Would it bother you?

[smhardesty]

James D and Randy L,

Thank you, thank you, thank you. You get it. Yep, if I built it and sold it, I can't be too ticked off if the new owner enters it in a show and wins. My bad. Lesson learned. Although I might have my hackles raised if he entered it in a show I was in and beat me.

And the comparison to 1:1 show car owners that never turned a wrench is just exactly what I had in mind. They do it. It's accepted. No questions asked.

[StevenGuthmiller]

4 hours ago, smhardesty said:

You guys are all ASSUMING the buyer made some attempt to pass it as his own work. I didn't get that impression reading the original post. Simply entering the model in a contest doesn't imply the guy attempted to claim it as his own work. It has simply been entered.

Regardless of whether he tried to pass it off as his own work, it's still pretty boorish if you ask me.

You don't enter anything into a contest unless it's "truly" yours, whether it's a model or if you're entering any other competition.

 

4 hours ago, smhardesty said:

And from this point forward no car may be raced in ANY race, of any kind, unless the driver performed each and every task in the building of that car.

A race is won by the driver.

You would hardly enter a race and then have someone else run it for you.

 

4 hours ago, smhardesty said:

 Are you guys all saying that in every contest with prizes awarded, every piece has to be completely built, constructed, made, etc, etc by the individual entering it?

Yes!

That's the general idea.

Awards are given for the skill of the craftsman, not for an object that's pleasing to the eye.

If that were the case, we could all just buy Paul Hettick models and compete against each other with them.

There would be absolutely no point in that.

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

I will just say that model building is an art form.

Any self respecting artist is not going to go to a local gallery, buy a piece of art & then enter it into another gallery as his own.

And let's face it, regardless of whether or not this person officially "claimed" it as his own work or not, at any show that I have ever been to, it would be assumed.

So unless he is a complete fool and does not understand anything about how a model contest is supposed to work, then he could only be the alternative......a deceitful individual!

Let's be real guys, nobody with any dignity buys a model & then enters it into a contest when he knows that every other entry there was built by the entrant.

It would be completely disrespectful to every other "real" craftsman.

How many guys here who have ever entered your work in a contest would continue to do so if they knew that this sort of deception was acceptable.

Count me out!

 

Steve

[peteski]

2 hours ago, smhardesty said:

No. That's exactly my point. Do you know the rules for that contest run by that club or organization? I don't care how many different contests you have entered, where they were held, or what their rules are. The ONLY thing that is important is what the rules for THAT contest he entered say. Period. And I sure don't know and kind of doubt if you do.

I know you're now trolling.

I would be surprised if *ANY* judged contest didn't have a rule which stated that the the model  entered in the contest had to be the work of the person entering it.  But as you said, we don't have the facts. If the person who stated this thread informed us of the contest rules (he attended that contest after all), there would be no guessing.  And again, the point being made here is that it is not kosher to enter someone else's work in a judged contest.  If you want to keep arguing that it's ok to do that, be my guest.

[1930fordpickup]

It is not the right thing to do with a model for sure. 

As far as AMBR there has been a 2 time winner. The Ridler Award in Detroit it is in the rules that this event is the first time the car can be shown in completed form to be eligible.  

Once you sell a model you no longer have control of it. It is the new owners obligation to do the right thing. 

Many shows have display only tables and everyone still takes pictures of them on the table. What is wrong with that?

All we know is that  it was at a model show correct? 

[smhardesty]

1 hour ago, peteski said:

I know you're now trolling.

I would be surprised if *ANY* judged contest didn't have a rule which stated that the the model  entered in the contest had to be the work of the person entering it.  But as you said, we don't have the facts. If the person who stated this thread informed us of the contest rules (he attended that contest after all), there would be no guessing.  And again, the point being made here is that it is not kosher to enter someone else's work in a judged contest.  If you want to keep arguing that it's ok to do that, be my guest.

I'm wondering how you "know" I'm trolling since you can't know my mind for one, and I'm doing no such thing for another. Usually guys start throwing out such comments once they realize they might be in error. Also, I'm not arguing. I'm expressing my opinion. Guys also start insisting others are arguing once they realize they might be in error.

For instance, you stated that Mark (Mark Hook started this post) "attended that contest after all". You appear to have erred. He, in fact, learned that the model had been entered in the " Goodguys" show in Colorado via a third party who had seen the model. I believe the third party was Ben269. According to what Mark stated in his post, he did not attend.

Further, Mark expressed his thoughts that it doesn't bother him. He further expressed a very sensible realization that the model was no longer his. He sold it. The new owner is free to do with it as he wishes. If that includes entering it in a contest then so be it. 

So the fact is we don't know if the new owner laid claim to being the builder or not. We also don't know if that event had a rule that contestants can only enter their own personal works. These are facts, not opinions.

The question Mark originally asked was whether it would bother each of us if we sold a build to someone who then entered it in a contest. That question requires an opinion from each of us. My personal opinion is that I wouldn't care one way or the other if someone did that with a build of mine. The only way I could object would be if I attached my name to the model, then got a signed agreement from the buyer that he would never enter the model in any show or contest.

If you do that with a model, then you should never attend a 1:1 car show because clearly half or more of the cars there are completely, or at least mostly, built by someone other than the owner. And if you actually stand on principle, then you'd need to avoid the show.

[niteowl7710]

6 hours ago, smhardesty said:

James D and Randy L,

Thank you, thank you, thank you. You get it. Yep, if I built it and sold it, I can't be too ticked off if the new owner enters it in a show and wins. My bad. Lesson learned. Although I might have my hackles raised if he entered it in a show I was in and beat me.

And the comparison to 1:1 show car owners that never turned a wrench is just exactly what I had in mind. They do it. It's accepted. No questions asked.

If your own model with a new owner beat you, and he entered it as his own work - I gotta admit I'd be tempted to go up and help him claim his award.  Ya know raise his arm up like you two won the Tag Team Championship...

[Bugatti Fan]

If I sold a model it would not bother me if it was simply put on display at a model show, but I would still expect to be credited as the actual builder. You can sell a model but the one thing you cannot sell with it is its provenance!

But, as for any buyer of a built up model and entering a contest with it, and claiming it to be their own work is not ethical and would be just plain fraud. In any case, placed in a contest under these circumstances, if it won any award it would just be a hollow victory. I cannot see how any one would get any proper satisfaction from doing this, knowing that they have cheated!

In any model competition circuit, it must be remembered that model makers peers get to recognise a certain modellers style as regular competitors, so a fraudulent entrant runs the risk of being  exposed and ridiculed if entering some one else"s work and claiming it to be their own!

Edited September 11, 2018 by Bugatti Fan
typo

[youpey]

9 hours ago, smhardesty said:

James D and Randy L,

Thank you, thank you, thank you. You get it. Yep, if I built it and sold it, I can't be too ticked off if the new owner enters it in a show and wins. My bad. Lesson learned. Although I might have my hackles raised if he entered it in a show I was in and beat me.

And the comparison to 1:1 show car owners that never turned a wrench is just exactly what I had in mind. They do it. It's accepted. No questions asked.

i was thinking about i would be annoyed until i read your last line. it happens in 1:1 shows all the time. i wouldnt want to give a percentage, but i would imagine many to most cars were done by others. they typically dont have a sign that says completed by miles garage or anything like that. 

it put it in a different light to me. i wouldnt do it though

[StevenGuthmiller]

When you enter a judged model contest, the judges look at individual aspects of the model to determine whether it is worthy of an award.

They look at things like the finish of the paint, level of detail, etc.

This in itself should be an indication that they are judging the skills of the builder and not so much the model itself.

With that in mind, I don't think it's kosher to even farm out one of those aspects to another individual, let alone the whole model.

Someone had mentioned that they might have someone else paint their model for them.

Personally, I don't even think that's right unless you are giving full credit for that aspect to the person who did it.

In my opinion, offering a build at a judged contest that was not entirely created by the builder can only be described as plagiarism!

I agree, once you sell a model, it is the new owner's property to do with what he wants, but entering it into a contest with the intent of winning a trophy for it is pure profanity!

 

Steve

[tbill]

A 1:1 vehicle and a model are not even comparable in this case in my mind as far as shows go. Not everyone can build a 1:1, but almost anyone can build a model, I say this, as a 1:1 takes a lot more skill and knowledge to do, versus a model kit.

having said that, in respect to models, if you didn’t build it, you should not enter it in a judged competition, regardless if you state it was built by so and so, at the most, it should be in a display only area and duly noted as to who built it. 

 

Thats just me, so take it for what it’s worth.

[Ich_Will]

13 hours ago, smhardesty said:

 

And the comparison to 1:1 show car owners that never turned a wrench is just exactly what I had in mind. They do it. It's accepted. No questions asked.

One of the most off-putting things ever about 1:1 car shows. I don't have $20k (or more) to drop on having someone build a show car for me so my hard work and labor won't ever get me anywhere. It's one of the main reasons I sold my 'project' car and daily drive something more 'bland' now. 

[Richard Bartrop]

On the other had, I did make and sell some resin figure kits way back when,  and when I saw one entered at a model show, that actually felt pretty good.

[smhardesty]

59 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

On the other had, I did make and sell some resin figure kits way back when,  and when I saw one entered at a model show, that actually felt pretty good.

Ditto. I'd feel the same way, Richard. I'll never enter one of my builds in any show or contest. It would put a feather in my hat if I sold one to someone else who entered it and it won.

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Richard Bartrop said:

On the other had, I did make and sell some resin figure kits way back when,  and when I saw one entered at a model show, that actually felt pretty good.

 

22 minutes ago, smhardesty said:

Ditto. I'd feel the same way, Richard. I'll never enter one of my builds in any show or contest. It would put a feather in my hat if I sold one to someone else who entered it and it won.

I would feel pretty good too!

If the swine that entered it gave me full credit for doing all of the work & sent me the trophy.

 

Let's look at it this way.

In my opinion, competition should not be for sale.

If I felt that I would like to be an all star quarter back in the NFL, would it be acceptable for me to give Tom Brady 100 million bucks, have him put my name on the back of his jersey & win me a Super Bowl ring?

Endowments should never be offered to the highest bidder.

That's a whole great big can-o-worms we don't want to open.

 

Steve

Edited September 11, 2018 by StevenGuthmiller

[Richard Bartrop]

A little reminder that what I was talking about was a kit that you had to assemble and paint.   This would be like someone at Revell or Modelhaus getting mad because you made a contest entry out of one of their kits.

The guy who bought it was something of a local superstar among the figure modelers, and scratched up some pretty amazing figures of his own,  so just that he thought one of my efforts was worth purchasing was pretty high raise, in my opinion.

[StevenGuthmiller]

36 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

A little reminder that what I was talking about was a kit that you had to assemble and paint.   This would be like someone at Revell or Modelhaus getting mad because you made a contest entry out of one of their kits.

Does it really matter how much work went into it?

It's still your work, not his.

Revell & Modelhaus sell kits to be built by it's consumers.

They are merely products to them.

I guess if you would consider your work as just another product, then it wouldn't be an issue.

I think of my work as a little more personal than that.

 

40 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

The guy who bought it was something of a local superstar among the figure modelers, and scratched up some pretty amazing figures of his own,  so just that he thought one of my efforts was worth purchasing was pretty high raise, in my opinion.

At some point I may decide to sell some builds.

Who knows.

And I would not begrudge anybody making a few bucks on a model.

But I shudder to think that at some point it might be considered okay for some rich snot to buy up a dozen Paul Hettick models, or some other professional builder, for thousands of dollars and start entering them in contests.

I like to think that I am associating with and competing against my "peers" and not the guy with the most money.

 

Steve

[Muncie]

Long ago it was an honor to return a favor from a friend by building a model car that he was going to give to another friend as a birthday gift.  The guy receiving the model and I did not know each other.  Well, walking through the fall antique car show and swap meet...  there it is on the table in the model car contest.  So, I asked the guys at the model contest if they knew anything about it - nope, nothing  - some guy dropped it off, didn't know who built it but thought it was good enough that it should be there on the display.   No credit taken, not competing for a trophy - not the kind of guys  that would take credit for someone else's work anyway.  Through the day everybody met everybody else involved.  It was a good day for all.

 

Maybe another side of this... (and one reason most (all the ones I've run into) model car contests rules require models must be built by the entrant/owner)

         I usually prefer displays to contests.  However, if trophies and awards are involved, I don't want to compete model car against checkbook - I would walk away.

[Richard Bartrop]

28 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Does it really matter how much work went into it?

It's still your work, not his.

Revell & Modelhaus sell kits to be built by it's consumers.

They are merely products to them.

I guess if you would consider your work as just another product, then it wouldn't be an issue.

I think of my work as a little more personal than that.

 

 

I think I put a fair amount of work into it.  All the same, I sold it as a kit that he had to assemble, and he had to paint,  a point that some people seem to have trouble grasping.   This was a product I was selling.  The difference between what I was doing, and what Revell does is purely one of scale.    That in no way means I had no feeling about what I created.  I thought it turned out pretty nice, and thought I'd share.

The folks at Revell have always struck me as pretty passionate about the stuff they make,  and the people behind Modelhaus has always given me the impression it's been a labour of love.

I'm going to toss this out to the resin casters and 3D printers in the group.   Do you feel your work is in any way diminished by the exchange of currency?   Do you lose any sleep over what people do with your wares?

Those of you who do work for the big kitmakers?  Would you be doing what you're doing if there wasn't at least a little bit of passion there?

 

[geewhiz]

It is very unscrupulous to enter a model car built by someone else in a contest and allow others to believe that it is your work of art.  Most contests have a rule stating that the model must be the sole work of the person in who's name its entered.  It just screams deceitfulness to claim otherwise.  If that individual in question does enter someone else's work as their own then one might also presume that those whom are deceitful might just be capable of taking home more models than he brought to the contest.  I've seen it happen and I sure wouldn't think much of him as a fellow modeler or friend.  Just saying, yes, I would be upset and would not believe a word the deceiver utters from that point forward.  Sorry for rambling but deception is wrong on any scale.  Also, full size car owners pretty much always give credit to those who participated in the build.  That's my opinion and that's only my opinion.  Y'all are entitled to yours as well.  It stinks that we can't or won't all be truthful in our dealings no matter what we are doing.  This statement was written by me and is not someone else's work being passed off as my own.  Thanks for listening.  Gregory Birky??

Edited September 11, 2018 by geewhiz

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, Richard Bartrop said:

I think I put a fair amount of work into it.  All the same, I sold it as a kit that he had to assemble, and he had to paint,  a point that some people seem to have trouble grasping.   This was a product I was selling.  The difference between what I was doing, and what Revell does is purely one of scale.    That in no way means I had no feeling about what I created.  I thought it turned out pretty nice, and thought I'd share.

The folks at Revell have always struck me as pretty passionate about the stuff they make,  and the people behind Modelhaus has always given me the impression it's been a labour of love.

I'm going to toss this out to the resin casters and 3D printers in the group.   Do you feel your work is in any way diminished by the exchange of currency?   Do you lose any sleep over what people do with your wares?

Those of you who do work for the big kitmakers?  Would you be doing what you're doing if there wasn't at least a little bit of passion there?

 

Ok.

I guess I was/am confused.

So the individual you sold it to had to paint & assemble the model himself?

I guess that could be a little different.

In that case, he basically bought a modified kit from you.

What did you do to it before sending it to him?

 

I have no doubt that the kit manufacturers take pride in what they do, but when the kits go out the door, they are destined for what they were intended for.......to be built.

The manufacturers have no expectation of any notoriety for the finished product.

But, in that vein, they do receive some of the spotlight at shows.

The shows that I have attended have a slot in the placard placed with every model that states the manufacturer of the kit.

But there are no spaces asking for the entrants name plus the "actual" builder!

 

Steve

[Richard Bartrop]

2 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Ok.

I guess I was/am confused.

So the individual you sold it to had to paint & assemble the model himself?

I guess that could be a little different.

In that case, he basically bought a modified kit from you.

What did you do to it before sending it to him?

 

I made the kit.

I sculpted the master,  made a mould, cast the parts,  packaged them, and made the rounds of the local hobby stores, and some of them put it on their shelves, where some of them were purchased.

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Richard Bartrop said:

I made the kit.

I sculpted the master,  made a mould, cast the parts,  packaged them, and made the rounds of the local hobby stores, and some of them put it on their shelves, where some of them were purchased.

That's completely different than what the OP describes.

I other words, you sold "a kit".

In that case, I would have zero issues with whether or not an individual builds it and enters it in a contest.

No different than any other kit.

 

Steve

[Richard Bartrop]

Exactly.  I only said this three times,  and even qualified it right at the start.

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Richard Bartrop said:

Exactly.  I only said this three times,  and even qualified it right at the start.

Well Richard, I'm sorry that I misunderstood.

This post was originally about "finished" models being sold & entered in contests.

That was where my focus was.

 

Steve