100.

This goes out to any and all the model manufactures. China ? Weeks of waiting ? Rising costs. I can't help but to think of the time and effort in comunication that could be saved by having it done here in the USA. There are plenty of capable people here in the US that can do the same job. Possibly even better. There are still alot of proud Americans out there that are willing to work and do not expect to make 15 bucks an hour flipping burgers. Americans usually know the subjects and can get measurements, pics and details faster then China.

Sorry, but as the consumer whom all those costs are passed onto, I expect correct body lines and details for my 25 bucks plus. I don't give a rats patuty about all the costs and hold ups. That is the manufactures problems. Not the consumers. The manufacturers should make better choices where they send their work to. In this day and age it is nothing more then excuses. This is a hobby and there are many more things out there that I can spend the money on, then inaccurte kits. I am a builder and I expect to fix, repair or change things but not when it comes to the most important things people see, like body lins, grills etc.

[Harry P.]

Dave. Thank you for the insight on getting a subject made. I'm looking forward to the F-100.

This goes out to any and all the model manufactures. China ? Weeks of waiting ? Rising costs. I can't help but to think of the time and effort in comunication that could be saved by having it done here in the USA. There are plenty of capable people here in the US that can do the same job. Possibly even better. There are still alot of proud Americans out there that are willing to work and do not expect to make 15 bucks an hour flipping burgers. Americans usually know the subjects and can get measurements, pics and details faster then China.

Sorry, but as the consumer whom all those costs are passed onto, I expect correct body lines and details for my 25 bucks plus. I don't give a rats patuty about all the costs and hold ups. That is the manufactures problems. Not the consumers. The manufacturers should make better choices where they send their work to. In this day and age it is nothing more then excuses. This is a hobby and there are many more things out there that I can spend the money on, then inaccurte kits. I am a builder and I expect to fix, repair or change things but not when it comes to the most important things people see, like body lins, grills etc.

Models are manufactured in China because Chinese labor costs are a fraction of US labor costs. It all boils down to "where can we manufacture these kits for the least possible cost?" No way anybody is going to pay American wages when they can pay Chinese wages. That's just a fact in this global economy. It has nothing to do with who can do the job best... it's all about who can do the job cheapest, and with the current situation regarding model car building, model kit companies have to look to cut costs in every way possible. If that means sending manufacturing to China to save some $$$, then that's what's going to happen.

[BubbaBrown]

I'd like to thank Moebus and Dave for all they have done for the hobby so far and are awaiting the new kits to come. Thanks Dave for being open and having so much patience, never to my knowledge has anyone from the industry chatted so often of whats happening from that high of chair. i'm old and I can't remember a kit with so much engineering as the Hudsons. I think you have been great for the hobby. Please keep it up. God willing I plan on buying alot of your coming soon auto's. Thanks again