BlackSheep214 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 I've been reading a lot of news of EVs from insurance companies writing them off when they're slight damaged, consumers giving them up due to range anxiety and false truths on range longevity, costs to charge them, etc... Very recently, dealerships and taking a beating because they can't sell them because consumers are no longer interested in them due to cost and other reasons. Dealerships don't even want any new EVs on their car lots because they're not making a profit/meeting their sales quotas. I can't blame them. I've already made my feelings known on EVs. My question is strictly not meant to be political but wondered if anyone noticed the trend of EVs and taking a huge nosedive now that interests of owning one is waning. I believe there is someone here who is/was a fleet manager at a Ford dealership. I'm curious on his thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthehobbyguy Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 I've seen a couple of articles about low damage cars being totaled. It's not just limited to EVs. The problem is all of the complex electronics in the cars today, a good shop can evaluate physical damage fairly accurately in most cases. It is a lot moredifficult to know how much damage has been done to all the sensors. In addition simple things like an wheel alignment can can twice as long becuase those systems need to be recalibrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodent Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said: I've seen a couple of articles about low damage cars being totaled. It's not just limited to EVs. The problem is all of the complex electronics in the cars today, a good shop can evaluate physical damage fairly accurately in most cases. It is a lot moredifficult to know how much damage has been done to all the sensors. In addition simple things like an wheel alignment can can twice as long becuase those systems need to be recalibrated. Supply chain issues totaled a lot of cars. Insurance companies didn't want to wait for parts to come off of back order, especially electronic items like ADAS components, airbag parts, etc. Pay off the client, then they are on their own to find another car, and the old car goes to auction and becomes someone else's problem. I am on an industry forum, and many of the questions are about programming used modules because new ones are still not available from the manufacturers in many cases, or the wait is weeks. Also, high and extra high-strength steel is commonly used now and it typically can't be straightened. We had a drivable car totaled in 2018 because the driver's side front rail had a slight bend in it. Ford did not allow sectioning of that rail, so it added $10k to the estimate to replace, necessitating engine/trans removal. The pyrotechnic seatbelt and knee airbag deployed, but none of the others. Edited August 25, 2023 by Rodent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamsuperdan Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 4 hours ago, BlackSheep214 said: I've been reading a lot of news of EVs from insurance companies writing them off when they're slight damaged, consumers giving them up due to range anxiety and false truths on range longevity, costs to charge them, etc... Very recently, dealerships and taking a beating because they can't sell them because consumers are no longer interested in them due to cost and other reasons. Dealerships don't even want any new EVs on their car lots because they're not making a profit/meeting their sales quotas. I can't blame them. I've already made my feelings known on EVs. My question is strictly not meant to be political but wondered if anyone noticed the trend of EVs and taking a huge nosedive now that interests of owning one is waning. I believe there is someone here who is/was a fleet manager at a Ford dealership. I'm curious on his thoughts. I would probably be the Ford fleet manager you're thinking of. So around here, the EV market has definitely softened this summer. Since May. Over the past year, Mach-E sales were steady, moving maybe one a month. Lightnings had been hot since they debuted last summer. But that initial rush is done, and now that production is in full swing, dealers have good on ground inventory, and that's part of the reason Ford has lowered prices. We're still moving them, but interested has waned slightly. I don't think it's from any big anti-EV sentiment, but I think people are kind of seeing them as just a truck now. We're seeing a lot of F150 owners considering both ICE and EV versions, which is kind of interesting. What's also interesting is that while retail EV sales have slowed, businesses are starting to come around to the idea. The two of us in our fleet department currently make up just about all of our EV business right now. Since summer began, I think our retail department moved a couple of Mach-Es while we've done a dozen or so Lightnings here in fleet. And the eTransit was dead on arrival, but now we've found the sweet spot, and are moving them steadily. Municipalities love them. We have quite a few on order right now, so those are looking to be strong until the end of the year. Overall, the market has softened, but it's still pretty good. At least as good as normal vehicles. At least here in Alberta, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodent Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 33 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said: What's also interesting is that while retail EV sales have slowed, businesses are starting to come around to the idea. The two of us in our fleet department currently make up just about all of our EV business right now. Since summer began, I think our retail department moved a couple of Mach-Es while we've done a dozen or so Lightnings here in fleet. And the eTransit was dead on arrival, but now we've found the sweet spot, and are moving them steadily. Municipalities love them. We have quite a few on order right now, so those are looking to be strong until the end of the year. There is a pair of Ford dealerships owned by the same people near me, and one is a "commercial center (centre)". Oddly, they have about white 15 Mach-Es in the front. I guess someone ordered them for a fleet, but they seem kind of expensive for a government purchase. Local WalMart has an eTransit delivery vehicle, but it is unclear where they charge it unless it is behind the building. The reserved parking spot it lives in when not being used does not have a charger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyK Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 I don't know about current sales but I've noticed more and more EV's on the road, driving through my neighborhood, and driving through parking lots. And I don't get out all that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TarheelRick Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 I guess I am old and unable to accept some change and EV is one of them. I was talking with a gentleman who had just purchased a used Tesla. I questioned him about the range and how he knew where to find charging stations. His reply was the car had a navigation system which identified charging stations, so you determined your route by where the charging stations were. My thoughts are, what if I do not want to take that route; maybe I want to take a more back-country scenic route. A good friend of mine works at a nuclear power station with one of the major eastern power companies. He is adamant that the power grid is unable to support a large influx of EV's. Also mentioned to the Tesla owner how much I enjoyed the slight rumble of the exhaust on my F-150. He said the Tesla has a recording of engine noises. That makes we think of the vegetarian who buys a plant-based hamburger, why not buy the real thing and get the full flavor. Rant over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Hall Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) I see a lot of EVs, mostly Teslas but plenty of the Kias, Hyundais and occasionally Ford and M-B. I've seen a couple of the Cadillac Lyriq, a sweet looking CUV. I don't see an EV necessarily fitting my use case in the near future---I work from home and don't have a commute...drive mostly around town and occasional weekend trips. Down the road maybe something like a Grand Cherokee 4xe hybrid would suit me. I'll probably be car shopping in the next 12-18 months...either another Grand Cherokee or maybe a Tahoe or Yukon for more towing capacity. Though I've thought about keeping my current GC ('14 w/ 76k miles) for winter and light towing and getting a sedan (Cadillac CT5 or used CT6, maybe a Chrysler 300C) for road trips.. Edited September 5, 2023 by Rob Hall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamsuperdan Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, TarheelRick said: I guess I am old and unable to accept some change and EV is one of them. I was talking with a gentleman who had just purchased a used Tesla. I questioned him about the range and how he knew where to find charging stations. His reply was the car had a navigation system which identified charging stations, so you determined your route by where the charging stations were. My thoughts are, what if I do not want to take that route; maybe I want to take a more back-country scenic route. A good friend of mine works at a nuclear power station with one of the major eastern power companies. He is adamant that the power grid is unable to support a large influx of EV's. Also mentioned to the Tesla owner how much I enjoyed the slight rumble of the exhaust on my F-150. He said the Tesla has a recording of engine noises. That makes we think of the vegetarian who buys a plant-based hamburger, why not buy the real thing and get the full flavor. Rant over. When I'm talking with people that are not into the idea, my big selling point is that it's just a good car. And the EV is just another type of engine. There's gas, there's diesel, there's propane, there's natural gas, and there's electric. Don't buy an EV to save the world. Buy it because it's a good car. If one is looking at a BMW 3-series, or Audi A4 or similar, then go look at a Mach-E Premium. It's just that good. Honda Accord? Toyota Camry? Go try a Mach-E Select. Go try the Tesla too. It's a great driving car, but the fit and finish could be better, which I feel really lets it down. There are a few tradeoffs with an EV. You brought one up, and that is that sometimes you need to adjust your travel plans so that you can swing into a charging station for a bit. But really, is that much different than having to go find a gas station when on a roadtrip? A big difference is that the EV will tell you where to "fuel up." The power gird...well...I'm not touching that here, otherwise this thread will get shut down and I'll have to give myself a 30 day ban. The piped in engine noises are silly. EV manufacturers can pipe in all the engine sounds they want, but none will match the sounds of a rumbling V8. The Mach-E has them, and I think it's just dumb. Besides, I think it's more impressive to blast along in near silence. Having lived with an EV in the garage for about 5 months now, I can say that it's been very easy to adjust to. And it really hasn't been that much of an adjustment. And I like that I haven't had to go to a gas station in my own vehicle for about 5 months now. I traded out on the Mach E about a month ago and have a Lightning now. My previous F150 had the 5.0L and it was about $190 to fill the tank, four times a month, so right off the bat, That's roughly $800 a month I'm not spending. Our electricity bills have gone up since getting an EV, but it's less than a $10 month increase. Roughly. July was higher, but it was hot and we had the AC pumping 24/7 as well, so that's a bigger part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamsuperdan Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 9 hours ago, Rodent said: There is a pair of Ford dealerships owned by the same people near me, and one is a "commercial center (centre)". Oddly, they have about white 15 Mach-Es in the front. I guess someone ordered them for a fleet, but they seem kind of expensive for a government purchase. Local WalMart has an eTransit delivery vehicle, but it is unclear where they charge it unless it is behind the building. The reserved parking spot it lives in when not being used does not have a charger. The base model Mach-E is about $60k CDN. And it qualifies for the government's rebate program, so knock about $5000 of of that number. Plus Ford has a rebate. Now if the fleet customer is what Ford calls "Major National" then they get some pretty sweet pricing from the dealers. Instead of the retail style of MSRP less a discount. These MN clients pay invoice, plus a minimal markup. Realistically, one of my Major National clients could get that $60k Mach-E Select for under $50k. Factor in fuel savings and these can start to make sense for fleets. Depending on usage of course. Especially these days, when a Ford Escape can cost over $50k CDN. We have actual sold a few Mach-E and Lightning to government branches. Partially because they want to test them and see if they work, and partially because it's a PR thing. "Look, we're green!" and all that. The eTransit was a little more challenging of a sell at first, mainly because at best the range is 200km to a charge. But municipalities like them because they rarely do over 100km in a day. Same for some delivery companies. Depending o ntheir delivery area, under 200km a day works. Again, not for everyone, but perfect for some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike 1017 Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 Can you lease an EV for 3 years ? Then get rid of it at the end of the lease if it does not perform as advertised? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamsuperdan Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 I know you can with Fords. Can't imagine the other brands would be any different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John M. Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 I've read reports that say it cost anywhere from $8000 to $10,000 to replace the batteries in the EVs and some hybrids such as the Toyota Prius. For half that much, sticking a rebuilt 350 Chevy small block and 350 Turbo tranny into any Bow Tie such as a mid to late 80s Caprice is a far better deal. I'll go with the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamsuperdan Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 Why would anyone need to be out of pocket for a battery pack though? Depending on the brand, you have 8 to 10 years or 100,000 miles warranty coverage on batteries and EV components. By the time that warranty is done, the costs will be way down for replacements. Unless someone damages their EV somehow, and they don't have insurance coverage, I can't see why anyone would need to pay for one. Laptop batteries used to cost hundreds, now you can get a replacement with more capacity that your original for under $50. Same with cell phone batteries, and even those button cell batteries. Costs on those used to be ridiculous, now they're dirt cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TarheelRick Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 4 hours ago, iamsuperdan said: But really, is that much different than having to go find a gas station when on a roadtrip? More than likely you will pass more than one gas station before you get to a charging station, especially out in the open country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamsuperdan Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 1 hour ago, TarheelRick said: More than likely you will pass more than one gas station before you get to a charging station, especially out in the open country. True, but the guy in that article admitted that he passed several charging stations before ultimately choosing the one he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack L Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 Just talked to the Amazon driver, a younger man he said 180 miles max to a charge. He said the best part was the seat . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTrucker Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 Wife has a cousin who is the sales department at the Ford dealer here. They have lost some long established customers over them refusing to take their own vehicles back in trade! He said they can't sell a used one said the few they did take in the beginning they had to take a huge hit on therm selling them to other dealers. Their dealership will only sell an EV on prepaid orders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamsuperdan Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Jack L said: Just talked to the Amazon driver, a younger man he said 180 miles max to a charge. He said the best part was the seat . Is that one of the Rivian vans they use? Amazon aren't using those up here in the Great White North yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamsuperdan Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 2 hours ago, OldTrucker said: Wife has a cousin who is the sales department at the Ford dealer here. They have lost some long established customers over them refusing to take their own vehicles back in trade! He said they can't sell a used one said the few they did take in the beginning they had to take a huge hit on therm selling them to other dealers. Their dealership will only sell an EV on prepaid orders. It's a regional thing for sure. I'm actually surprised that we do well with them here, because Alberta is oil/gas country. Haven't actually seen any of them come back to our used lot yet. Our store actually paid the $$$ to become Model E Elite certified, meaning that we will be one of Ford's top tier EV stores. That means we have to keep inventory. And have no caps on ordering. There are a few local stores that gladly give up their EV stock. Normally, we dealer trade. We want their unit, they take one of ours back. But with these EVs, especially the eTransit, dealers are just telling us we can have their vans, no need to trade back. Suits us just fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Zipper Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbill Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 I think as range increases, and more charging stations become available, they will become more mainstream. Currently, I don’t think ‘we’ are the target demographic, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSheep214 Posted August 26, 2023 Author Share Posted August 26, 2023 17 hours ago, Jack L said: Just talked to the Amazon driver, a younger man he said 180 miles max to a charge. He said the best part was the seat . Pffttt… I get close to 325 miles on a tank full of gas on my Kona. That’s like comparing apples to oranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack L Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 16 hours ago, iamsuperdan said: Is that one of the Rivian vans they use? Amazon aren't using those up here in the Great White North yet. yes it was a Rivian . The hub it works out of is 25 miles from me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack L Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 1 hour ago, BlackSheep214 said: Pffttt… I get close to 325 miles on a tank full of gas on my Kona. That’s like comparing apples to oranges. Yes I get around 400 miles in my Colorado I can stop at a store and fill up but the Rivian runs out of charge is done for the day not like they will pay him to sit at a charger It does not take long to go 200 miles out here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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