Why these insanely overly complex cars will be junk when the dealers no longer maintain repair parts...

[Ace-Garageguy]

Contrary to a lot of rebleated misinformation, manufacturers are not necessarily required to maintain stocks of parts for vehicles that are out of OEM warranty.  (EDIT: though they are required to keep parts "available" for emissions-related systems). Many electronic modules and devices are simply not available from the aftermarket currently, and those that are are frequently of poor quality and don't last long. The car in this vid is going to have to go to a Jag dealer because of so many interrelated trouble codes, and due to the age of the thing, the owner may be SOL. I've seen the estimated cost of repairs on newer vehicles exceed the value of the vehicle by a significant margin.

EDIT: Those fancy "multi speed (8+)" automatic gearboxes are particularly expensive to replace, and many necessary repair parts are just not available anywhere.

This is a dose of reality for everybody who truly believes newer is automatically better.

Unfortunately, this is very typical of what we're seeing more and more frequently...and some manufacturers are adding additional layers to the computer interface so that independent shops can't even talk to them AT ALL.

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[peteski]

Same goes for appliances (or any product nowadays which is full of electronics).  My fridge is over 15 years old, and while it is not as full of computers as today's fridges, it does have small control panel that is electronic.  Just some LEDs, buttons and a small microcontroller "brain" which controls the defrost cycle and ice maker).  I figured I should get a spare one just in case this one fails, since other mechanical parts in fridges (like the compressor) seem to last forever I like to keep mine going as long as I can. Well I  looked everywhere online and that part is discontinued and out of stock.  I should have picked one up when the fridge was a bit newer.

Same goes for washers, dryers, microwaves, and stoves. They all have electronics and spare parts will not be stocked forever. Unlike the old days where you could pick up spare (mechanical or simple electrical parts) for your Kenmore washer pretty much 30 years after it was made.

[Mark]

It might not even be parts.  The president of General Motors has already stated that you may own the car, but they own the software needed to operate it.  

Right now I'm wearing a three year old Fitbit that no longer connects with my phone or computer.  They chose to make it obsolete by not supporting the software.  It still gives the time and counts my steps, but that's it.  I can see that happening with appliances and cars just as easily.

[NOBLNG]

There’s a sure fire repair for that Jag!

[Ace-Garageguy]

26 minutes ago, Mark said:

It might not even be parts.  The president of General Motors has already stated that you may own the car, but they own the software needed to operate it.  

Right now I'm wearing a three year old Fitbit that no longer connects with my phone or computer.  They chose to make it obsolete by not supporting the software.  It still gives the time and counts my steps, but that's it.  I can see that happening with appliances and cars just as easily.

There's a related issue in litigation with John Deere regarding "right to repair", stemming from the manufacturer trying to lock out non-corporate techs from servicing the machines.

I haven't checked lately, but that outcome should be interesting...at best establishing "legal precedent" when similar cases inevitably come up against other OEMs.

[keyser]

Right to repair huge issue that won’t be addressed well. Farmers have similar problem with John Deere. Not like you can drag a dead combine to the shop. 
And I’m sure every tradesman will run out and buy an electric truck. And pay over msrp.

Bill you type faster than I. Lol. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by keyser

[Ace-Garageguy]

24 minutes ago, NOBLNG said:

There’s a sure fire repair for that Jag!

That's kinda close to the truth...but there usually are ways to bypass all the insane electronics when they fail permanently, assuming the basic mechanical elements are reasonable.

I already had to retrofit my early EFI-equipped GMC truck with a 60-year-old 2-barrel carb design...which works fine...but now every other electronically controlled function on the thing has quit, the most currently annoying being the controls for heat and AC, and the wipers work when they feel like it. But no heat all winter. I have a set of old-school slider controls saved from something the client wanted "upgraded" to all processor-controlled stuff from Vintage Air, and soon as I have some breathing room, she'll get fixed...permanently.

In this hemisphere, many Cubans have already had to improvise heavily to stay on the road when parts for anything US-made weren't available for other reasons, so keeping things running in spite of (insert reason here) has quite a history already. 

But I don't want anything built after about 2005 or '06. Just too much to do to rationalize 'em.  

[Rodent]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

..and some manufacturers are adding additional layers to the computer interface so that independent shops can't even talk to them AT ALL.

At least in the case of 2018-up FCA/Stellantis, this is for security against hacking in to "internet connected" cars. A legit shop can go through a third party company (AUTOAUTH) and register their scan tool(s). All modules can be communicated with then.

Or at least that is their story.

[Smoke Wagon]

3 minutes ago, keyser said:

And I’m sure every tradesman will run out and buy an electric truck. And pay over msrp. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Most guys in construction tend to actually be more skeptical and critical of EVs. Our businesses depend on our work vehicles to get us and our tools to the job site, so research and due diligence is required when looking for a new one. 

EV trucks seem to be more aimed towards the type of guy who buys a crew cab 3/4 ton 4x4 pickup to drive to an office job and pick up groceries with. That’s what the pickup market has been catering to now for years. Why cater to tradesmen who want base model low-option trucks, when you’ve got this huge market of people who’ll blow upwards of 60 grand on a truck that they’ll only keep for a few years before repeating the process.

With EV trucks, manufacturers sort of have a clear slate to work with, they can hit the ground running gearing their trucks towards the market that’ll net them the most profit. 

[Claude Thibodeau]

Hi!

A friend runs a high-end "last resort repair" shop, where all manners of dealers bring cars when they just can't admit to tell their customers that "there's nothing they can do anymore". My friend is a whiz, but even he is sometimes puzzled by the rationale behind current techno choices by OEM, and the level of expertise at their service department...

Case in point: a superb low miles A5 Audi is back to the dealer every other month, because the dealer warranty-supplied PCM computer burns after a short time. They are up to 14K$ in computers. My friend told them that the law of logics indicates it must NOT be a computer fault, but some unsuspected 2$ glitch. They paid him to investigate, and he soon discovered that the ground strap that links the engine to the chassis was poorly installed at the factory. It was, indeed, a 8$ faulty part, but do you think the dealer will refrain from "passing over" his excessive costs to many other unsuspecting customers at his service department? They will be charged strange-souding parts or service procedures that will be buried at the bottom of the service invoice. Wanna bet? 

A famous auto journalist once said: "if you get a high-end luxury car dirt cheap, good for you. But you will soon discover that whatever the price you paid for your dream car, whenever you open the hood, it is STILL a 75K$ exotic". 

Amen. 

CT 

[peteski]

1 hour ago, keyser said:

Right to repair huge issue that won’t be addressed well. Farmers have similar problem with John Deere. Not like you can drag a dead combine to the shop. 
And I’m sure every tradesman will run out and buy an electric truck. And pay over msrp.

Bill you type faster than I. Lol. 

Yes, this is a big deal, and it is done on per-State basis.

https://www.repair.org/stand-up/

In Mass. there is https://www.autocare.org/government-relations/current-issues/right-to-repair

[Mark]

I have always thought that, if you can't afford a particular car new, you probably can't afford it used either.  A high-end car (any car, for that matter) with 50,000 miles on it is just 50,000 miles nearer to needing something major taken care of.  I have bought all of my daily driver vehicles new (four of them between 1979 and 2017), and have leaned towards mid-price vehicles, avoiding radically new technology.  The gap in quality and longevity between lower and higher priced vehicles is probably narrower than ever right now.

[Ace-Garageguy]

3 hours ago, Mark said:

...The president of General Motors has already stated that you may own the car, but they own the software needed to operate it...

Not surprising considering what I think of the personage in question.

But to me, that's as ludicrous as saying you don't own the function of the metering jets and circuits in a carburetor, or the advance curve in an old-school distributor.

My examples are functions of parts that exist in physical reality, and are governed by well known physical laws...and the car couldn't operate without them, hence would have no marketable value.

Likewise, a convincing argument can be made, if stated properly, that information programmed on to a chip, including an encoded sequence of operations and logic paths, the "software", has existence in physical reality. And the functioning of the vehicle is determined, just as it is in the older version above, by repeatable actions of physical matter, in this case electrons, governed by physical laws.

The 1s and 0s that are the basis of any digital system don't just magically exist in the imagination of the code-writer, or the ether, or something equally non-material.

They exist as physical states of matter, or electrical charges, that have real existance...no matter how infinitesimally small.

Again, an electronically-controlled car couldn't operate, and again, would have no marketable value without these "parts" functioning in the physical realm.

You buy the car, you logically own the software that gives it functional value too.

I rest my case, your honor.   

Edited February 20, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY and ACCURACY

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Mark said:

I have always thought that, if you can't afford a particular car new, you probably can't afford it used either...

Unless you're a skilled mechanic. I couldn't afford my Porsches and Jaguars when they were new, but in my hands now, these old beasts are everything I would have expected them to be then...or will be again fairly shortly...and when they inevitably break, I'm not going to be held hostage to the "fix it, mommy" mentality.

EDIT: Looking farther back, it occurred to my tired old brain that I've ALWAYS bought older cars (except once), even when I was a callow young white-collar fella. I realized pretty early I could get WAY more in image, appearance, and performance than if I bought new, and it was beyond worth it to me to learn how to fix 'em...and what ultimately lead me to get into the dirty-hands end of the car biz.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[keyser]

3 hours ago, Smoke Wagon said:

Most guys in construction tend to actually be more skeptical and critical of EVs. Our businesses depend on our work vehicles to get us and our tools to the job site, so research and due diligence is required when looking for a new one. 

With EV trucks, manufacturers sort of have a clear slate to work with, they can hit the ground running gearing their trucks towards the market that’ll net them the most profit. 

I was being facetious, everyone will not drive EV’s. Can’t afford them, and tradesmen as you said rely on vehicles. And we can’t all rely on grid. Myopic dream of all EVs. 
 

Bill, you’re smart enough to not have X300. Series 3 pretty cars. Wife had VdP SC for a couple years. X350 better but still. 
Audi or owner should Lemon law that fright pig. 🤷🏻🤦🏻‍♂️

[OneTrickPony]

The new buzz phrase I am hearing is "options by subscription." As long as you maintain your subscription payments, your optional equipment will continue to function. When you drop the subscription, they remotely disable the function. This allows the manufacturer to maintain an income stream from the vehicle. Think of OnStar for your power seats. Your cool driver memory function will require an annual payment to work.

 

So far as the issue the OP brought up, the only parts that are federally mandated to be available are emissions related items. Some emissions parts are required to function for 100k miles 

[1972coronet]

As soon as I saw that steaming pile that he diagnosed (different battery; replaced the customer's battery the car arrived with), I knew that it was junk yard fodder. 

Just like BMWs and Mercedes : a part which costs literally two dollars --OEM part at that, typically an oil seal-- ends up being a $900 repair because one has to disassemble half of the flippin' engine to get to that two dollar seal.

Junk, junk, junk.

[Ace-Garageguy]

26 minutes ago, keyser said:

...Bill, you’re smart enough to not have X300. Series 3 pretty cars. Wife had VdP SC for a couple years. X350 better but still. 
Audi or owner should Lemon law that fright pig. 🤷🏻🤦🏻‍♂️

Agreed. Both my Jags are mid-'80s, last of the '48 XK-engine-design powered cars. Equipped with EFI and other mod cons now, they're easily backdated to run-forever carbs and ancillaries, and one's slated for a SBC with a 5-speed stick.   

[Mark]

24 minutes ago, 1972coronet said:

As soon as I saw that steaming pile that he diagnosed (different battery; replaced the customer's battery the car arrived with), I knew that it was junk yard fodder. 

Just like BMWs and Mercedes : a part which costs literally two dollars --OEM part at that, typically an oil seal-- ends up being a $900 repair because one has to disassemble half of the flippin' engine to get to that two dollar seal.

Junk, junk, junk.

Newer cars aren't designed to be taken apart, they are designed to be assembled as quickly as possible (fewer labor hours).  They simply don't care how long it takes to get at something.  Once it's out of the assembly plant, no longer their problem.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Just now, Mark said:

...Once it's out of the assembly plant, no longer their problem.

In short: out of warranty, out of mind.

[keyser]

2 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

In short: out of sight of dealer, out of mind.

FIFY. 🤣

[Mark]

It's heading towards a per month (maybe per mile) cost...vehicle, maintenance...only separate items will be insurance and fuel...maybe they'll figure out how to fold those in too.  How much car do you want, how much are you willing to pay?

Everyone is trying to sink their hooks in with "automatic, per month" charges.  I ran my car through the car wash the other day, to knock the road salt off...they were pushing unlimited car washes for $20 per month.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Mark
Spelling

[mikemodeler]

Keep in mind a lot of the technology in vehicles today has been government mandated. And the push for better fuel economy and crash safety has caused repair costs to skyrocket due to the additional parts required to meet the government mandates.

Certain manufacturers have complex assemblies that are inherently designed to get them through a warranty period and not much longer while others tend to be built for long term owner satisfaction. I have worked in the vehicle repair and parts manufacturing industry in various positions for the last 40 years and know from personal experience what vehicles to avoid and which ones will give a more trouble free experience.

[Mark]

I won't mention brands, but my current driver is sneaking up on 55,000 miles.  I had the rear brakes done last fall...pads, rotors.  Other than that, and oil changes...nothing.  

My two previous vehicles (both from the same manufacturer, but not the same as the car I have now) on the other hand, had the brakes done on all four wheels, twice, by the time they got to 55,000.  If anything, the current vehicle gets more stop-and-go driving than the previous two. 

It would appear that some manufacturers are better than others when it comes to customer satisfaction and getting their products to last beyond the warranty period.

[Ace-Garageguy]

10 minutes ago, Mark said:

It's heading towards a per month (maybe per mile) cost...vehicle, maintenance...only separate items will be insurance and fuel...maybe they'll figure out how to fold those in too.  How much car do you want, how much are you willing to pay?

Everyone is trying to sink their hooks in with "automatic, per month" charges.  I ran my car through the car wash the other day, to knock the road salt off...they were pushing unlimited car washes for $20 per month.

Some time back, GM's mo' better vision of the future was to get out of the sales of vehicles entirely, providing an "on-demand transportation experience" utilizing self-driving pods instead, for either a monthly fee, or a per-mile charge.

"Mommy...can I go pway at Biwwy's house? Wi' you take me...pweese?"