Build it, and they will come. The future of our hobby.

[Tom Geiger]

The "PROMOS" started out as toys, but the models were replicas just like ship and airplane models. I don't "play" with my models after I build them, and I don't know of anybody who does.

If 3D printing is the "next step," what's next after that? Having a robot build our kits for us? That doesn't sound like any fun at all.

Model cars are TOYS.   Go to eBay and you click on the "TOYS and Hobbies" section.   At Amazon they are found under "TOYS and Games".  In Walmart they are in the TOY aisle.   It's not a problem, we technically are toy builder and collectors. 

3D printing  and having a robot build kits for us...  may not be fun for you, but that may be grand fun for the next generation!  And may be what "saves" the hobby in the long run. 

[SfanGoch]

If 3D printing is the "next step," what's next after that? Having a robot build our kits for us? That doesn't sound like any fun at all.

When 3D printing reaches the quality of injection molded parts, it'll be a boon to the hobby. There won't be any more "I wish that ____ would make a model of a _____" threads. You'll be able to print a copy of whatever "wish list" kit you want yourself, either as a fully assembled model or as a kit. It won't be ny different than buying a promo or a build-it-yourself model. You'll be in complete control of the level of detail, too. There will be no need to be dependent on the whims of model companies.

Model cars are TOYS.   Go to eBay and you click on the "TOYS and Hobbies" section.   At Amazon they are found under "TOYS and Games".  In Walmart they are in the TOY aisle.   It's not a problem, we technically are toy builder and collectors. 

That's absolutely true. It's just that we don't want to admit that.  

[Tom Geiger]

Now let's talk about the sure fire way to insure that this hobby dies with us!  Make sure this aging herd keeps opening their mouths with their prejudices against anything that's not what they build or collect.  Yea, let's be sure to run off anyone younger than us who may want to build modern subjects and (gasp!) tuners!

There are a lot of model car builders that are younger than us.  We just choose to exclude them from our  events, and chase them off with glee!  And then we start threads about attracting younger people?   Anyone else see the irony here?

In New Jersey there is a club of younger guys who are into tuners and modern subjects called "Diversified Scalers".  They approached us at NNL East about five years ago and asked why we didn't have a modern category.  They noted when we had "Modern Muscle" as a theme, we filled the tables.  So it made a lot of sense to us.  We all talk about welcoming and attracting younger people, and here was our chance to prove it!  We made a deal with these guys.. we'll create the category (the first time we've nearly EVER added a category) and they had to promote it amongst their peers and fill the tables.  Done!   

They started a show, and this fall will be the 5th annual.  They have promoted it well at all the local shows and the Internet, so a lot of our clan is now attending.  What I like about their show, is we get to meet a lot of younger guys we've never seen before, and some very accomplished builders.  Last year I made sure to introduce myself to them, and give them some NNL East swag and the show postcard.  So we applaud their efforts and will do everything we can to help  them.

This is a way to grow the hobby and invite in younger people.  Find people who do already have an interest in cars and models, and help them expand their hobby. 

[Xingu]

If 3D printing is the "next step," what's next after that? Having a robot build our kits for us? That doesn't sound like any fun at all.

When I learn how to 3D print, I will create the parts (leave them rough so they need trimming), seal them in plastic, put the sealed bags in a small cardboard box, print off some generic assembly instructions, maybe include some decals and them sell them.

Sounds like what is being done now. Only one step is different.

[Ace-Garageguy]

 Kids will get involved, we will have to pay them to program our parts.

Why? It's really not all that hard to learn new skills, and it keeps your brain young and active. 

[SfanGoch]

For authenticity and to impart that vintage, old-timey feel, you can model some flash and sink holes on the parts. 

Edited June 4, 2016 by SfanGoch

[MrBuick]

Ah, the age-old "if I don't like it, it must be bad" argument. Sure, there may be less young people into the hobby these days than when the older generation here was young...but, there are also more choices of hobbies and entertainment for kids these days than building a model or playing with a stick'n'hoop. But, that doesn't mean there are no young people building models, AND, just because some people aren't into certain materials, doesn't mean others aren't, no matter the age. For instance, the types of cars I enjoy are much different than most people I know who are my age (late 20's). I couldn't care less about new Corvette's, Camaro's, Mustangs, Lambo's, etc...sure, they're technical marvels, faster, more comfortable, etc, but to me they're also boring. However, I know several people my Grandpa's age who have completely lost interest in classic's and are all about the new...when they tag along to car shows with my Grandpa and me they don't look twice and the stuff I like, and almost drool over the newer stuff I don't care for. It has little to do with age, and more to do with personal preference. Further proof of that is, the very first local model show I went to had an admittedly small amount of lowriders, donks, and new-model builds...but, NONE of them were built by anyone younger than probably mid-late 50's, so the market for those kits obviously goes well beyond the seemingly popular-to-hate millennial and generation y aged builders. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

 Kids will get involved, we will have to pay them to program our parts.

Why? It's really not all that hard to learn new skills, and it keeps your brain young and active. 

[Tom Geiger]

When 3D printing reaches the quality of injection molded parts, it'll be a boon to the hobby. There won't be any more "I wish that ____ would make a model of a _____" threads. You'll be able to print a copy of whatever "wish list" kit you want yourself, either as a fully assembled model or as a kit. It won't be ny different than buying a promo or a build-it-yourself model. You'll be in complete control of the level of detail, too. There will be no need to be dependent on the whims of model companies.

We focus on the 3D  PRINTING, but remember to get to that part, someone needs to create those parts in a CAD program... and that's called 3D MODELING.  So indeed people will be modeling, only using a completely different tool set than we have in the past.  Right now we are seeing guys who do 3D CAD work as a profession in industry.  Their skills transfer pretty quickly to creating model car parts.  There is a huge learning curve to becoming accomplished in this new craft.  Not unlike the years of practice it's taken us to become accomplished modelers.   

This will scare off a lot of people, who will think they can sit down and instantly create entire model kits from their printer.  Not unlike those who use a lathe in modeling today. A lot of guys bought lathes,  made some big piles of metal shavings and gave up.  Same thing.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Model cars are TOYS.   Go to eBay and you click on the "TOYS and Hobbies" section.   At Amazon they are found under "TOYS and Games".  In Walmart they are in the TOY aisle.   It's not a problem, we technically are toy builder and collectors. 

3D printing  and having a robot build kits for us...  may not be fun for you, but that may be grand fun for the next generation!  And may be what "saves" the hobby in the long run.

Sorry, I'm not ever going to accept your definition of scale-models as "toys" even if Ebay lists them as such. Ebay is hardly the final arbiter for word usage...at least in my way of looking at things.

There's a world of difference between "scale models" and "toys". 

Toys are made for children with little regard for scale accuracy, are expected to be played with, usually somewhat mindlessly, and often look very little like anything that could function in big-boy-land.

I don't know about the rest of you, or care to drive MY definitions down your throats, but I build scale-models of real vehicles that I would build in reality if I had unlimited time and funds, or aircraft and other machines I find particularly interesting in reality...but could never reasonably aspire to own.

For that reason, I expect manufacturers to get the dimensions of the "scale-models" they're selling pretty damm close to right, and not all wonky, warped and goofy...which would be perfectly acceptable for "toys". Sometimes it seems like I'm in the minority with that, at least on the model car forums. So be it.

I kind of rail against the use of the word "toys" to describe real vehicles too. Anyone else can call them what they will. 

I've also never been able to understand the foot-dragging that goes with any kind of change. I personally see tuners as a logical extension of the original hot-rod movement, and I'm glad there are still younger people who see a real car as a canvas to explore their own engineering and visual creativity. 

The only thing that bothers ME is when builders of models OR real cars have zero regard for the actual function of what they're doing. Massive negative camber that destroys tires instantly and huge unsprung weight and stupidly high centers-of gravity as a result of donk wheels turn me off NOT BECAUSE THEY'RE DIFFERENT, but because they just don't work...like toys.

3D printing is already making significant inroads into availability of unusual subject matter. It's here, it's getting cheaper all the time, and easier too. And it ain't rocket science.

But choo know...debating a lot of this stuff just seems like a total waste of time.

And of course, I guess you can define ANYTHING that's done purely for enjoyment as "playing with toys" if you so desire. 

But to me the hobby of building "scale models" ...or full-scale cars... is fundamentally different from "playing with toys". 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[SfanGoch]

You have a point, Tom. Although, as is the case now, there are people who do create CAD files for various model-related items. People like these can do the same with complete kits and offer the files for sale to the individual. Then, that person can print his kit or completed model.

Here's something very cool and interesting:

TOPIC: MY 2ND & MOST IMPRESSIVE "3D PRINTED" MODEL CAR, THE 1927 MILLER 91.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Pretty spectacular. 

But I'm not understanding WHY the whole 3D thing is seen as the province of specialists and only younger people.

A guy in my club who's 70+ has been building his own 3D printers and constantly refining them for years. He taught himself the techniques involved with going from a photograph, drawing, or even in one case, images captured from a video game, to code that's understood by printers.

His 1/24 scale output now is on a par with injection-molded parts...period.

It's HERE. And just like it takes the expenditure of time and effort to get to the point where you can do consistently good paint, all it takes to make 3D printing accessible to anyone now is effort.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[MrObsessive]

I personally look forward to 3D printing making HUGE inroads in the arena of car modeling! Say what you will, but technology waits for no one, and sooner or later one has to adapt or just get left behind. I work with a woman who's a little older than I (60 or 61), and she prides herself in the fact that she has no need for a smartphone and uses her computer only for email. 

I had to tell her that while that may work for her in the short run------it's just a matter of time before she'll be missing out on a whole lot because she WON'T embrace technology. Like it or not, that's the way of the world, and time marches on.

Getting back to younger folks and what they're in to..........I have nothing against tuners in the least, and I see them now as the "new muscle cars" of today. Some may sniff at that, but is it any different than what guys my age (mid 50's) did with '69 Chevelles, Chargers, 442's, Coronets, GTO's etc.............back in the mid/late '70's?? Sure the cars have changed, but as long as there are young folks interested in cars, there will be those that will want to spin a tire. Front, rear or all fours.

As far as 3D printers go, it's one of the things I'd like to have next in my modeling arsenal. Sure there's a learning curve, but then there was a learning curve for me when it came time to learn airbrushing, opening doors, modifying body panels and so on. It's a real fact that many who we know in our circle who make parts for us won't be around in the years to come. This is not to sound macabre, but it's a fact of life that as they say "All good things must come to an end". 

It would be nice to make a part simply created out of my own mind, or by downloading a file, and have it come out in literally............well 3D.

Edited June 4, 2016 by MrObsessive

[MrObsessive]

 

 

Now THAT is something else!!

[Richard Bartrop]

 

We focus on the 3D  PRINTING, but remember to get to that part, someone needs to create those parts in a CAD program... and that's called 3D MODELING.  So indeed people will be modeling, only using a completely different tool set than we have in the past.  Right now we are seeing guys who do 3D CAD work as a profession in industry.  Their skills transfer pretty quickly to creating model car parts.  There is a huge learning curve to becoming accomplished in this new craft.  Not unlike the years of practice it's taken us to become accomplished modelers.   

This will scare off a lot of people, who will think they can sit down and instantly create entire model kits from their printer.  Not unlike those who use a lathe in modeling today. A lot of guys bought lathes,  made some big piles of metal shavings and gave up.  Same thing.

Thanks, I was just about the make the same point about lathes.  Yes, machines can make things easier, but you still have to know how to use them.  However making the computer models that tell the printer what to do is a learnable skill, just like all the other skills we learned to make models.   Making new characters and environments for computer games is already a thriving hobby, and some people get great enjoyment and satisfaction just rendering images of their computer models.

3d printing is a great thing for the hobby.   In the short term, if it lowers the cost of making a set of molds, that means some of the less popular subjects might actually turn a profit.   For the modeler, it means scratchbuilding the subject they desire is a little easier, and is maybe within the realm of possibility now.  It's just the thing for the apartment dweller, or anyone else for whom having a full workshiop just isn't an option.   If you spent a lot of time traveling, and can't bring a lot of stuff with you, you can still do some theraputic modelling on your laptop.

As for robots putting it together for you,  you can already buy premade models.

 

As far as tuners go, to me, they're no different from the people who souped up Model Ts and As back in the day.  They're probably closer in spirit to the early days of hot rodding than any traditional rodder today.

 

Edited June 4, 2016 by Richard Bartrop

[keyser]

Pretty spectacular. 

But I'm not understanding WHY the whole 3D thing is seen as the province of specialists and only younger people.

A guy in my club who's 70+ has been building his own 3D printers and constantly refining them for years. He taught himself the techniques involved with going from a photograph, drawing, or even in one case, images captured from a video game, to code that's understood by printers.

His 1/24 scale output now is on a par with injection-molded parts...period.

It's HERE. And just like it takes the expenditure of time and effort to get to the point where you can do consistently good paint, all it takes to make 3D printing accessible to anyone now is effort.

That Miller is killer. 

Hard to convince people who consider smart phones and video games (some of the most amazing computer modeling of cars out there, see Forza 6) as evil incarnate to accept something new, alone learn it.

The enmity against the new, the people that demand better, the "youth" is pretty appalling around here sometimes. There are few younger participants here, and truly miniscule international participants, despite pretty amazing communities worldwide. I've been on an exotic car board since 2003, 10k posts, and it has huge cross-generational, international participation, and a surprisingly small owner percentage. Just enthusiasts. Actually a great model subforum, a few guys here are over there too. Technology is embraced there, and on the couple Asian and European boards I've visited. 

Ali said it best, RIP Champ. Amazing role model and human.  

[Richard Bartrop]

 

A guy in my club who's 70+ has been building his own 3D printers and constantly refining them for years. He taught himself the techniques involved with going from a photograph, drawing, or even in one case, images captured from a video game, to code that's understood by printers.

His 1/24 scale output now is on a par with injection-molded parts...period.

Good for him!

Too me, there are few things sadder than someone who's decided the world has nothing more to teach him.

[Tom Geiger]

 

Hard to convince people who consider smart phones and video games (some of the most amazing computer modeling of cars out there, see Forza 6) as evil incarnate to accept something new, alone learn it.

The enmity against the new, the people that demand better, the "youth" is pretty appalling around here sometimes. There are few younger participants here, and truly miniscule international participants, despite pretty amazing communities worldwide. I've been on an exotic car board since 2003, 10k posts, and it has huge cross-generational, international participation, and a surprisingly small owner percentage. Just enthusiasts. Actually a great model subforum, a few guys here are over there too. Technology is embraced there, and on the couple Asian and European boards I've visited. 

In my experience the people who say things like  "I get along just fine without a computer or cell phone"  to those who get visibly mad when they tell you this technology is "PURE EVIL"   are pretty much jealous and afraid to try because they fear that they will be the one person who fails to learn it.  In many cases once they get past all the bull, and sit down and learn the technology, they become avid users!

The one thing that is wrong with this country is AMERICANS!  They don't listen, they don't read or take advise.  They expect instant everything.  Here's a little story of my past few weeks...

I am involved in a major business software deployment.  We went live Sunday May 22nd at 12am, so it would be available for the start of business on Monday in Europe... so the system is now live and it's 2am (8am in Europe where workday starts at 7am)...  no phone calls on our helpline, no emails or panic... we thought the system must not be live, but we look and see people across Europe signed in and work orders and purchase requisitions rolling off it. Our system admin in France calls to say hello at 3am and that all is well...  Success!

Then 7am rolled around and bedlam ensued!  System went live in the USA.  Phone lines lit up, emails start rolling in and people are IMing us and calling our cell phones!  Over 50 calls the first hour.   Silly questions like  "What is my user name?"  "What is my password?"   "No I never put in a request for access but why can't I log in?"  "What training?  What do you mean I need to take training to get access?"   "Where is (the old system)? I didn't know we changed it"

Each of these individuals received a dozen emails in the previous 60 day enrollment period that outlined everything they are asking. Two weeks into it and we still are triaging issues with getting people signed up correctly, completing the required on-line training classes and getting them working.  But only in the US.

We go live in China  on June 15th.  Everyone is signed up and has already completed their training.  The entire plant!

There's a moral here somewhere.

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2016 by Tom Geiger

[highway]

I have also watched the years go by, hoping that my nephews would take interest in the hobby. Bought them a kit. Nothing became of it. One even had it, unbuilt in the box, at his mom's yard sale years later. But then again, I didn't offer to help, either. The parents didn't help. They were too busy running errands in their Maytag Minivan.

This may be part of the issue of why there are less young people in the hobby, they may have an interest in the hobby but would like to also use it as a way to spend time with either parents or grandparents or at least have them help them with it. I know when I got introduced to this hobby over 30 years ago, my older brother had built a few models, and my dad also had an original Revell USS Constitution that he did a little on when he wasn't doing something in his woodwork shop. I wanted a model, so I got the original 1/16th scale General Lee that dad helped me on, and was hooked ever since. Honestly, I think it's more of just exposing the younger generation to the hobby instead of trying to cram it down their throats and make them have this as a hobby, but most of the posts I've read in this thread seem to me to all say the same thing:

Kids can build models of cars, tanks, airplanes, or the hobby may end up as....

When is this going to be released?? Is there going to be a matching dryer to go with it?? 

[SfanGoch]

I personally look forward to 3D printing making HUGE inroads in the arena of car modeling! Say what you will, but technology waits for no one, and sooner or later one has to adapt or just get left behind. I work with a woman who's a little older than I (60 or 61), and she prides herself in the fact that she has no need for a smartphone and uses her computer only for email. 

I had to tell her that while that may work for her in the short run------it's just a matter of time before she'll be missing out on a whole lot because she WON'T embrace technology. Like it or not, that's the way of the world, and time marches on.

Getting back to younger folks and what they're in to..........I have nothing against tuners in the least, and I see them now as the "new muscle cars" of today. Some may sniff at that, but is it any different than what guys my age (mid 50's) did with '69 Chevelles, Chargers, 442's, Coronets, GTO's etc.............back in the mid/late '70's?? Sure the cars have changed, but as long as there are young folks interested in cars, there will be those that will want to spin a tire. Front, rear or all fours.

As far as 3D printers go, it's one of the things I'd like to have next in my modeling arsenal. Sure there's a learning curve, but then there was a learning curve for me when it came time to learn airbrushing, opening doors, modifying body panels and so on. It's a real fact that many who we know in our circle who make parts for us won't be around in the years to come. This is not to sound macabre, but it's a fact of life that as they say "All good things must come to an end". 

It would be nice to make a part simply created out of my own mind, or by downloading a file, and have it come out in literally............well 3D.

I previously posted this link. Norbert has live people dress in historically accurate clothing and equipment; then, he laser scans them to produce the files. This can be done using 1:1 cars to obtain the exact dimensions, contours and shapes much more accurately than taking physical measurements and using a pantograph to scale down a drawing which probably contains dimensional errors. Using the laser scanning technique, you'd end up with a dimensionally perfect representation. 

1/72 scale figures on a one cent coin

Check out the detail. It doesn't get better than this. He uses a 3D jewelry printer.

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

Check out the detail. It doesn't get better than this. He uses a 3D jewelry printer.

Yup, it's here.    

[SfanGoch]

Yup, it's here.    

Imagine being able to scan all those cars on people's wish lists and have them printable on demand. No more selling the kids or internal organs in order to obtain that overpriced, long OOP Holy Grail kit. It'd put every seller on eBay out of business.  

[Richard Bartrop]

Imagine being able to scan all those cars on people's wish lists and have them printable on demand. No more selling the kids or internal organs in order to obtain that overpriced, long OOP Holy Grail kit. It'd put every seller on eBay out of business.  

Oh, I'm sure there will be people making noises about "authenticity" and "real modeling" to justify their trade, but this is a future I can look forward to.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Richard Bartrop

[MrObsessive]

1/72 scale figures on a one cent coin

UNBELIEVABLE! Someone not in the know would swear that was Photoshopped with the people all grayed out! 

THAT is very impressive!

BTW, I do have a 3D printed model body I got off eBay a while back. It's a '55 D-Type Jag that came as a package deal with the ROG '57 Jaguar XK-SS. Except for the somewhat rough texture the dimensions are EXACTLY right!

As you mentioned, some of our much wanted wish lists as far as models could be answered........no more "hoping" for this and that.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Only little insect in the ointment is the fact that for a full-detail kit, the chassis, engine, and suspension bits would need to be scanned with the body off, or the engine/trans removed...or something along those lines. 

The tech doesn't exist quite yet to cost-effectively scan ALL the parts individually with a vehicle assembled.

Laser-scanning is a line-of-sight process, so keep that in mind.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy