2024 Cannonball Run theme ideas thread?

[kermn8r]

I have a build in mind that could easily meet Bill or Enzo's suggestions, so these comments won't affect my build but may help others. For the Mopar crowd a restriction to bolt on parts could restrict a very popular 1:1 restomod modification, i.e. replacing the torsion bar front suspension with a coil over from AlterKation or similar. I might be overthinking this but subframe connectors can be bolt in or weld in. The welded ones are more effective but is the difference important in scale. I would like to see the use of wider wheels/tires with mini tubs allowed, but no flares. Minitubs could be made to look almost factory, but is not a bolt in mod.  Again, I could be overthinking, but I believe the restriction on bolt pattern should actually be a restriction on number of lugs. The main reason is the early Chrysler A bodies came with a 5x4 bolt pattern. It is not unusual to swap in a K-frame from a later A body with a 5x4-1/2 bolt circle to have a wider selection of wheel choices, like 15" & larger.  The rear axles are replaced with aftermarket axles with the larger bolt pattern.  Would shaving the chrome be acceptable as a subtle trim change?  Would a bagged or hydraulic suspension be acceptable if the factory pick up points were used?

[White Rabbit]

17 hours ago, stitchdup said:

with those rules i think it becomes a little too narrow a theme. I would say use them as a minimum level of mods to qualify as a restomod but open them up from there. In past cannonballs people have started with a wide variety of kits and ideas and some pretty wild builds have ensued. Ones that stick in my mind are the twini mini and last years integra with the nsx chassis. Its the cannonball where we get these types of builds because there are less rules and it encourages people to go wilder. Its part of the fun of watching it for the spectators seeing how the theme gets interpreted by entrants. If the rules are too tight we'll just be watching a load of the same car being built, maybe different kits and parts but really its just 10 people building the same thing. If the rules were more open to entrants interpretation we get to see the creativity and crazier (in a good way) ideas coming out and people pushing themselves to build something they wouldn't normally do. Maybe the rules should be has to appear to ba a restomod when parked. I'm not against the rules, I just think they need loosening up or we risk having ten builds that all have the same things done to them because thats all the rules allow and it just doesn't feel like the spirit of the cannonball.

I certainly understand your concern and agree that there should be enough room within the guidelines to allow for a great scope of creativity. Coming from an arts background, I've found that it's also true that some guidelines may actually increase creativity in the sense that it gives greater focus and pushes the builder the think of unique ways of solving a problem while still being within the spirit of the theme. One just needs to look at top-tier racing, like F1 or IMSA, to see how teams find creative solutions within very restrictive regulations (especially in F1). They're not always able to fall back on known paradigms and what has worked in the past. Similarly, for our purposes, builders may find themselves solving a particular problem in a very different way than in the past and gaining a learning experience along the way or finding a solution that would not otherwise have been found.

In the end, all regulations, rules and guidelines are a compromise that may not please everyone. The goal, at least for me, is to craft a set of guidelines that has the least compromise; but it is a compromise just the same. This is why everyone's input is so important so that everyone has a part in the crafting of the guidelines.

[White Rabbit]

Hello all!

So, I just wanted to share some thoughts. The Cannonball should be about fun and building what you like within the chosen theme, not stressing if a small detail is permissible or not. The guidelines are important as they create consistency for the theme, but they are just an outline. That is, the builds should be built with the "spirit" of the theme in mind. This is even more true this year with a theme that has multiple interpretations and a lot of subjectivity involved. Therefore, we should all use our best judgment with modifications.

I reread the guidelines draft I posted earlier, and, actually, it's quite open to interpretation. I intentionally left some points vague, like "...subtle body changes..." so that the builder can decide if a change is too much or just right. In the end, we're building in scale here and it's the believability of the mods that is important so long as they keep within the spirit of the theme and the build.

My goal is that everyone will enjoy the build and not stress over minute details; that's not what the Cannonball is about. We're outlaws, after all! My suggestion is that we all relax, work within the spirit of Restomods, and build something that we'll enjoy. 

[disconovaman]

3 hours ago, White Rabbit said:

My suggestion is that we all relax, work within the spirit of Restomods, and build something that we'll enjoy. 

Well said! And with that we're off to the Workbench!... January 1st of course.? 

 And as Luka always says, "We build models... Because they're fun!"

[Lunajammer]

5 hours ago, White Rabbit said:

The Cannonball should be about fun and building what you like within the chosen theme,

Besides, it's been my experience that it's sort of self regulating in the end. If an entry falls outside the bounds of what everybody else did, it's reflected in the voting.

[oldcarfan]

18 hours ago, White Rabbit said:

I certainly understand your concern and agree that there should be enough room within the guidelines to allow for a great scope of creativity. Coming from an arts background, I've found that it's also true that some guidelines may actually increase creativity in the sense that it gives greater focus and pushes the builder the think of unique ways of solving a problem while still being within the spirit of the theme. One just needs to look at top-tier racing, like F1 or IMSA, to see how teams find creative solutions within very restrictive regulations (especially in F1).

Kind of like Smokey Yunick in NASCAR, always looking to obey the rule if not the letter of the law? Find the grey areas and hand out in them!

[White Rabbit]

8 hours ago, disconovaman said:

Well said! And with that we're off to the Workbench!... January 1st of course.? 

 And as Luka always says, "We build models... Because they're fun!"

Thank you! I'll have the main build thread up in the coming days.

6 hours ago, Lunajammer said:

Besides, it's been my experience that it's sort of self regulating in the end. If an entry falls outside the bounds of what everybody else did, it's reflected in the voting.

Great point! 

 

[White Rabbit]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:34 PM, kermn8r said:

I have a build in mind that could easily meet Bill or Enzo's suggestions, so these comments won't affect my build but may help others. For the Mopar crowd a restriction to bolt on parts could restrict a very popular 1:1 restomod modification, i.e. replacing the torsion bar front suspension with a coil over from AlterKation or similar. I might be overthinking this but subframe connectors can be bolt in or weld in. The welded ones are more effective but is the difference important in scale. I would like to see the use of wider wheels/tires with mini tubs allowed, but no flares. Minitubs could be made to look almost factory, but is not a bolt in mod.  Again, I could be overthinking, but I believe the restriction on bolt pattern should actually be a restriction on number of lugs. The main reason is the early Chrysler A bodies came with a 5x4 bolt pattern. It is not unusual to swap in a K-frame from a later A body with a 5x4-1/2 bolt circle to have a wider selection of wheel choices, like 15" & larger.  The rear axles are replaced with aftermarket axles with the larger bolt pattern.  Would shaving the chrome be acceptable as a subtle trim change?  Would a bagged or hydraulic suspension be acceptable if the factory pick up points were used?

For the final guidelines, and based on your post, I've clarified the bolt pattern point. Indeed, this refers only to number of lugs so that the look still remains within the model range. PCD, especially at 1/24 or 1/25 scale, is really not an issue.

Trim changes should not significantly alter the original looks of the car and is at the builders' discretion of what is in the spirit of the guidelines.

Modern suspensions are permitted with the goal of enhancing street performance (handling, ride quality, comfort and/or safety). Circuit-only, extreme performance systems are not permitted.

[KWT]

any chance of doing a quick runoff vote between Radwood and Restomod?

[tim08]

1 hour ago, KWT said:

any chance of doing a quick runoff vote between Radwood and Restomod?

Something to think about with a few days left

[disconovaman]

3 hours ago, KWT said:

Radwood and Restomod?

No need, Restomod would win... why not start a separate thread for Radwood CBP? We've had some interest in other subjects with the Community here lately. I think there would be enough interest to get something going.  

[Bills72sj]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:49 AM, Tim08 said:

I agree with Beans on this one. Although Bills72sj has the best explanation so far, easiest to understand.  The only things I would change would be the engine swap, ford into chev, dodge into a ford, ect,ect. Anything that would be practical with not too much whittling to do it.  And I don't think they offered spoilers in 1932 from the factory. Just maybe bend a few rules.

I am perfectly happy with mixing engine manufacturers. I was just putting the thought out, to help us decide whether the group prefers one way or the other. If too many people deem it limiting, we can adapt.

[Bills72sj]

On 12/23/2023 at 4:34 PM, kermn8r said:

I have a build in mind that could easily meet Bill or Enzo's suggestions, so these comments won't affect my build but may help others. For the Mopar crowd a restriction to bolt on parts could restrict a very popular 1:1 restomod modification, i.e. replacing the torsion bar front suspension with a coil over from AlterKation or similar. I might be overthinking this but subframe connectors can be bolt in or weld in. The welded ones are more effective but is the difference important in scale. I would like to see the use of wider wheels/tires with mini tubs allowed, but no flares. Minitubs could be made to look almost factory, but is not a bolt in mod.  Again, I could be overthinking, but I believe the restriction on bolt pattern should actually be a restriction on number of lugs. The main reason is the early Chrysler A bodies came with a 5x4 bolt pattern. It is not unusual to swap in a K-frame from a later A body with a 5x4-1/2 bolt circle to have a wider selection of wheel choices, like 15" & larger.  The rear axles are replaced with aftermarket axles with the larger bolt pattern.  Would shaving the chrome be acceptable as a subtle trim change?  Would a bagged or hydraulic suspension be acceptable if the factory pick up points were used?

Walt, a K-frame change is exactly the kind of "hidden" mod I had in mind. Ditto for the mini tubs. Neither would require alteration to the wheel openings of the body and would permit larger wheels and tires. The wheel bolt pattern should not be limited, simply keep the lug nut configuration near the same as the factory. (No "wide 5" dirt track car or F1 single nut configurations). Shaving trim should be acceptable. (Better aero and weight). Changing the suspension type bits is not out of reason.

[Bills72sj]

On 12/23/2023 at 4:34 PM, kermn8r said:

I have a build in mind that could easily meet Bill or Enzo's suggestions, so these comments won't affect my build but may help others. For the Mopar crowd a restriction to bolt on parts could restrict a very popular 1:1 restomod modification, i.e. replacing the torsion bar front suspension with a coil over from AlterKation or similar. I might be overthinking this but subframe connectors can be bolt in or weld in. The welded ones are more effective but is the difference important in scale. I would like to see the use of wider wheels/tires with mini tubs allowed, but no flares. Minitubs could be made to look almost factory, but is not a bolt in mod.  Again, I could be overthinking, but I believe the restriction on bolt pattern should actually be a restriction on number of lugs. The main reason is the early Chrysler A bodies came with a 5x4 bolt pattern. It is not unusual to swap in a K-frame from a later A body with a 5x4-1/2 bolt circle to have a wider selection of wheel choices, like 15" & larger.  The rear axles are replaced with aftermarket axles with the larger bolt pattern.  Would shaving the chrome be acceptable as a subtle trim change?  Would a bagged or hydraulic suspension be acceptable if the factory pick up points were used?

Walt, a K-frame change is exactly the kind of "hidden" mod I had in mind. Ditto for the mini tubs. Neither would require alteration to the wheel openings of the body and would permit larger wheels and tires. The wheel bolt pattern should not be limited, simply keep the lug nut configuration near the same as the factory. (No "wide 5" dirt track car or F1 single nut configurations). Shaving trim should be acceptable. (Better aero and weight). Changing the suspension type bits is not out of reason.

[stitchdup]

the wheel nuts should be acceptable to go to centre locks. there are kits bolt on centre lock hubs to most wheels now, and wheel adaptors to convert almost any wheel to fit any bolt pattern in the 1/1 world. its no longer a case of needing race car hubs for cantre locks. The custom vw guys are even converting bolt on wheels to be centrelocks

[Keef]

6 hours ago, Bills72sj said:

Walt, a K-frame change is exactly the kind of "hidden" mod I had in mind. Ditto for the mini tubs. Neither would require alteration to the wheel openings of the body and would permit larger wheels and tires. The wheel bolt pattern should not be limited, simply keep the lug nut configuration near the same as the factory. (No "wide 5" dirt track car or F1 single nut configurations). Shaving trim should be acceptable. (Better aero and weight). Changing the suspension type bits is not out of reason.

Why does this chassis pan look familiar? Bill what have you up your sleeve on this one? ??

[MeatMan]

8 hours ago, Bills72sj said:

Walt, a K-frame change is exactly the kind of "hidden" mod I had in mind. Ditto for the mini tubs. Neither would require alteration to the wheel openings of the body and would permit larger wheels and tires. The wheel bolt pattern should not be limited, simply keep the lug nut configuration near the same as the factory. (No "wide 5" dirt track car or F1 single nut configurations). Shaving trim should be acceptable. (Better aero and weight). Changing the suspension type bits is not out of reason.

 

 

 

Great idea for narrowing a chassis for larger wheels.
I've been tryna figure out ways to narrow the rear part of the chassis on my 59 Ford to look relatively stock but because its full frame the options are few.
Couple that with the fact that it has leaf springs that I want to swap out, and molded-in exhausts presents a whole new challenge, but you give me a new way to look at it. thanks.

Edited December 27, 2023 by MeatMan

[White Rabbit]

13 hours ago, stitchdup said:

the wheel nuts should be acceptable to go to centre locks. there are kits bolt on centre lock hubs to most wheels now, and wheel adaptors to convert almost any wheel to fit any bolt pattern in the 1/1 world. its no longer a case of needing race car hubs for cantre locks. The custom vw guys are even converting bolt on wheels to be centrelocks

Thank you for the information. I've been thinking of the bolt pattern guideline as well. The centerlock wheel that I was thinking of was a full race set-up, however, if there is a steerable aftermarket kit, then that should be acceptable. I will revise this guideline to reflect this change.

Below is the updated guidelines draft. It's fairly similar to the earlier draft with some clarification of language and adjustments made in response to members' posts.

Restomod Specific Guidelines

Classic or vintage vehicles that are twenty (20) years or older; that is, vehicles built from 1903 to 2004 are permitted.

The vehicles must be in restored, like-new condition and modified to enhance street performance (braking, handling, power, safety, comfort, etc.).

1. Body: Mostly stock, with additions and/or changes made with factory offered parts (different trim levels or options)
   1. Subtle trim changes permitted.^
   2. Hoods may be changed.
   3. Circuit-only, extreme performance aerodynamics are not permitted.*
2. Interior: Factory tub with changes made for safety and/or comfort.
   1. Roll bars are permitted, especially for open-top cars.
   2. Full roll cages are not permitted*
3. Chassis: OEM chassis that the car was manufactured with.
4. Suspension: Modern upgrades permitted (i.e.: independent suspension)
   1. Circuit-only, extreme performance-type suspension is not permitted.
5. Brakes: Disc brake conversions permitted.
   1. Period-correct or modern OEM systems
   2. Aftermarket street systems (Wilwood, Brembo, etc.)
   3. Street pads
   4. Circuit-only, extreme performance brakes are not permitted
6. Wheels and Tires: Open
   1. Bolt pattern and hubs should be in a street configuration, both OEM and aftermarket.
   2. No body modifications permitted to fit the wheels (fender flares, etc.).*
   3. Subtle adjustments, such as fender lip rolling or minor chassis adjustments may be permitted.
   4. Tires must be street legal
7. Engine and Transmission: Open to production engines and OEM or aftermarket transmissions (manual, semi-automatic, and automatic).
   1. Modifications should be to enhance performance and drivability; not for extreme, peak-performance.
   2. Engine swaps are permitted. Ideally, these would be within the same brand as the chassis.
   3. No race engine or transmission swaps or builds (IMSA, NASCAR, etc.). 
   4. Forced induction is permitted for increased power, but not for peak-power and torque. Again, drivability should be the focus.
8. Paint/Livery: Open

The builder should use their best judgment of what is within the spirit of the theme and guidelines.

^Trim changes should not significantly alter the original looks of the car and is at the builder’s judgment of what is in the spirit of the guidelines.

*Exception: if non-permitted parts were originally offered from the manufacturer on different trim levels or as parts-counter options.

[Bills72sj]

10 hours ago, MeatMan said:

Great idea for narrowing a chassis for larger wheels.
I've been tryna figure out ways to narrow the rear part of the chassis on my 59 Ford to look relatively stock but because its full frame the options are few.
Couple that with the fact that it has leaf springs that I want to swap out, and molded-in exhausts presents a whole new challenge, but you give me a new way to look at it. thanks.

I am happy to help. I wanted to add 9" slicks to my 67 Mustang GT but still use the factory leaf springs and shocks. I was also trying to minimize the intrusion into the interior. Strategic strip removal accomplish my goals. The challenging part was the 427 SOHC motor in the dinky engine bay. Here is a link to the build.

 

[Fat Brian]

I've got my parts ready, I'm just waiting on the 1st. 

[atomicholiday]

It's between two kits for me.   And I'll probably add a few aftermarket goodies. 

[oldcarfan]

I look at Detroit Speed for my definition of a RestoMod. They offer a lot of bolt on go-fast parts including subframes.

[53gmc]

Whats the rule on fuel systems? Can i use a fuel cell or is it stock tank only?

[KWT]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:08 PM, disconovaman said:

No need, Restomod would win... why not start a separate thread for Radwood CBP? We've had some interest in other subjects with the Community here lately. I think there would be enough interest to get something going.  

No I'm good with it being what it is... more of joke really.

[Fat Brian]

2 hours ago, 53gmc said:

Whats the rule on fuel systems? Can i use a fuel cell or is it stock tank only?

I would imagine Cannonball rules take over at this point since increased fuel capacity is a common Cannonball mod.