round2 archives

[DynoMight]

Round 2 is a company that started out leasing the AMT molds (including Ertl and MPC) from Learning Curve/RC2. At the end of the licensing agreement, Round 2 opted to purchase the molds from RC2. Since then, Round 2 has added Polar Lights as well as Lindberg and Hawk. They own all the tooling for those companies and are reissuing whatever is complete, it seems. Some tools are fixed up if they need to be, with some parts being restored or added from previous versions. Some of the kits haven't been issued in decades, some have. Not entirely sure how they are picking what to produce.

Personally I think they just get someone a blindfold and say, "pick one"

[Bennyg]

Personally I think they just get someone a blindfold and say, "pick one"

Lol! That's gold.

Ben

[1930fordpickup]

Can someone explain Round 2 to me? I have been pretty bummed with the AMT kits I have gotten, they seem to have a ton of flash and require an absurd amount of prep, but I like the subjects. Is Round 2 re-tooling everything they release, or only some of them?

The 66 Nova PS I had a lot of trouble with.

I think they have a small budget to fix the latest repop. Just remember one thing about injection molding. It only takes .003 one thousands of an inch to flash. That is the thickness of the average hair on your head or a piece of paper. It does not take much for a mold to flash is all I am saying.

Edited August 15, 2014 by 1930fordpickup

[JS23U]

Here is a list I compiled of AMT kits that might still exist, as to my knowledge they had not been butchered with after the annual issues. Some of them had reissues but kept the stock version.

58 Ford, Buick, Pontiac

59 Ford, Edsel, Mercury, Chevy (craftsman), Buick (craftsman)

60 Ford, Thunderbird, Edsel, Mercury, Buick, Pontiac (craftsman), Impala

61 Ford Sunliner/Starliner

62 Ford, Buick Wagon, Pontiac, Valiant

63 T-Bird, Mercury Meteor, Chevy and Ford Pickup (altered to later promos?), Falcon and Comet convertible

64 Wildcat, Bonneville, Grand Prix, Corvair

67 Fairlane

68 Galaxie (69 kit is much different, but they seem to have used some sprues from the 68)

69 Lincoln, El Camino (seems to share the molds with the Chevelle hardtop and convertible kit, hopefully these parts are still there)

69 Torino Hardtop/convertible, was this a separate kit or shared it parts with the fastback?

Edited August 14, 2014 by JS23U

[DynoMight]

69 Lincoln, El Camino (seems to share the molds with the Chevelle hardtop and convertible kit, hopefully these parts are still there)

I would really really really like the '69 Elco. That would be awesome.

[bbowser]

Here is a list I compiled of AMT kits that might still exist, as to my knowledge they had not been butchered with after the annual issues. Some of them had reissues but kept the stock version.

58 Ford, Buick, Pontiac

59 Ford, Edsel, Mercury, Chevy (craftsman), Buick (craftsman)

60 Ford, Thunderbird, Edsel, Mercury, Buick, Pontiac (craftsman), Impala

61 Ford Sunliner/Starliner

62 Ford, Buick Wagon, Pontiac, Valiant

63 T-Bird, Mercury Meteor, Chevy and Ford Pickup (altered to later promos?), Falcon and Comet convertible

64 Wildcat, Bonneville, Grand Prix, Corvair

67 Fairlane

68 Galaxie (69 kit is much different, but they seem to have used some sprues from the 68)

69 Lincoln, El Camino (seems to share the molds with the Chevelle hardtop and convertible kit, hopefully these parts are still there)

69 Torino Hardtop/convertible, was this a separate kit or shared it parts with the fastback?

I'll take one of each, please!

[jbwelda]

>It only takes .003 thousands of an inch

I think you must mean 3 one thousands of an inch. .003"

.003 thousands of an inch = 3 millionths of an inch

jb

[GMP440]

I would add the MPC 68' and 69' Dodge Coronet R/T to the list of kits that may not have been butchered.

I would be surprised that MPC used those to modify into the 70' Coronet R/T kit. The 70 is a very different car in the front fenders, grill , rear quarters and tailpanel areas. Maybe new tooling from scratch was the route MPC took

to do a new Coronet kit for 1970. It's just speculation.

Maybe Round 2 is looking into reissuing both years, but have not decided when because of other subject matter

being released. Round 2 is releasing a lot of subjects that have not seen daylight for over 40 years. And these kits are being released quickly.

It's possible we may see both the 68 and 69 released in the near future. We all would love to see these come out.

Edited August 15, 2014 by GMP440

[jbwelda]

what happened to the 63 Ford and 63 Chevy pickup trucks, that came with the Bonneville style go kart and the Triumph motorcycle (respectively)? wish they were on that list...oh I see the Ford truck is, wonder what the status is with that?

wish they could issue the go kart and the triumph in one parts pack. now that would be spectacular and might not even cost much development money (seems to be their speciality) if the molds were still available! maybe I could get a job consulting these guys with ideas like that!

jb

Edited August 15, 2014 by jbwelda

[ChrisBcritter]

Here is a list I compiled of AMT kits that might still exist, as to my knowledge they had not been butchered with after the annual issues. Some of them had reissues but kept the stock version.

59 Buick (craftsman) GONE

60 Thunderbird GONE

61 Ford Sunliner GONE

62 Ford GONE

I asked specifically about these four kits and JohnG said to the best of his knowledge they are long gone.

You might want to post a question on the collectormodel.com "What's a hanger shot?" page; he's been very helpful there letting us know what exists (I'd like to find out about the '69 Lincoln as well!).

[HomerS]

DynoMight, on 07 Aug 2014 - 7:07 PM, said:

Personally I think they just get someone a blindfold and say, "pick one

It seems to work well for the weather forecasters......especially when a front approaches with snow

[1930fordpickup]

>It only takes .003 thousands of an inch

I think you must mean 3 one thousands of an inch. .003"

.003 thousands of an inch = 3 millionths of an inch

jb

Yes that is what i was saying . I fixed my post.

[VW93]

I would hope that R2 has someone in charge of these hanger shots that knows what he's looking at.

I could just imagine some 20 something year old fresh out of college looking at a tool for say a mid 60's Malibu and saying "Gee, I didn't know they made Malibu's back then !"

[Bob Ellis]

Chris, it's interesting that you mentioned the '69 Lincoln. Apparently, it's not the same tool as the '61-65 Lincoln. The '65 came back in '69 as the Beard of Paradise along with the '69 annual. I am guessing the '66-69 was a different tool. It had a complete chrome engine.

[pack rat]

I would hope that R2 has someone in charge of these hanger shots that knows what he's looking at.

I could just imagine some 20 something year old fresh out of college looking at a tool for say a mid 60's Malibu and saying "Gee, I didn't know they made Malibu's back then !"

Don't worry....the guy in charge knows his stuff.

Re the '63 Ford pickup....possibly the most-desired, most-missed old AMT tool; unfortunately I believe they have stated that its officially "lost".

[jbwelda]

that's interesting, I wonder what "lost" means? like literally lost, implying the possibility of one day being found? or is it more lost as in tossed overboard in a storm, or cut up and sold as scrap?

I also wonder what the deal could have been with those accessories, the kart and the motorcycle, as I recall they might have been on separate trees from all the truck stuff, which might, just might, fingers crossed, mean that they could be found apart from the trucks themselves. they MUST know those things would be worthwhile repopping, especially given their current parts pack releases. but they might also just be some mold hidden away back in a corner that either no one has looked at, or looked at and didn't know what they were looking at, or looked at and just dismissed as some old stuff no one would be interested in? I understand it is often difficult to visualize what a mold is for, looking at its parts alone, so maybe something like these accessories just get lost in the shuffle?

jb

[VW93]

pack rat, good to hear that someone that knows the product is in charge.

[Mark]

that's interesting, I wonder what "lost" means? like literally lost, implying the possibility of one day being found? or is it more lost as in tossed overboard in a storm, or cut up and sold as scrap?

I also wonder what the deal could have been with those accessories, the kart and the motorcycle, as I recall they might have been on separate trees from all the truck stuff, which might, just might, fingers crossed, mean that they could be found apart from the trucks themselves. they MUST know those things would be worthwhile repopping, especially given their current parts pack releases. but they might also just be some mold hidden away back in a corner that either no one has looked at, or looked at and didn't know what they were looking at, or looked at and just dismissed as some old stuff no one would be interested in? I understand it is often difficult to visualize what a mold is for, looking at its parts alone, so maybe something like these accessories just get lost in the shuffle?

jb

Lost likely means scrapped. May have been thought of as having no value for future reissues at some point, or could have been worn out or damaged enough that it was deemed not worth repairing. Everything is "on the books" with a value assigned to it. When a company has an especially good year, they will scrap "obsolete" items and "write them off" to remove the item from the books and reduce their income (and also their income tax) for that year. If storage space is limited, they will thin the herd every so often to make room. I've heard from two parties that were interested in commissioning a private-label reissue of the Ford pickup, that it was searched for and not found (or otherwise it was determined that it no longer exists). If it's not there, it's not there. The Chevrolet pickup tool was updated through 1966 to produce promotional models; it still exists but is likely not part of the Round 2 inventory. Someone has (or at least had) it, because in the Nineties there was a reissue promo model produced from the tool. American SATCO announced a reissue of it in kit form after that, but they never followed through on it.

Years ago, I spoke to someone who worked for Lesney during the period they owned AMT. All of the tools were moved from the AMT building in Michigan (which had been sold) to Baltimore. While there, some items were stored outdoors which isn't the best environment for tooling with fine detail. From there, everything went to Iowa after the Ertl acquisition of AMT.

[pack rat]

that's interesting, I wonder what "lost" means? like literally lost, implying the possibility of one day being found? or is it more lost as in tossed overboard in a storm, or cut up and sold as scrap?

Good point. I forget the exact words used, but the conversation implied that the search was over, and they couldn't re-issue what they didn't have....in other words, "lost" as in "gone".

[tim boyd]

Lost likely means scrapped. May have been thought of as having no value for future reissues at some point, or could have been worn out or damaged enough that it was deemed not worth repairing. Everything is "on the books" with a value assigned to it. When a company has an especially good year, they will scrap "obsolete" items and "write them off" to remove the item from the books and reduce their income (and also their income tax) for that year. If storage space is limited, they will thin the herd every so often to make room. I've heard from two parties that were interested in commissioning a private-label reissue of the Ford pickup, that it was searched for and not found (or otherwise it was determined that it no longer exists). If it's not there, it's not there. The Chevrolet pickup tool was updated through 1966 to produce promotional models; it still exists but is likely not part of the Round 2 inventory. Someone has (or at least had) it, because in the Nineties there was a reissue promo model produced from the tool. American SATCO announced a reissue of it in kit form after that, but they never followed through on it.

Years ago, I spoke to someone who worked for Lesney during the period they owned AMT. All of the tools were moved from the AMT building in Michigan (which had been sold) to Baltimore. While there, some items were stored outdoors which isn't the best environment for tooling with fine detail. From there, everything went to Iowa after the Ertl acquisiAMTtion of AMT.

To add some additional info and support for Mark's explanation, I was doing some work for AMT from 1975-78, and I was hoping to get hired at AMT when I graduated college in early 1978.

I recall at the time being told by some of the longer-term AMT staff that the company had been through several periods of financial challenges, during the late 1960's and again a couple of times in the early 70's. AMT's executive team did scrap some of the older molds during this time, for the tax/depreciation benefits which helped the financial situation.

AMT went through another period of difficulties in 1978 (one reason they did not hire me at the time), including a strike by the factory workers at the Troy facility (they were represented by the UAW). The leadership team never settled with the UAW, instead they packed up the factory and sent everything to their second assembly facility in Baltimore, which had been setup a few years earlier during the semi-truck kit boon. Much was lost during that move.

Both of these events could help to explain why some of the tools were "lost". They were, in effect, actually scrapped. Too bad...like several of you, I'd love to see that '63 Unibody F100 back, not to mention the Kart and the Triumph Bonneville that was in the Chevy pickup kit!

.

On the other hand, it also appears much we thought was "lost" still actually exists in one form or another. I understand that former AMT staffer John Mueller was retained by Round 2 to go through all the old tools and run test shots with the runners opened up He knows those like the back of his hand. If something exists and is usable, John would have included it in his inventory.

TIM

[Tom Geiger]

I believe the situation is that we need to be in utter amazement at what tooling does exist, instead of upset at what doesn't. While much of the hobby takes it as a given that it should exist, this isn't the case at all. And this just wouldn't happen in business today. First, note that most of the early tooling was produced to a much higher quality than needed, allowing it to still be in operating condition 50 years later. Today's businesses would design the tooling to last exactly the usage they had planned. Then for tooling to go into a warehouse and never be used again, until it's being looked at today is utterly amazing. Again, today, every one of those would have been inventoried, bar coded, had a asset value attached and depreciated annually. There would be a report that covered the storage costs, depreciation and other costs of that tool's continued existence, especially in situations where they paid to move this dead weight several times.

We weren't there so a lot of modelers assume that the management of these companies back in the early 1960s knew that these kits would be collected 50 years later and planned for that. Nothing is further from the truth. I had a conversation with Bob Paeth of Revell back at GSL many years ago. He said that Revell saw itself as a toy company. Their market was kids and they thought those products would be consumed, played with and thrown out. He was honored that history transpired the way it has that we remembered his work today.

In those days model companies focus was about one year out. They tried to get two releases out of each annual. The hardtop at the beginning of the season, followed by the convertible at mid-year. Things like those Revell 1961 glitter cars were a mid year attempt to get one more pressing from those tools before they'd be useless. Annuals were put on clearance at the end of the year because nobody thought anyone would ever want one of those past the model year. That was the sentiment of the 1:1 car business then. Last year's designs were old hat.

So last year's annual usually was tooled into next year's annual promo, as a cost savings effort over producing a whole new tool. It was reasoned that the tool would be scrapped otherwise. I've seen modelers today critical of the companies saying they should've started fresh every year and have kept all the tools. Nobody had a chrystal ball back then to foresee an adult market 40-50 years out. And even if they did, no company is focused out that far, way beyond the retirement of those who were then making the decisions.

Designers got rewarded for coming up with new uses for retired tools. That's how the Beverley Hillbilly truck became the Jolly Roger, and AMT annuals became that stock car series. They got more life out of tools that otherwise would have been scrapped for the metal value, the storage space, and to get the asset off the books. And that's how it went for the vast majority of consumer goods manufacture over the years. And that's how it would work today, in the age of computerized records, and lean companies.

So instead of whining about what was lost, we should be rejoicing that a good portion of the historic tooling from our hobby still exists at all!

[VW93]

Hopefully with all the runners opened up some parts that were include in the original issues will turn up.

I'd like to see the cycle fenders, completion hood and tow bar returned to the '32 Ford coupe. I'm not sure what else would be needed to duplicate the original issue.

Re tool a set of moon discs, add the skinny Firestone slicks and original decals. Do the box like the original issue.

I'd buy several.

[1930fordpickup]

Do not forget that Molds were inventory that was taxed here in Michigan . So if they had no use for the molds in their eyes why pay tax on them. Scrap prices raising when times were tough for the molding company comes out to things being lost/scrapped.

[jbwelda]

>So instead of whining

who exactly is whining? i mean besides you whining about people whining.

jb

[Art Anderson]

I believe the situation is that we need to be in utter amazement at what tooling does exist, instead of upset at what doesn't. While much of the hobby takes it as a given that it should exist, this isn't the case at all. And this just wouldn't happen in business today. First, note that most of the early tooling was produced to a much higher quality than needed, allowing it to still be in operating condition 50 years later. Today's businesses would design the tooling to last exactly the usage they had planned. Then for tooling to go into a warehouse and never be used again, until it's being looked at today is utterly amazing. Again, today, every one of those would have been inventoried, bar coded, had a asset value attached and depreciated annually. There would be a report that covered the storage costs, depreciation and other costs of that tool's continued existence, especially in situations where they paid to move this dead weight several times.

We weren't there so a lot of modelers assume that the management of these companies back in the early 1960s knew that these kits would be collected 50 years later and planned for that. Nothing is further from the truth. I had a conversation with Bob Paeth of Revell back at GSL many years ago. He said that Revell saw itself as a toy company. Their market was kids and they thought those products would be consumed, played with and thrown out. He was honored that history transpired the way it has that we remembered his work today.

In those days model companies focus was about one year out. They tried to get two releases out of each annual. The hardtop at the beginning of the season, followed by the convertible at mid-year. Things like those Revell 1961 glitter cars were a mid year attempt to get one more pressing from those tools before they'd be useless. Annuals were put on clearance at the end of the year because nobody thought anyone would ever want one of those past the model year. That was the sentiment of the 1:1 car business then. Last year's designs were old hat.

So last year's annual usually was tooled into next year's annual promo, as a cost savings effort over producing a whole new tool. It was reasoned that the tool would be scrapped otherwise. I've seen modelers today critical of the companies saying they should've started fresh every year and have kept all the tools. Nobody had a chrystal ball back then to foresee an adult market 40-50 years out. And even if they did, no company is focused out that far, way beyond the retirement of those who were then making the decisions.

Designers got rewarded for coming up with new uses for retired tools. That's how the Beverley Hillbilly truck became the Jolly Roger, and AMT annuals became that stock car series. They got more life out of tools that otherwise would have been scrapped for the metal value, the storage space, and to get the asset off the books. And that's how it went for the vast majority of consumer goods manufacture over the years. And that's how it would work today, in the age of computerized records, and lean companies.

So instead of whining about what was lost, we should be rejoicing that a good portion of the historic tooling from our hobby still exists at all!

Tom makes some excellent points here. For decades, and most understandably (as Tom Geiger has pointed out) "yesterday's" model kit tooling was that, yesterday with tomorrow becoming today and then it too became yesterday. "Last Year's" model kit tooling used to be about as useful as the stamping dies for a '57 Chevy were once production of the '58 began--essentially worthless in the eyes of just about everybody in the industry at that time.

However, as the 1960's progressed, it appears to me that model company management began to see that someday there just might be potential for dusting off those old tools, either for modification into some other version (the stock car racer versions of several 1964-65 car kit tools done by AMT in 1969, for example), or perhaps more severely modified (the pirate ship version of the Beverly Hillbillies truck comes to mind here). Tooling wise, conversions such as those kits could be done at a fraction of the cost of doing something completely new from the table top up, which helped keep model companies such as AMT and MPC going strong in what otherwise was the 1970's decade of decline in the plastic model car kit business (which the 70's definitely were, BTW).

I have here, buried in my files someplace, a pair of tooling inventories sent to me during my 6 months on RC2's payroll after their buyout of Playing Mantis (the company which produced Johnny Lightning diecasts and Polar Lights model kits prior to 2005 BTW). The AMT tooling inventory list is very unorganized, being as it was merely a listing of what Lesney's (the owner of AMT from 1978 to 1982's bankruptcy) receivers found, listed as found, and in no particular order (that tooling had gone through a rapid and probably disorganized move from Michigan to Baltimore MD about 1977), and apparently was in considerable disarray. The bankruptcy officials had no reason to keep the stuff in any sort of order--their job was to simply inventory the stuff probably at scrap value, with perhaps some being listed as having some real value as viable model kit products. That is pretty much what Ertl got in the late summer of 1982 when they were the successful buyer of all of AMT's tooling, designs, and all rights therein. And, that is more than likely what Round2 acquired as well--a large number of tooling bases,, with wooden packing crates of smaller (but still quite heavy) tooling inserts for God-only-knows-what-kit-they-were-for. Fortunately, AMT's principal and longest-serving tooling and design engineer, John Mueller is still around to ID that stuff!

By contrast, my tooling inventory sheets for MPC tooling are VERY organized, by kit number and name, and I would assume that this stuff is still that well sorted out, as MPC was sold to AMT/Ertl outright in 1986, while still a viable operation, up and running. As such, it's amazing to read that listing, see what truly did/does exist as identifiable MPC model kits.

But, old model kit tooling that has not been used in years (even decades) does not mean "found money". Somebody has to investigate each tool to ensure that first, it is complete, and second--does it even look like it is produceable still (time and humidity can render steel tooling unusable if it wasn't properly put into a preservation mode--rusty tooling will not a decent model car kit mold in other words. Another issue is cost: While not anywhere near the cost of an all newly designed model kit and tooling, it's still not cheap to dig out a couple of thousand pounds of injection molding tooling just to open it up and see what's inside. Nor do tool & die people come cheap either (in fact, tool & die makers are in VERY short supply in the US these days!). In addition, there also is that issue we all love to hate here: Licensing! What passed muster with licensors 30-50 years ago may well not meet their standards today--so there's another cost--negotiating with licensors to get that old model kit back into production for us.

Oh, and just how much AMT, MPC and Ertl plastic model kit tooling is/was there? In a press release from Racing Champions upon their buyout of AMT/Ertl in 1998, the number 2,700 was thrown out there. But how many of those tools are seriously produceable today? That's a question only Round2 can answer, if they even yet know.

Art