Primer to avoid

[El Roberto]

I've never had any problems with the Tamiya primers.  They go down super smooth and even and stand up to anything I spray over them. 

 

 

[oldscool]

  On 8/11/2020 at 1:16 PM, randyc said:

Good post, good points.   I don't ever intentionally put on a heavy first coat.   And as soon as I saw what was happening, I stopped.   Like you I have had a systematic approach and think that I inadvertently used the wrong product from what I am used to.  THis is NOT my normal primer, but I wasn't thinking at the time.  LESSON LEARNED.  

This primer might have worked had I realized it was different and I had taken a different approach to it.  I'm glad you guys are contributing to this discussion so everyone can improve from the mistakes of others.   

When I run out of my existing primer, I will definitely be coming back here to help make my next decision.   I noticed at Lowes last night that they don't have the 2x Rusto.  They do have a few duplicolor branded primers.   I guess WalMart is the place for 2x?   I haven't been there since before the Covid thing and don't want to go to the local one because people in our area are idiots and don't think the virus is real; therefore they don't wear masks, social distance etc.   Gives me the heebie jeebies.  Lowes is only better due to reduced volume of customers.  

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You can get the 2X primer and other colors at AutoZone. Like you, I avoid Walmart if possible.

[oldscool]

Be careful of that "bargain" Miracal paint. I bought two cans a few years ago and the spray cans are so cheap that I didn't use half of what was in the can before it stopped spraying.

Edited August 13, 2020 by oldscool

[randyc]

  On 8/13/2020 at 11:05 AM, oldscool said:

Be careful of that "bargain" Miracal paint. I bought two cans a few years ago and the spray cans are so cheap that I didn't use half of what was in the can before the it stopped spraying.

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Will do.   But the last can I bought I used all of so that's one thing.  And since DG is like 2 miles away and we go regularly for other household stuff, I figure no more than a can at a time on hand will work.

I had to look - I don't think I posted here, but when I was sanding Monday evening, the paint seemed to still be soft, so I tested and it would scrape off still.   So into the purple pond.  Tuesday when I came in, 98% of the primer and paint came off with a good brushing.    I can see a bit of texture - when I get back to it, will inspect more closely and sand as necessary then hopefully prime again Saturday with different primer.  

BUT... Back to the Miracal from DG.   When I cleaned the bodies, the primer and painted chassis came clean EXCEPT part of the hood of the ss396  where I had some of the Miracal overspray.    The purple pond did NOT touch that, but the primer came right off over top of it.  I'm going to look into that more closely.  Could the Miracal be a miracle for priming/sealing?  Have to check if it affected the surface at all.  DG has like black and whites on the shelf.  I have a revellogram 67 vette molded in red.  Might be a good test subject for the qualities of the miracal.   I painted all the black trees from the GT4 and the parts from the SS396 that needed to be black with the miracal already.  Went back and resprayed the frame and some other parts with a shinier black for contrast later.  

So I'll see if I can't do some further testing with the Miracal and see what else they have on the shelf.  I mean if a buck can or paint works, then why not use it?  

[Snake45]

This thread just reinforces the importance of doing your own testing. 

I've said elsewhere for years that every gun and ammo combination is a law unto itself. Similarly, every paint and plastic combination is a law unto itself. As is every paint-over-other-paint (including primer) combination. 

Spray a couple of plastic spoons with a new primer. In fact, spray several so you can test the primer against several different paints in the future. 

Then, since your kit might not be made of spoon plastic, also do tests on scrap plastic from the kit. You can use sprues, or the topsides of chassis, the outside of interior tubs, and so forth. 

DON'T experiment on the body of a kit you actually intend to build and finish! 

Thus endeth the lesson. 

[Ironman63]

  On 8/11/2020 at 1:16 PM, randyc said:

Good post, good points.   I don't ever intentionally put on a heavy first coat.   And as soon as I saw what was happening, I stopped.   Like you I have had a systematic approach and think that I inadvertently used the wrong product from what I am used to.  THis is NOT my normal primer, but I wasn't thinking at the time.  LESSON LEARNED.  

This primer might have worked had I realized it was different and I had taken a different approach to it.  I'm glad you guys are contributing to this discussion so everyone can improve from the mistakes of others.   

When I run out of my existing primer, I will definitely be coming back here to help make my next decision.   I noticed at Lowes last night that they don't have the 2x Rusto.  They do have a few duplicolor branded primers.   I guess WalMart is the place for 2x?   I haven't been there since before the Covid thing and don't want to go to the local one because people in our area are idiots and don't think the virus is real; therefore they don't wear masks, social distance etc.   Gives me the heebie jeebies.  Lowes is only better due to reduced volume of customers.  

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The Ace Hardware here carries the Rusto 2x.  It is a few cents more than at Walmart.

[oldscool]

  On 8/13/2020 at 12:53 PM, randyc said:

Will do.   But the last can I bought I used all of so that's one thing.  And since DG is like 2 miles away and we go regularly for other household stuff, I figure no more than a can at a time on hand will work.

I had to look - I don't think I posted here, but when I was sanding Monday evening, the paint seemed to still be soft, so I tested and it would scrape off still.   So into the purple pond.  Tuesday when I came in, 98% of the primer and paint came off with a good brushing.    I can see a bit of texture - when I get back to it, will inspect more closely and sand as necessary then hopefully prime again Saturday with different primer.  

BUT... Back to the Miracal from DG.   When I cleaned the bodies, the primer and painted chassis came clean EXCEPT part of the hood of the ss396  where I had some of the Miracal overspray.    The purple pond did NOT touch that, but the primer came right off over top of it.  I'm going to look into that more closely.  Could the Miracal be a miracle for priming/sealing?  Have to check if it affected the surface at all.  DG has like black and whites on the shelf.  I have a revellogram 67 vette molded in red.  Might be a good test subject for the qualities of the miracal.   I painted all the black trees from the GT4 and the parts from the SS396 that needed to be black with the miracal already.  Went back and resprayed the frame and some other parts with a shinier black for contrast later.  

So I'll see if I can't do some further testing with the Miracal and see what else they have on the shelf.  I mean if a buck can or paint works, then why not use it?  

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I agree, at a buck a can it's a bargain even if you can use only half a can. Just wanted to share my experience with everyone and looking forward to the results of your experiment.

[Snake45]

Just spent 10 minutes trying to find online SDS for Miracal paint (which would tell who makes it) without success. Also couldn't find out direct who makes it. I SUSPECT it might be another label for Rustoleum's low-end line, as the Touch N Tone definitely is, and as I suspect the Walmart Color Place is.  I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to discover that these three lines are all exactly the same thing. 

[randyc]

  On 8/13/2020 at 8:33 PM, Ironman63 said:

The Ace Hardware here carries the Rusto 2x.  It is a few cents more than at Walmart.

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NO luck here.  Ace went away a long time ago locally.   We have a Lowes and a couple lower tier stores maybe.   And a boutique building supply owned by a gen contractor.  So their public pricing is outrageous and they primarily exist to supply the contractor that owns them.   I don;t mind a few cents more if I can avoid the walMart.

[Plowboy]

I switched to Tamiya only a couple or more years ago and haven't looked back. I primer every single part right down to the coil and distributor. I can easily get two builds out of one can. So, I figure I have 5-6 dollars in getting a model in primer. To me, it's worth that to not have to worry about having issues such as this. Not to mention it's the best primer I've ever used. Beats them all hands down! Even the original Plasti Kote. The new by Valspar is garbage.

Saving a few dollars doesn't always save a few dollars. Sometimes, it costs you. I bet right now you would gladly fork over the extra money for Tamiya. So, why not do it always? If the cost is an issue, just use it on the bodies and use the cheap stuff on the rest.

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 8/15/2020 at 12:37 PM, Plowboy said:

I switched to Tamiya only a couple or more years ago and haven't looked back. I primer every single part right down to the coil and distributor. I can easily get two builds out of one can. So, I figure I have 5-6 dollars in getting a model in primer. To me, it's worth that to not have to worry about having issues such as this. Not to mention it's the best primer I've ever used. Beats them all hands down! Even the original Plasti Kote. The new by Valspar is garbage.

Saving a few dollars doesn't always save a few dollars. Sometimes, it costs you. I bet right now you would gladly fork over the extra money for Tamiya. So, why not do it always? If the cost is an issue, just use it on the bodies and use the cheap stuff on the rest.

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I wouldn't exactly call Duplicolor "cheap stuff".

 

It all boils down to the analogy that "a carpenter needs to know how to operate a hammer before he starts driving nails".

Know your tools.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Plowboy]

  On 8/15/2020 at 4:56 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

I wouldn't exactly call Duplicolor "cheap stuff".

 

It all boils down to the analogy that "a carpenter needs to know how to operate a hammer before he starts driving nails".

Know your tools.

 

 

 

 

Steve

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Ummm...I didn't say it was.

You can't learn how to use a hammer without driving nails. ? 

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 8/15/2020 at 6:33 PM, Plowboy said:

Ummm...I didn't say it was.

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The OP was talking about Duplicolor primer.

I assumed you were referring to his questions.

  On 8/15/2020 at 12:37 PM, Plowboy said:

If the cost is an issue, just use it on the bodies and use the cheap stuff on the rest.

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  On 8/15/2020 at 6:33 PM, Plowboy said:

You can't learn how to use a hammer without driving nails. ? 

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Yes, but you can't drive a nail until you know which end is the business end.

 

All I'm saying is, there are plenty of good products on the market, not just Tamiya.

They will work just as well if you know what to do with them.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Joe Handley]

  On 8/10/2020 at 3:18 PM, stitchdup said:

Its another duplicolour product. Its meant for bumpers and trim but it seems to work on models too. Since I started using it, masking seems to work better and I've had a lot less crazing 

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  On 8/10/2020 at 2:33 PM, randyc said:

Clear plastic primer?  What's that one?  

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This is likely what he’s talking about Randy, had good luck using it to paint lexan R/C bodies with Duplicolor products, their bed liner in particular.

https://www.duplicolor.com/product/adhesion-promoter/
 

[stitchdup]

  On 8/15/2020 at 8:37 PM, Joe Handley said:

 

This is likely what he’s talking about Randy, had good luck using it to paint lexan R/C bodies with Duplicolor products, their bed liner in particular.

https://www.duplicolor.com/product/adhesion-promoter/
 

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different can but looks like the same thing we have in the uk, when its goes off does feel slightly sticky?

[slusher]

  On 8/15/2020 at 12:37 PM, Plowboy said:

I switched to Tamiya only a couple or more years ago and haven't looked back. I primer every single part right down to the coil and distributor. I can easily get two builds out of one can. So, I figure I have 5-6 dollars in getting a model in primer. To me, it's worth that to not have to worry about having issues such as this. Not to mention it's the best primer I've ever used. Beats them all hands down! Even the original Plasti Kote. The new by Valspar is garbage.

Saving a few dollars doesn't always save a few dollars. Sometimes, it costs you. I bet right now you would gladly fork over the extra money for Tamiya. So, why not do it always? If the cost is an issue, just use it on the bodies and use the cheap stuff on the rest.

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I really got tired of looking for PlastiCote and went to Tamiya an primer 90 percent of everything thing. Picked that up from you Roger.  I don’t ever plan on using any other primer..

[Joe Handley]

  On 8/15/2020 at 9:20 PM, stitchdup said:

different can but looks like the same thing we have in the uk, when its goes off does feel slightly sticky?

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It’s been over A year since I used it last, so I’m not sure Leslie.  I do have a new lexan body to paint that I plan to use it on though, basically a duplicate of the last body I used it one, right down to the bedliner placement.

Here’s the body I shot last year, plan on keeping the new version trimmed tighter like seen on this pic for use with on-road tires on the truck, I’ve already trimmed this one more open for the off-road tires I got for it.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Joe Handley

[Plowboy]

  On 8/15/2020 at 10:31 PM, slusher said:

I really got tired of looking for PlastiCote and went to Tamiya an primer 90 percent of everything thing. Picked that up from you Roger.  I don’t ever plan on using any other primer..

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Neither do I. I can spray anything over it and I never have to worry about having issues. The last can of Dupli Color primer I used went on rougher than a night in jail! So, I switched. I'll still use Dupli Color paint from time to time. But, I won't use their primer anymore.

[Bugatti Fan]

This thread is very interesting, but appears to concentrate only on the effects of various primers on polystyrene plastic. I would surmise that some of the so called hot primers would probably be perfectly ok on other materials like resins, metal and wood for example.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Bugatti Fan

[Joe Handley]

  On 8/16/2020 at 7:31 AM, Bugatti Fan said:

This thread is very interesting, but appears to concentrate only on the effects of various primers on polystyrene plastic. I would surmise that some of the so called hot primers would probably be perfectly ok on other materials like resins, metal and wood for example.

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Yeah, styrene is more likely to be affected by hotter solvents, with lexan like on my truck a couple posts up where it needs to bite into the plastic then flex with the body when you start beating on it. I even scuff those areas before laying down the clear primer for extra bite.

[gman]

  On 8/16/2020 at 7:31 AM, Bugatti Fan said:

This thread is very interesting, but appears to concentrate only on the effects of various primers on polystyrene plastic. I would surmise that some of the so called hot primers would probably be perfectly ok on other materials like resins, metal and wood for example.

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For sure- resin and metal don't seem to react with "hot" primers. In fact, many kit styrenes used to work well with older formulations of "hot" primer. I used Duplicolor and Plasticote automotive lacquer primers on kit plastic for many years with good results. There have been a few eras where styrene kit manufacturers varied the make up of plastic used in their kits, and some are more prone to developing problems with lacquer primers and top coats (with recent kits coming from China being the worst, most likely to react, leaving you with crazed and etched plastic). Initial mist coats of primer shock the plastic, and if you lay it on too heavy, that shock turns the outer layer into a textured & softened surface, with the texture being visible through additional coats. That softened state lasts until those solvents fully gas out and cure. Lacquer paints adhere to previous coats by chemically bonding- the solvent melts the coats underneath,  and subsequent coats need to be light enough to lay down with a smooth texture, but not be so heavy that the solvents melt through those mist coats into the underlying plastic. Lacquer top coats adhere to primer in the same way.

As Steve and others have pointed out, knowing how to lay down those initial primer coats and allowing their solvents to gas off before laying down wetter coats is the key to avoiding the plastic crazing- in subsequent primer coats, and in lacquer top coats. The material being painted has a lot to do with how to approach laying down your primer and color coats...if it is something less impacted by solvents than styrene, you don't need to allow as much time to elapse before re-coating. The solvents don't affect the base material, so laying additional solvents down overtop of them won't impact the overall paint layers to the same degree as you'll see over styrene.

[Deuces ll]

Thanks Gman!.....

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 8/16/2020 at 8:32 PM, gman said:

As Steve and others have pointed out, knowing how to lay down those initial primer coats and allowing their solvents to gas off before laying down wetter coats is the key to avoiding the plastic crazing- in subsequent primer coats, and in lacquer top coats. The material being painted has a lot to do with how to approach laying down your primer and color coats.

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Well said Greg.

Thank you.

 

Thank you for mentioning that it's a good practice to allow curing time between primer coats with these primers.

I neglected to do so.

 

I generally allow at least a couple of hours, if not over night between coats.

 

In the end, there are many tools available to us today as modelers.

Explore them all before making a decision if you are still in the process of formulating a good regimen for painting.

 

Just as others give glowing reviews for Tamiya primer, I have the same affection for Duplicolor.

The product does exactly what it is supposed to do if you allow yourself to become familiar with it.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by StevenGuthmiller

[Bugatti Fan]

Patience appears to be the key as suggested as each  mist coat he allowed to dry out thoroughly before the next layer goes on. Sound advice by a number of posters on this thread.

[Deuces ll]

??