Ace-Garageguy Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) When ever I've worked in CAD we always drew everything full size and it got scaled down at printing, or when you set it into a drawing in "Paper space". Y'all musta had some big monitors. ... there will be few if any actual physical "models" offered, it will all be cyber based. that is the way music has gone and I predict the same for our hobby. it really is a nice elegant solution: no costs for transport, storage or sales space, or even actual manufacturing, only for product design and advertising and supporting artwork. and if the auto companies get in directly on it too, then you will see some really amazing stuff. just watch jb ...and pretty soon, we'll live in a world where nobody has any actual physical skills at all, because everything is designed in virtual space, mostly by machines, and made by other machines. People can become entirely fat, lazy and totally unproductive, and exist solely to be entertained every waking moment. Just watch... Edited June 13, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randx0 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 That's the plot to the movie "WALL-E" . I don't want to ruin how the movie ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djflyer Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I will say again this has the potential for a lot of good things for the hobby, especially if the kit manufacturers get in on it now. 3D printing already does not create solid blocks only - look at the thread on this site, and the Shapeways and TDR Models sites. Very accurate body shells and other parts printed in choice of scale. Home machines are already available to print pieces the size of 24th scale car bodies. Commercial machines can do even more. The choice of accurate kits would be unlimited. Imagine this: you go to the Monogram Pro site, select the car you want - choice of year, body style, standard or custom wheels, any driveline stock or custom. In the scale you want. Its printed, maybe some IM parts or PE details are added, packaged and shipped to your door. No more waiting for the announced release date, no more complaining about the "wrong scale", no more endless threads about when someone will finally do a good Aston Martin or (insert choice). Its still a kit you build yourself - scratchbuild, kit bash, customized and painted as you wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) No more waiting for the announced release date, no more complaining about the "wrong scale", no more endless threads about when someone will finally do a good Aston Martin or (insert choice). Its still a kit you build yourself - scratchbuild, kit bash, customized and painted as you wish. Well, the CAD work will still have to be done first, and done ACCURATELY, or the printed models will suffer from the same maladies that the injection-molded ones often do...mistakes, poorly-measured and incorrectly-represented parts, wrong curves and proportions, etc. The point...in order to have an accurate printed model, you have to have accurate CAD work to start with...and that means somebody has to measure and / or interpret dimensions and shapes of the real vehicle correctly first...just like in injection molding. Edited June 13, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeCee Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Would not give you $10 for those things, i like to build stuff, that is why it's called "modeling", this option is called "buying". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Janssens Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 To me it gets interesting, when they start scanning their back catalog... That way model/toy companies get more bang for their royalty buck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Van Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 That price does not include the plastic to print it or electricity to print it. I think that is overly obvious to almost everyone that has the ability to log onto this site today......... But my last visit to a hobby shop had AMT and Revell kits at $36 - 41.........and 3D coming down in price daily......do the math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) There's no question it's coming, but we're still waiting for good enough print resolution from an "affordable" consumer-level desktop machine large enough to print a 1/24 scale body shell. That's really the only holdup at this point, and it may be a while. As easy as many folks prefer things to be, they're going to want this stuff to be no-effort. The days of simple "select model, press enter to print it" aren't gonna be here any time real soon. And what do modelers consider affordable? $2000 ? $200 ? I still think it makes more sense to deploy commercial-quality printers in hobby shops, and do the printing there. That would eliminate the need for inventory of anything other than the print materials, but still create retail traffic while the tech filters down to the desktop level. Remember the days before everyone had a desktop 2D printer / copier? Yeah, like that. Edited June 13, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djflyer Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 My premise is built around the kit manufacturers still providing the kits. They (already) have the skilled CAD people to create the files and their use of the higher cost/more advanced printers would provide the amortization needed to keep the price down - maybe below current levels. IM tooling still costs alot of money to create and maintain. This idea allows the consumer (us) more options to select the end product we get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my66s55 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) Oooh. My head hurts. Those of you who are not following my 1935 LaSalle wip, should be. I'm not going to go into a lot of detailed corrections of the miss information in this post. Watch for my next post. 1:24th scale body in detail? Try less than 1:24th scale front suspension parts in great detail. Psst. I've done the same 1:18th scale body in 1: 24th or 1:25th with no problem. I'm not going to address any other statements as I don't have enough time. Take it from me. I've been there, done that and doing that. All at home. Edited June 13, 2015 by my66s55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Hall Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 ...... But my last visit to a hobby shop had AMT and Revell kits at $36 - 41....... Sounds like a bad shop..those are at least $10-15 more than my local shop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Oooh. My head hurts. Those of you who are not following my 1935 LaSalle wip, should be. I'm not going to go into a lot of detailed corrections of the miss information in this post. Watch for my next post. 1:24th scale body in detail? Try less than 1:24th scale front suspension parts in great detail. Psst. I've done the same 1:18th scale body in 1: 24th or 1:25th with no problem. I'm not going to address any other statements as I don't have enough time. Take it from me. I've been there, done that and doing that. All at home. You're far from the average modeler. Can your machine be duplicated for $200 ? (I don't mean build it yourself, either).That's what it will take to put them in just a small percentage of home workshops. And you do your own digital modeling, right ? How many modelers are going to learn that ? Many of them don't even understand the concept of "scale". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my66s55 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Correct....I should have said CURRENT cars....as I see manufactures seeing this much like free promos of the 1960's...... But I also see as more and more folks learn the 3D software....costs will come down. Much like the laser machines I own. New they were $60K.....now a more powerful machine is under $2K.......That is a HUGE price change.....so will downloads come down as this end of the hobby grows. Dave,I believe you are exactly right here.The more model car builders are involved, the more it will grow. Forget the model companies. This hobby can grow and evolve through the involvement of those willing to accept and utilize the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Hall Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Dave,I believe you are exactly right here.The more model car builders are involved, the more it will grow. Forget the model companies. This hobby can grow and evolve through the involvement of those willing to accept and utilize the future. Yes, but this will be the younger and more tech savvy modelers..the majority of modelers (on here and elsewhere) seem to be grumpy old technophobes. At my last company we had a Makerbot 3D printer, I printed out a few simple designs...people are printing some pretty elaborate designs w/ them, probably going to get a home one eventually... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Geiger Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 You're far from the average modeler. Can your machine be duplicated for $200 ? (I don't mean build it yourself, either).That's what it will take to put them in just a small percentage of home workshops. And you do your own digital modeling, right ? How many modelers are going to learn that ? Many of them don't even understand the concept of "scale". True. I believe that folks who will have the patience to learn this trade, and it is a trade, will be in numbers, like the guys who own a lathe today. A percentage of the guys we know. And a lot of guys bought lathes and after making a barrel full of aluminum shavings, gave up. They just didn't have the patience to spend the time to learn it. Yes, but this will be the younger and more tech savvy modelers..the majority of modelers (on here and elsewhere) seem to be grumpy old technophobes. At my last company we had a Makerbot 3D printer, I printed out a few simple designs...people are printing some pretty elaborate designs w/ them, probably going to get a home one eventually... And this could be the saving of the hobby. We need younger guys to get involved with model cars. If they get lured in via their computer skills, that's fine with me. The technology exists today. Only it's expensive and can only be justified for high end things like creating medical devices like printing out artificial hearts, replacement teeth, bones, joints and the like. It's all being done today. The question is price. And once that's answered it will be down to the people who wish to acquire the skills to create 3D models and use the printers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my66s55 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) Yes, but this will be the younger and more tech savvy modelers..the majority of modelers (on here and elsewhere) seem to be grumpy old technophobes. At my last company we had a Makerbot 3D printer, I printed out a few simple designs...people are printing some pretty elaborate designs w/ them, probably going to get a home one eventually... So true Rob. Those are the ones I hope to reach out to. Edited June 13, 2015 by my66s55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) ...the majority of modelers (on here and elsewhere) seem to be grumpy old technophobes. Actually, I'm seeing rather a lot of people, both young and older, who are looking forward to the possibilities this tech promises (including me, because I've been watching the industrial development of this stuff for years), but saying it's just around the corner is pretty far off of the mark. People saying the model companies will be printing in-house seem to miss another mark, too. It takes only a few minutes to cycle an injection-molding die to produce one kit. It takes hours of printing to produce one decent frame. Yeah, that's cost effective manufacturing at its best. And being able to text incessantly, scroll through pictures on your iPhone, post useless social crapp on fazebook etc.etc. may qualify even ol' Presbo as "tech savvy", but it just aint. What percentage of modelers actually DO SOMETHING with tech? And I don't mean gaming, socializing and being entertained...or marketing. One more point that's been brought up before...how many modelers today have mills and lathes, even small ones? How many scratch-build ? How many do the actual hard stuff ? My point is that until this tech becomes almost idiot-proof and CHEAP, it's not going to be on many modelers benches. Edited June 13, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my66s55 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 True. I believe that folks who will have the patience to learn this trade, and it is a trade, will be in numbers, like the guys who own a lathe today. A percentage of the guys we know. And a lot of guys bought lathes and after making a barrel full of aluminum shavings, gave up. They just didn't have the patience to spend the time to learn it. And this could be the saving of the hobby. We need younger guys to get involved with model cars. If they get lured in via their computer skills, that's fine with me. The technology exists today. Only it's expensive and can only be justified for high end things like creating medical devices like printing out artificial hearts, re placement teeth, bones, joints and the like. It's all being done today. The question is price. And once that's answered it will be down to the people who wish to acquire the skills to create 3D models and use the printers. You are mostly correct Tom. Imagine this. You have posed the question on a previous thread about the the 59 Plymouth Fury,.Accually it's the sport fury. Can you use the 1958 parts from the AMT Plymouth to create a more detailed build. The answer is yes. I have on my work bench, the correct side panels, seats and seat pattern for the 59 Plymouth using all the body, bumpers and dash from a 59 to create a complete 59 Sport Fury convertible. complete with engine, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my66s55 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Actually, I'm seeing rather a lot of people, both young and older, who are looking forward to the possibilities this tech promises (including me, because I've been watching the industrial development of this stuff for years), but saying it's just around the corner is pretty far off of the mark. People saying the model companies will be printing in-house seem to miss another mark, too. It takes only a few minutes to cycle an injection-molding die to produce one kit. It takes hours of printing to produce one decent frame. Yeah, that's cost effective manufacturing at its best. And being able to text incessantly, scroll through pictures on your iPhone, post useless social crapp on fazebook etc.etc. may qualify even ol' Presbo as "tech savvy", but it just aint. What percentage of modelers actually DO SOMETHING with tech? And I don't mean gaming, socializing and being entertained...or marketing. One more point that's been brought up before...how many modelers today have mills and lathes, even small ones? How many scratch-build ? How many do the actual hard stuff ? My point is that until this tech becomes almost idiot-proof and CHEAP, it's not going to be on many modelers benches. Your problem is that you are watching the industrial development. Wake up. The development of this tech is not thru industry,, it's thru the open source community. Until you realize this, your'll be a step behind. Where do you think I got the info to make and refine my printer? From industry? Think again. Industry is a step behind and as long as you follow them, you'll be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) Your problem is that you are watching the industrial development. Wake up. The development of this tech is not thru industry,, it's thru the open source community. Until you realize this, your'll be a step behind. Where do you think I got the info to make and refine my printer? From industry? Think again. Industry is a step behind and as long as you follow them, you'll be the same. I guess the segment of the industry that's on the verge of printing living replacement organs for humans is "a step behind" then. Nah. I certainly don't deny that individual tinkerers and the "open source community" make a LOT of strides, with little funding. But to write off what's happening among well-funded R&D professionals is just as misguided as missing the point of what you're doing. Nothing is developed in a vacuum, especially these days, and everyone's work is somewhat dependent on the developments made before them, by others...whether garage-geniuses or industrial R&D worker bees. And it will be industry and crass commercialism that puts $200-retail, plug-and-play machines with resolution better than yours on most modelers' workbenches. Edited June 13, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbowser Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 As for the Fords, I would love a '61 Econoline or one of those early Transits. There is some seriously cool stuff there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my66s55 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 You're far from the average modeler. Can your machine be duplicated for $200 ? (I don't mean build it yourself, either).That's what it will take to put them in just a small percentage of home workshops. And you do your own digital modeling, right ? How many modelers are going to learn that ? Many of them don't even understand the concept of "scale". Why do you hold me in such high esteem. Do you really feel that other modelers, not all, couldn't achieve what I have? Not all can achieve it, but some can, and will with the proper encouragement, believe, I can show you a guy on the dlp/sla forum who built a printer for $10.00. You want the link, I'll give it to you. You sit and wait for industry That's not what drives this. It is the open source community. The files to build one of these printers is available to anyone. You just need to know were to find them. I'm not a rocket scientist. I am a 70 year old man wfho keeps up with tech advances. I am an accountant by profession and you can actually check that by googling my name and putting public accountant behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my66s55 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I guess the segment of the industry that's on the verge of printing living replacement organs for humans is "a step behind" then. Nah. I certainly don't deny that individual tinkerers and the "open source community" make a LOT of strides, with little funding. But to write off what's happening among well-funded R&D professionals is just as misguided as missing the point of what you're doing. Nothing is developed in a vacuum, especially these days, and everyone's work is somewhat dependent on the developments made before them, by others...whether garage-geniuses or industrial R&D worker bees. And it will be industry that puts $200-retail, plug-and-play machines with resolution better than yours on most modelers' workbenches. I totally disagree with you. It wasn't industry that brought you all these fdm printers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my66s55 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I guess the segment of the industry that's on the verge of printing living replacement organs for humans is "a step behind" then. Nah. I certainly don't deny that individual tinkerers and the "open source community" make a LOT of strides, with little funding. But to write off what's happening among well-funded R&D professionals is just as misguided as missing the point of what you're doing. Nothing is developed in a vacuum, especially these days, and everyone's work is somewhat dependent on the developments made before them, by others...whether garage-geniuses or industrial R&D worker bees. And it will be industry that puts $200-retail, plug-and-play machines with resolution better than yours on most modelers' workbenches. As far a med tech applies, your are talking a whole different ballgame. As far as dental tech, jewelry tech and many others, I'm right on cue. You are just talking to the wrong guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbwelda Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) >...and pretty soon, we'll live in a world where nobody has any actual physical skills at all, because >everything is designed in virtual space, mostly by machines, and made by other machines. People can >become entirely fat, lazy and totally unproductive, and exist solely to be entertained every waking moment. I suppose that's one way of looking at it, but its a very narrow perspective. not everything has to do with using ones hands; many people in the world get by with using their brains. and that part about fat lazy unproductive...you are 30 years too late on that prediction to the extent that it is true, which it isn't. now if you shop at walmart on any consistent basis...well then you deserve the conclusion, just don't look at yourself in the mirror. a different way of looking at it might be that it is one part of a solution to the problem of way too many people existing on this planet and no sign of relief on the horizon. we may well have to move to the virtual because there will not be raw materials or environmental justifications for continuing to exploit what is left for mere pastimes. that day is rapidly approaching especially as independent countries continue to fight the exploitation of their resources for the benefit of first world people. all this adds up to a necessary path to the future supplanting physical items with cyber equivalents which cost nothing but the space to store them. What you espouse would be equivalent to opposing the coming of vehicles in the early 20th century because they would make the populace fat and lazy, plus think of all the blacksmiths who will be out of work, and never mind the coming of civilian access to personal computers and such a thing as an internet. now if you were to oppose the coming of vehicles based on what you forsaw as the ruin of the world through pollution, highway construction, and unhealthy reliance on far away unstable regions for its very lifeblood, you might be on to something. its too late, dude, the future is fast upon us and standing around complaining about how everyone is fat and lazy doesn't really do much good. its far better to adapt and take what you can from new technology, we aint got that much longer to enjoy it anyhow. life is going to be very different 50 years from now in many many ways, most from necessity for survival, and I think there is a good chance most of our "civilization" will be negated in the next 100 years as a fight for mere survival becomes increasingly necessary. one other thing: someone has to make the machines that make the machines. and someone had to use their brain to design those machines. that part will not go away and that's the part the smart people identify and train to fulfill. jb Edited June 13, 2015 by jbwelda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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