Unreal quality difference, what gives?

[Paintandwrenches]

 So, I've only recently (past year or so) really gotten back into building, definitely a beginner. I was accumulating kits as a result of buying and selling auction stuff, which lead to building, which lead to an airbrush, which lead to...well, the rabbit hole goes deep...The Riviera is one of the first one's I got a while back and I've just now decided to start it. The General is one I got uber cheap missing decals and was just going to do it black. Here's my question, the Riviera seems like a very nice kit, heavy, detailed, low on flash and mold lines. The General is a horror show, literally so bad that I gave up. Going by dates on the box, Buick is 2000, General is 2007. Is there really that much of a quality difference in such a short time? Are there different grades of kits within a company? Are newer kits just something to avoid? I just built the Big Game Chevy that I bought at Hobby Lobby and it kinda sucked. What sort of wisdom can you guys impart on me here?

[Mark]

It's all about when the kit was created, and how many versions it has been through over the years.  The Buick was first manufactured in the late Nineties and has only been issued a couple of times.  The Charger has been both promotional models and kits for 1968 through 1970, it has been used as a couple of funny car bodies, a couple of NASCAR versions, and of course the General Lee which for a time was one of the all-time best selling car kits.  So the tooling has been through the mill, to say the least.

[Tom Geiger]

And the detail level of the model also reflects the technology and market norms of when that tool was created. We are blessed that some 50-60 years worth of tooling still exists and the kits get reissued today. So while your 66 Riv is a modern tooling, if you bought a 62 Buick it was originally tooled in late 1961 and will have a one piece chassis and other lack of detail that was the norm back then. 

Best bet is if you have a question about kits you wish to buy, float it out on this board and folks here will give you good information.

[lordairgtar]

What Mark says is true. As you delve into more kits and see how old the actual tooling is, you will understand this. I have been reading Tim Boyd's book on Muscle Car kits and he goes through all the kits in pretty good detail and tells you which are dogs and which are decent and everything in between. Get the book or other material written by people in the know and see what they say. Or....just come here and ask others what their opinion is on anything you might be interested in. That Charger isn't really that bad but is not accurate for a Dukes car but can make a pretty nice model as your skills develop.

[keyser]

The 66 is a new tool. The fairly easily available 69 Riviera is an original tool, actually in part the original 66. The 65 Riv is also readily available, was originally the 63, facelifted to 64, then 65. It still is a nice kit, looks like a 65 Riv completed. 

Your Revell 68 Charger in the background is a new tool of the era 68-70, much more satisfying. The 69 Charger is of same series, so if you need a 69, that's the one. 

Enjoy.

[StevenGuthmiller]

Let's put it this way.

If we were limited to only more highly detailed kits initially produced within the past 25 years, a large majority of us would have stashes a fraction of the size that we have now.

I suppose that would be fine for those in our hobby that only want to build models that require very little work to be able to produce a nicely detailed model regardless of subject, but I think I might speak for a fairly large segment of individuals within our hobby when I say that for many of us, subject matter is often vastly more important than detail level.

Go take a look at your collection of kits and just remember that almost all of the full sized automobiles represented in that collection are very likely repops of kits that started life back when the 1:1 was actually produced.

I suppose that it might be hard to get excited about an AMT 1970 Impala, '65 Ford Galaxie or '66 Buick Wildcat when they're so readily available today, but our views might change a bit if they didn't exist at all, which they wouldn't, and probably never would if we were relying on modern kit manufacturing to produce them.

They might not be all that they're cracked up to be when placed next to one of the more modern tooled kits, but when given the choice of a more simply molded model versus none at all for a large portion of what we have available, I'll take a simple kit every time.

 

I guess that I would echo what some others have already said by repeating that if the engineering of the kit is what's more important to you over subject matter David, simply pose the question to the board and most any of us will be able to give you a general idea of what you're in for before you buy the kit.

You'll likely be happy with a kit like the '68 Charger pictured above, but don't plan on building a '63 Ford Galaxie, '65 Pontiac Grand Prix or a '69 Plymouth Barracuda.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited September 22, 2020 by StevenGuthmiller

[Bucky]

Some differences in engineering might be attributed to the fact that some of the recent AMT kit offerings actually started life as MPC kits back in the day.  I remember a few of the MPC kits were a bit fiddly.

[slusher]

The General Lee IMHO has never been a great kit..

[Bugatti Fan]

A lot of fun and sense of achievement can be derived from making a silk purse out of a sow's ear! 

If you want a kit where you just shake the box to get a perfect model then Tamiya comes to mind.

To get the subject matter you want will in all probability entail many reissued kits that are moulded from clapped out tooling. The original Revell EType Jaguar was a prime example, now replaced thank goodness by a new tool kit from Germany.

I'm afraid guys we will just have to keep working at those old kits that will probably never be retooled again. Developing skills should be looked at as a pleasure, not a penance!

[randyc]

Welcome to the ever maddening worled of BUILDING the kits now that you have a stash to be built.   If you've been in the hobby as long as a lot of us, you can tell the kits aprat easily.   As you have found, though, it can be crazy to figure out which kits are good and which are dogs.   I think on My General Lee build, I used only the wheels and push bar from the GL kit.  Maybe the decals and roll bar?   The rest was the newer tool Revell 69 Charger.   The MPC/AMT/Round2 kit is awful imo.   With that said, if you just want and basic shelf model that reflects a hodge podge of 69 Charger options, the AMT kit will work.  Not sure if they ever fixed the rear window, but it was at one time the flush window area from the NASCAR Charger 500.   The chassis is crude compared to the Revell.   If you are going to throw some paint detailing on it and be done, it will support the four wheels.  However, if you are after the pleasure of recreating a more accurate underside, the REvell is the only way to go with kit based.  

As others have said, throw it out as a question here before handing over money.   THe thread will inevitably go off track, but you should get a pretty quick reply with good information.  Or do a Google search and look for modelcarsmag.com posts there.  In my experience, this is as good a forum as any out there for finding information.  I try to post threads myself with that in mind so if someone googles a particular kit, they may find it.  

The Buick kit is great and I think that is the original issue, maybe?   These two show the differences in where kit development has evolved to over the years.  

Keep at it and come back often and post up your builds.   

[Snake45]

New or old, give me a good, accurate basic shape and I'll add whatever details I think I need. 

[CapSat 6]

"Legacy" tooling. There is a lot of it out there. Many kits offered by Round 2/ AMT/MPC are older 60's and '70's era designs.

Generally speaking, if the tool for a given subject still exists, this will discourage other companies or even the same company from developing a new tool, since, if the tool is still in good shape, the old one can always be reissued. There are a few exceptions however, the '69 Charger being one of them, as Revell developed a "modern" tool for the '68-'69 Charger about 20 years ago or so.

MPC, AMT and Jo Han created "annual" kits back in the 1960's and 70's, from around 1961- 1980. The same basic tool would be used for the same generation of car (for instance, for Dodge Chargers - '68, '69 and '70 kits), and a new tool would be developed for the next generation (for instance, the '71-'74 Charger annuals). Each generation was updated yearly, so some years were offered only once as an annual kit. The annual kits were developed as more or less state-of-the-art in the year they were developed. Dealer Promotional models (promos) were also crated from these basic tools- these were curbside pre-built showroom stock cars in an assortment of factory colors that were sold or given away at car dealerships. Original annual kits and Promos are very desirable on the collector's market due to their sometimes-vast building options, box art, and most of the time, very accurate body shapes. Many of these tools had a much longer production life than the original designers ever intended (if they survived, see below), sometimes being reissued 40 or 50 years later. The recent releases, while being crude by today's design standards, still often have a strong nostalgia factor with long time builders.   

Here's an example by model. MPC really made the most of their tooling back then, switching and borrowing parts of tools to be combined with other kits, using bodies on Funny Car and NASCAR chassis, etc.

Dodge Charger:

1966 - with stock, drag, custom and NASCAR/USAC style racing options. Also, "spy" parts (machine guns, rockets, and interior "controls" were included. I suspect that some of the tool (chassis, some of the engine) was based on those from the AMT (really MPC) '65 Dodge Coronet kit.  

1967 - with stock, drag "funny" (a stock body mounted on a stock chassis that was made to tilt at the rear bumper), custom, and NASCAR/USAC style racing options. The body, bumpers, and interior were updated for 1967.  

Color Me Gone funny car: the '67 body was modified into an altered wheelbase form. A new funny car chassis (which probably was shared with other MPC kits, but I don't remember the specifics) was used. It was only issued once in the late '60's. I seem to remember that at some point, whomever had the MPC tooling back about 15-20 years ago floated the idea of reissuing this kit, but nothing ever came of it.

The '67 annual tool mostly survived all of this.

The 1967 was reissued in the early '70's as a street machine (sliver on the box) with new 5 spoke mags, and some new drag parts, and M/T slicks, while the custom, racing parts, and some stock parts (wheels) were deleted.    

In the '80's, it was released (black on the box), molded in black, with new ('80's-style) modular wheels, fat rear tires and side pipes added, along with a supercharger set up for the big Hemi. The custom, racing and stock parts that were deleted last time did not return.

In the late 90's, it was released more or less in the same form as it was in the '80's, but in gray plastic and with a yellow built on the box.

Just a few years ago, it was released again, in a retro box that looked just like the early '70's release. The old M/T slicks from the '70's were added back, along with new 5-spoke mags that looks mostly like the ones from the early 70's release.

That's just the '66-'67 Chargers.

The '68-'70 tool's history was MUCH more complicated (the MPC 2nd gen Charger tool had one of the most active and convoluted histories in the history of model cars, thanks in no small part to the Dukes of Hazzard).

Here's a short (haha!) rundown of the 2nd gen MPC Charger tool: '68 Annual & Promo, '69 Annual and Promo, '68 and '69 Color Me Gone and Mr. Norm's funny cars, '70 Annual & Promo, #71 Bobby Isaac '70 Daytona stock car with stock chassis, #22 Dick Brooks '70 Daytona stock car with generic NASCAR chassis, '69 General Lee (which took a LOT of restoration, and even then it not done very well), '69 Charger 500, '69 Daytona factory stock, various General Lees again, Fast and Furious, and reissues of the Daytona and 500 in between those. Oh yeah- and one last parting shot, done as the "Country Charger" (basically a Lee kit molded in black with new decals and 5-spoke mags added in). Did I miss any?

The first (1979 issue) Lee kits had a racing interior (from one of the Daytona stock cars) with stock bucket seats and dash. Later issues had the stock interior added back, as it was found for the 500 and Daytona kits that were to follow.

The General Lee pictured at the top probably still has the old "500/Daytona" window. That was changed for the Daytona in 1970 or so, it was not corrected for the General Lee in '79. It was left that way, correct as it was for the 500 and Daytona variants created in the late 80's / early 90's. The rear window was finally fixed (although it was not as nice as the original annual) with the Fast & Furious release in the 2000's.   

I started building these MPC General Lee kits when I was about 9. I had to have a General Lee back then, and bought a bunch more to build as street machines & race cars, as it was the only game in town for Chargers in scale back in the early 80's. With some extra parts and some imagination, I was able to do a lot with those kits. While they are basic, they still do come together reasonably well.

My biggest beefs with the MPC '69 Charger tool are:

1) the hood is a '70 or Daytona style hood, per the vent design. The correct hood was available in the old '68 and '69 annuals, and the first release of the 500 kit. I wish Round 2 would bring that old correct hood back.

2) the rear valence panel is terrible. It was part of the body mold to start. My guess is that MPC put cuts into it in '79 so that the rear bumper could be inserted easier, it's held together with an oversized (structural? ) license plate, it's terrible as you can see. Round 2 should just cut it free from the body mold and tool a new one.

3) For the '79 General Lee, they added in grille inserts from their '71-'72 Charger kit. The original '69 inserts were nothing to write home about however. Round 2 could always tool up new ones for this kit.     

As the license for Dukes of Hazzard stuff is essentially a dead issue (maybe rightly so, I won't get into that here), they could do worse than to tool a new hood, rear valence and grille inserts, and try to make it a modern 3-in-1, with a cool box and decals. 

I suggest you try to have some fun with that kit. Test paint on it, cut it up, do what you like. Make it something that it is not. You could always try to find a 500 grille and make it into a 500.  

    

Edited September 22, 2020 by CapSat 6

[Greg Myers]

  Quote

You'll likely be happy with a kit like the '68 Charger pictured above, but don't plan on building a '63 Ford Galaxie, '65 Pontiac Grand Prix or a '69 Plymouth Barracuda. 

Expand  

Why not ?

[Snake45]

  On 9/22/2020 at 5:45 PM, Greg Myers said:

Why not ?

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Why not indeed? I've seen quite a few VERY nice models built from all three of these kits. All it takes is the desire and a little MODELING. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 9/22/2020 at 5:45 PM, Greg Myers said:

Why not ?

Expand  

 

  On 9/22/2020 at 6:46 PM, Snake45 said:

Why not indeed? I've seen quite a few VERY nice models built from all three of these kits. All it takes is the desire and a little MODELING. 

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My point was, if you are shying away from subject matter that was initially produced 40 or 50 years ago, and "substandard" by today's specifications, these models are not going to make you happy when you open the box, just like the Duke's Charger pictured above.

The OP was wondering why recently issued kits can vary so much in detail level.

We were all describing why this is so, and I was just pointing out that if highly detailed kits are what you are striving for, these old "annual style" kits are exactly the sort of disappointment that he is trying to avoid.

 

I think both Snake and Greg understand that I am not the type to shy away from this type of kit.

My entire collection consists almost solely of these types of models, and I love re-working them.

But if high detail without a lot of parts swapping and re-engineering is what you're after, you're not going to find it in these kits.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Greg Myers]

This one's great

[StevenGuthmiller]

  On 9/23/2020 at 1:11 AM, Greg Myers said:

This one's great

Expand  

It is!

Unfortunately it's the only example of a full sized 60s Ford that AMT saw fit to produce an entirely new tooling over the original.

If this were not the case, anyone wanting a detailed model of a '60 Ford Starliner would have to do a considerable amount of slicing and dicing to do it well, as with most of the annual kits from that period.

Remakes like this are unfortunately few and far between.

 

By the way, one of the best parts about the new tooling of the AMT '60 Ford is the fact that all of the guts make a great starting point for creating a detailed build of a '61- '64 Ford or Mercury.

 

 

 

 

Steve