Something I noticed today MPC 72 GTO

[SCRWDRVR]

Hi All, I started prepping the MPC 72 GTO kit to paint today and figured I was in for some work since I've seen several posts about how bad of a kit it was but I figured I'd give it a shot. While prepping everything I noticed this kit doesn't have outside mirrors ? I think this is the first kit I can recall (although I'm sure there is more) that didn't have them

 

[Tom Geiger]

A lot of kits from that era were missing things like mirrors, master cylinders and other bits.  That's just the way the industry was back in 1972, as the consumers were mainly young boys.

If you want to put mirrors on the car, check in other GM cars of that era and you may find the correct ones. GM shared things like this between different makes.  I had a pair of headrests for a 1:1 1969 GTO and the guy who bought them from me got them for his Buick, same parts!   

[Dragonhawk1066]

Ha! I gave mine the once over after I bought it , but didn't notice that. Thanks for the info, I will have to remember that when I hopefully get to it later this year.

[StevenGuthmiller]

That's very common with older kits.

There are plenty of newer kits that contain no outside mirrors as well.

Just off of the top of my head, the new tool AMT '67 Impala and the AMT '62 Catalina are both without mirrors.

I'm certain there are many more that have been produced in the past 25 or 30 years.

 

 

 

Steve

Edited April 24, 2020 by StevenGuthmiller

[SCRWDRVR]

Hmmmm guess I just never noticed before, since I got back into building I have been a little more picky and pay a bit more attention to detail. I guess that's why I noticed now...

[Dave Van]

Yep....most kits of the era  do not have mirrors. Why I bought a bunch when R&D made nice ones.

[Snake45]

I don't think I saw a model car with outside mirrors until the '80s sometime. 

To this day I don't worry about adding them, as they're prone to getting getting knocked or broken off anyway, leaving a stub, a hole, or a glue booger in the paint. 

[unclescott58]

Again l agree with Snake. Outside mirrors are just something to get knocked off a model. No matter how hard one try's to avoid it (I can hear Harry spinning in his grave). If the model forces you, by hole or indentation to mount a mirror, I'll then do it. Heck real cars were not even required by law in the U.S. to have a outside mirror until 1967. And then, they required on the left side only. Many cars before that were sold new without an outside mirrors. But, by 1972, that of course was a different story. A '72 Goat should have at least one left side manual chrome door mirror as standard. A single chrome remote driver's mirror, or dual sport mirrors (with the driver's side remote) were optional. And yet knowing all of this, my MPC '72 GTO does not have any outside mirrors. Nor why it's in my possession will it. I think it looks just fine with out it. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

If we are gauging whether or not a mirror should be added to a build or not by the possibility of it getting knocked off at some point, then what's the point of adding hood ornaments, exhaust tips, or wheels for that matter?

It's just as easy to knock off a tail light bezel or a fender ornament.

It's the nature of the beast that a model is a very fragile thing that must be handled with the utmost care.

 

Radio antennas are another item that are much more easily knocked off than a mirror, but if the model has a radio in the dash, it should have an antenna in my view.

 

I realize that not everyone may be as anal about details as others, but I feel like there are certain things that are necessary to bring a level of realism to the model.

Not every tiny detail is necessary or even practical in many cases, but there are the basics that I feel need to be represented.

 

This kind of detail attention is on par with a radiator with no hoses or an engine equipped with an automatic transmission with a stick shift and a clutch pedal in the interior.

Things that I feel need addressing.

 

I always add at least one mirror, and in most cases a radio antenna, to every build, even if I have to make my own.

 

Pinning is a relatively easy way to ensure that these items will not be easily knocked off of the model.

Granted, it's more work, but it's well worth the effort in my opinion.

 

Likewise, proper storage in some form of protective case and careful handling are a requirement if your finished models are going to remain in top shape for many years to come.

 

This is just my opinion on the matter.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

[unclescott58]

Steve, most of us are not as detailed oriented as you are. And that's fine. That's why your model are superior to most others I've seen. As you know, I've seen your models in person. And I'm always blown away by the work you do. I always think about the rear deck emblem on the trunk of your '61 Buick. Wow! But, several of us don't have the patience or talent to do that kind of work. I wish I did. And I'm glad you do. At the same time the way others of us build models is okay too.

I've personally had troubles with both mirrors and antennas. And I'm very much okay if a kit doesn't come with them. Presently I'm working on JoHan's '35 Mercedes 500K coupe. Talk about a lot of little details that could break off later. At the same, I'm adding all of those little details with the greatest care I can. In the end, it will not only have an exterior driver's side mirror. But, a passenger side one too. 

[SCRWDRVR]

All this time I thought I was just not putting them on, I know some of my older kits do have them. I have a 69 Cougar from my youth that had mirrors on it but the ones that don't I don't know if they came with them or not.

Steve your work for sure is far better than mine and I can see why it is, your attention to detail is incredible. I will say seeing completed kits from people like you is what drives me to improve on my detail, I thank you. I am realistic though and know I don't have the patience to make anything like you do...

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 4/25/2020 at 7:45 PM, unclescott58 said:

  At the same time the way others of us build models is okay too.

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Absolutely Scott!

I really have no issues with how anyone prefers to finish their builds.

I guess that I just felt that I needed to say something because I just don't feel that the possibility that something might get broken off of a build 10 years from now is much of an excuse not to add it.

There may be many other good reasons not to do it, but I don't think that's one of them.

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

[Bills72sj]

  On 4/25/2020 at 1:21 AM, Snake45 said:

I don't think I saw a model car with outside mirrors until the '80s sometime. 

To this day I don't worry about adding them, as they're prone to getting getting knocked or broken off anyway, leaving a stub, a hole, or a glue booger in the paint. 

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My sentiments exactly. I purposely leave mirrors off just for that reason. I actually have a little baggie full of mirrors.

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 4/26/2020 at 4:10 AM, Bills72sj said:

My sentiments exactly. I purposely leave mirrors off just for that reason. I actually have a little baggie full of mirrors.

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I'll take whatever you don't want.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[peteski]

  On 4/25/2020 at 1:54 PM, unclescott58 said:

Again l agree with Snake. Outside mirrors are just something to get knocked off a model. No matter how hard one try's to avoid it (I can hear Harry spinning in his grave).

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Kits of more modern cars usually include door mirrors, but they are much sturdier than the old spindly ones.

[unclescott58]

  On 4/26/2020 at 5:29 AM, peteski said:

Kits of more modern cars usually include door mirrors, but they are much sturdier than the old spindly ones.

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Nice Merc. Who makes that? And your right about mirrors on modern cars. And trucks. 

[espo]

  On 4/26/2020 at 5:29 AM, peteski said:

Kits of more modern cars usually include door mirrors, but they are much sturdier than the old spindly ones.

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First off, that is a great looking MB. You make a very good point on the newer kits having mirrors. The Automotive design of today the Mirrors are major part of the overall design of the car. They are made to blend in to the body or A post of the roof for reduced air flow to cut wind drag and also noise. The first mirrors on cars were a very spindly design and didn't do anything for the overall appearance of the car. 

[Snake45]

  On 4/26/2020 at 4:46 PM, espo said:

First off, that is a great looking MB. You make a very good point on the newer kits having mirrors. The Automotive design of today the Mirrors are major part of the overall design of the car. They are made to blend in to the body or A post of the roof for reduced air flow to cut wind drag and also noise. The first mirrors on cars were a very spindly design and didn't do anything for the overall appearance of the car. 

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Exactly so. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 4/26/2020 at 4:46 PM, espo said:

The first mirrors on cars were a very spindly design and didn't do anything for the overall appearance of the car. 

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Oh I don't know about that.

Some mirrors from the 50s and 60s were pretty stylish for their time.

 

 

 

I could make the same argument about most modern mirrors.

Just because their integrated into the body doesn't necessarily add anything style wise to the design.

Most are just painted oval blobs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

 

[peteski]

  On 4/26/2020 at 1:02 PM, unclescott58 said:

Nice Merc. Who makes that? And your right about mirrors on modern cars. And trucks. 

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Thanks!  I built it several years ago.  It is an Protar Mercedes S600. Very basic curbside kit.  I did modify some things and add few details to it. It builds up nicely, and I don't really recall having any problems putting it together.  I should post more photos of this model in Under Glass section.  I like unusual models, and models of 4-door sedans are rarer than hen's teeth. Plus, it is an attractive looking car.

More info about the kit's lineage: https://www.scalemates.com/kits/protar-18455-mercedes-benz-s-600--153935

And as far as the door mirrors go, which ones are attractive is really in the eye of the beholder.  I like some of both, old and new designs.  The spindly chromy ones look good on '50s and '60s cars, and the swoop fluid "blobs" seem to compliment the streamlined bodies of today's cars.  Of course there are also some ugly examples, both on the old cars and on current cars.

I just wanted to make a point that not all the kits are lacking mirrors, and that the more modern cars have much sturdier mirrors than the spindly '60s versions.

Edited April 29, 2020 by peteski

[Oldcarfan27]

Mirrors are one of those small details that are the most obvious when done well, but detract if done wrong. 

Mostly, installing them so they are the correct ones for the car, in the right place on the door, with the right angle and no glue slop holding it on (which makes it easier to fall off).

Tall order to be sure, in fact the whole ordeal gives me hives just thinking about all that.

Using pins to hold them in place helps, but I've had them still break off because they're so small. And if they're the tiny chrome round mirrors from the 60s, they're even too miniscule to get a pin inside them at all.

I wonder if anybody has ever cast white metal copies with the pin included, with fine detail as well?

Might be a great cottage industry product in and of itself. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 4/27/2020 at 12:33 AM, Oldcarfan27 said:

And if they're the tiny chrome round mirrors from the 60s, they're even too miniscule to get a pin inside them at all.

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You can pin nearly anything if you're tenacious enough.

I pinned the Fireball Modelworks door handles on my '68 Olds, and they don't get a lot more minuscule than that.

 

 

 

 

Pinning not only helps make an item stronger, it helps a great deal with attaching the part!

It's immensely easier to locate and glue the part without glue slop or the part sliding around on you while you wait for the glue to set.

 

The part can also be inserted and glued from the inside of the body if preferred eliminating any potential glue mess whatsoever.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

 

[Snake45]

  On 4/27/2020 at 12:33 AM, Oldcarfan27 said:

I wonder if anybody has ever cast white metal copies with the pin included, with fine detail as well?

Might be a great cottage industry product in and of itself. 

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Now see, if someone made that, I might get interested in adding them to my projects. 

MIGHT. 

[espo]

  On 4/26/2020 at 6:55 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

Oh I don't know about that.

Some mirrors from the 50s and 60s were pretty stylish for their time.

 

 

 

I could make the same argument about most modern mirrors.

Just because their integrated into the body doesn't necessarily add anything style wise to the design.

Most are just painted oval blobs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

 

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The mirrors in your pictures make a very good point on both thoughts. The two bottom pictures show mirrors that have above average styling elements to them but they also offer a source of wind noise that can be heard inside the vehicle. At that time I don't think that was as an important consideration as today. The top picture is really special in that this was an extra cost option that also included a forward facing spot light. This is a little unusual as it is manually controlled by reaching out the window and use of the handle on the bottom edge of the mirror that would also make it easier to adjust than the other two. But again while the style of the day they're still on the spindly stands that and wound disrupt both the air flow and the body lines of the car. This was about the same time that hood ornaments started to disappear and in the late '60's we had radio antennas in our windshields. This helped with the wind noise issue as well as distraction from the flow of the body lines. For myself I rather prefer the power adjustable mirrors of today.