Lathe?

[atomicholiday]

Anyone here have a lathe that you’re using for model building?  I’ve been thinking of looking into something small and reasonably priced.

Thoughts? Opinions? Recommendations?

[Aaronw]

Yes, but be aware it can be a rabbit hole. It starts with a lathe, and then you want a vertical mill. Then you get tired of cutting your stock by hand so you find yourself looking at bandsaws and power hacksaws.

Don't know where you are coming from, but some lathe basics. Lathes are "rated" by swing and distance between centers. Swing is the largest diameter (in the USA, some countries like the UK use the radius) that can be turned at the spindle. This is a theoretical maximum, about 1/2 this diameter is more realistic for most operations.

Distance between centers is basically how long of a part the lathe can work. Again kind of theoretical as most people these days are going to use a chuck, not turn between centers. The chuck will eat up some of this available space, and any tooling used in the tail stock drill, taps etc will also take away length available.  

 

There are literally dozens if not hundreds of small lathes out there, but this is a list of the usual suspects:

 

Emco Unimat DB200, SL1000 and Unimat 3, Austrian made from the 1950s to the late 80s. These are very small lathes 2.5-3" swing and 6-7" between centers that are popular with model railroaders and model makers. Need about 1x2 feet of working area and weigh 20-30lbs.

These are often recommended as they are popular and used to be pretty inexpensive on the used market. Since they have been out of production for 30+ years they are starting to become collectable, driving the prices up and making them a lot less of a bargain. Used to be you could pick up a decent one for $200-300, but now much more common to see them asking $500-1000+ and they are all old, the last ones were sold about 1990, 34 years ago. A positive for these is they are combination machines so with the right parts you can use them as a lathe or a milling machine / drill press. Parts and accessories are getting expensive.

 

 

Taig Micro Lathe II. Taig is made in USA (Arizona) and is one of the more affordable options. 4.5" swing and 9.5" between centers so a bit larger than the Unimats, but still weigh 30-40lbs. These have been around since the 1970s and are still in production. Taig also makes small milling machines and you have the option of manual or buying one set up for CNC (computer control). You can get a basic set up from Taig for around $500.

Carter tools is a Taig dealer who has a much more user friendly website than the official Taig site.

Taig

Carter Tools

 

 

Sherline offers several small lathes and milling machines. Also made in USA (Southern California) these are more expensive than Taig, but in my opinion also more refined. Sherline offers a ton of accessories for their machines. Looking at around $900 for a basic set up on the entry level 3.5" swing, 8" between centers Model 4000. Sherline offers some really good value package deals with additional accessories, but you can quickly find yourself spending $1200-1500. Like the others weight is 30-40lbs.

Sherline uses a variable speed motor which allows speed changes by turning a dial. Taig and Unimat use belts and pullies so speed changes are a little more work. Like Taig you can buy manual or CNC versions up to full CNC set ups with the computer and software.

Sherline is very popular with model makers, I'd guess a survey of members of this site who own lathes would find Sherline in front by a large margin. In my opinion the long bed Sherline Model 4400 with 17" between centers is one of the best options if you can make it fit your budget and space. You quickly run out of length on small lathes and that 17" between centers puts the Model 4400 way ahead of the others in this area.

Sears sold these for a few years in the 1980s, so you will occasionally run across a used Sherline marked as Craftsman. These usually have a brass bed instead of steel, but parts from new ones will mostly fit the early ones.

Sherline

 

 

The other major contender is the Chinese mini-lathe which comes in sizes from 7x10 (really 7x8"), 7x12, 7x14 and 7x16. These can be good lathes, but quality control is spotty requiring many buyers to do a fair bit of work to get them running well. Prices are all over the place, there are sellers on Ebay selling as low as $450, and reputable vendors selling them for $800-1200+. Prices are not real clear cut, some are selling stripped down machines with almost no tooling, and some of the more expensive include popular upgrades and more tooling like a steady rest and follow rest. Like Sherline these are variable speed lathes. There are good features to these lathes, and many people do good work with them, but be prepared to tinker. These are also much heavier than the others weighing around 100lbs.

Harbor Freight sells 7x10" and 7x12" versions

Grizzly sells 7x12 and 7x14"

Little Machine Shop sells a 7x14" and an upgraded 7x16" 

 

Lots of other sellers, Vevor, Eastwood, Northern Tool, King, Princess Auto. Almost all come from the same factory, but they are not identical with the different sellers choosing from a variety of options.

 

 

 

Another older lathe that I see mentioned less frequently on model sites are the Atlas 6x18" lathes. These are a bit larger and heavier than the others (150lbs), but you can often find them for a good price and they are solid little lathes with more features and better low speed power than most of the others I've mentioned. Speed is controlled with belts and pullies. There are two primary versions, the older (1940s-1970s) Atlas 618 with Art Deco styling, and the later (1970s-early 80s) 3950 often called the Mk 2 with a more modern looking blocky shape. Thousands of these lathes were sold, many through Sears under the Craftsman brand. Not unusual to find one for $500-700, but the used market is highly variable by geographic location. If you do look for one of these though do be aware Sears sold another much lower quality lathe under the Craftsman and Dunlop brands in the 1940s, these have a model number starting with 109. The better Atlas made lathes sold as Craftsman had model numbers starting with 101. Like Unimat, the used market is your only option for these since production ended in the early 1980s.

 

 

 

 

 

This is a huge can of worms, but this should give you a starting point.

Edited February 3 by Aaronw

[Pete J.]

I will vote for the Sherline.  Why? Because I live about 20 minutes from the Factory and If I need something, there is no waiting(except for the paycheck to come in).  

Now that I have cleared that up, I have been using a Sherline for better than 10 years love the precision I can get.  The latest accessory I added was a digital read out system.  That relieves the brain of some of the effort of machining, ( did turn the wheel 5 times or 6?)  I have both a mill and lathe and have it setup so I can swap the head out and use it on both.   That was a dollar saver for me.  
  You can get these machines fully set up to be computer driven. 
  Having said that, I started with a basic lathe and learned how to cut my own tools and how to do basic machining on different metals.  All good skills to develop.  They also offer a Hand book that will teach you all the stuff you need to know and aren't aware that you need. 

  Great customer service as well.  You can call their customer service line and talk to a machinist if you have questions or problems.   

[bobss396]

I have had a full size Bridgeport mill since 1988. I still use it often. I have a large Clausing lathe too, but it needs the electrics gone over. I am probably in the market for a Sherline with a DRO.

At work, I had for a long time access to a Hardinge Tool Room Lathe. I had a lot of tools in custom-made holders that went into the turret. I still have them in a cigar box. I ground round drill blanks so I could face, turn and cut off using the same tool. No big cuts, but face off a blank in the collet, hit the Z axis zero and go from there. I could repeat parts easily with the DRO.

When I was at the night CNC machine shop gig, the owner was always helpful if I needed something made on a CNC lathe.

Edited February 3 by bobss396

[bill-e-boy]

Aaron - what an in depth reply. You cover just about everything there is to know about the purchase of a model makers lathe. 

Be aware though - the lathe is the first step. You may find yourself spending as much and probably more than the purchase price on tooling and accessories. Add to that materials for the machining operations. If you buy second hand you and if you are astute you can often get some of these thrown in. Only issue with second hand market is that some of these machines can be abused or just plain worn out. If used only for hobby work the wear will be less but condition may be an issue.

I have a Unimat 3 with a milling head that I rarely use. I have a larger mill that I prefer to use even with small stuff. I bought this second hand and I was fortunate that it came with a lot of Unimat and other accessories.

There a number of guys on the forum using lathes and mills for scratch building stuff for their models to be more realistic. 

And it is fun

 

 

[Straightliner59]

I have both a Sherline lathe and mill. I have only really started "working" the mill, in the last few years, inspired by a few guys on this board. I've spent a lot of money on accessories for both machines. Those can easily add up to the price of a base machine, like Bill said. If you're serious about scratchbuilding, I would certainly recommend them. 

[Pete J.]

Here is another piece of the puzzle.  You will need some precision measuring tools like calipers and micrometers.  You can buy the inexpensive stuff, but it is iffy.  Starrett, Lufkin, and Sumitomo make the best tools.  What I do is look on eBay for used Starrett tool.  If they are broken, that is ok.  Starrett tool has a "rebuilding service"  to completely refurbish any of there tools.  You can buy them cheap on line and send them in to Starrett and they will send you back a tool in perfect working order for a reasonable cost.   That is how I collected all of my fine measuring equipment. 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

About 5 years ago, I bought a vintage Unimat well after they became "collectible", but when adjusted for inflation, it cost about as much in real buying-power as it would have new in the 1960s. I'd wanted one since I first saw them advertised in the model train mags way back then for around $100, but had no real need for it after I quit hobby-modeling around 1970, but I have had a full-size mill and lathe for my full-scale work since 1995.

It was barely, if ever, used, and came complete in the box with an excellent manual, almost identical to the one below. With a few extra accessories and upgrades purchased later, I have about $1500 in the Unimat at this point.

It is a very high quality tool, made in Austria (old-school "German" craftsmanship) and with proper care and maintenance should last forever.

It easily converts to a vertical mill with parts that are in the box, but to use it as a mill requires cutters that are not part of the basic set.

There's a sizable community of Unimat enthusiasts, some of whom manufacture accessories and replacement parts (like urethane drive belts, as the rubber ones are all useless by now). Speeds are adjusted by swapping belts on various sized pulleys that are included. Lower speeds are preferable for most thermoplastics to prevent melting of the work surface.

Once you have an understanding of machining operations, you will discover that many accessories made for other machine tools can be adapted to work perfectly with the little Unimat, too.

I use it in lathe-mode most frequently to modify kit wheels to give me exactly what I need for a given situation.

 

It is not very powerful, or rigid enough to make heavy cuts, and if you try to rush your work by cutting too aggressively, it won't like you.

There are many videos available on YT about these things, so you can get a very good idea of exactly what they will...and won't...do.

And one word of warning...the really inexpensive "offshore" miniature machine tools are mostly plastic trash, more toys than precision equipment.

 

 

Edited February 4 by Ace-Garageguy

[bobss396]

Tooling up a lathe can get out of hand. I plan on using a 4 position turret once I get one. I'll have to settle on a tool blank size and consider carbide inserts if they are available. Or you have to be able to grind tools yourself. A DRO would be nice, or you have to keep track of "how many turns" of the dial. Some bigger turret lathes I worked on had stops, not that accurate.

I worked for about 5 years in a R&D shop that did a fair amount of tiny very precise work. We had a small Levin lathe, takes the same collet size as the Sherline. The smallest hole I ever drilled was .006". We had guys that drilled smaller holes in ceramics on tiny precision drill presses, all with diamond drills. Not something you'd see in an MSC catalog.

[peteski]

Another happy Sherline user here (for over 30 years).  What is great about Sheline (besides that it's made in USA), is its modular construction.  I started with a plain lathe, then later  added a vertical milling column to easily convert it into small milling machine and back to lathe.  Several years later, I sent that vert. milling column to be installed on the XY table they use for their standard milling machine. I also bought a second spindle assy. with the motor to end up with a complete milling machine which cost me less than buying a complete mill from Sherline.  Oh, my original lathe came with an AC motor, and when they came out with a new more powerful and smoother DC motor, I was able to upgrade the AC motor to DC.  The modular construction can't be beat.  You can upgrade as the time goes by. They also have huge array of accessories and adapters.

[atomicholiday]

@Aaronw Wow, thank you (and everyone else who chimed in too) for the very comprehensive reply.

You guys have given me a lot to think over.  I may be over my head, but I think I may start looking for one of the brand recommendations above on the used market for a while and see what turns up.

Working as a metrologist in the automotive industry since the early 90’s, I’ve learned that one of the most important and undervalued people in any plant is the tool maker.  It’s always fascinating to me that these guys can take a chunk of metal and turn it into just about anything they want.

I’ve had the pleasure of working with several really good tool makers over the years.  Might be time to get my hands dirty.

[Ace-Garageguy]

47 minutes ago, atomicholiday said:

...I’ve learned that one of the most important and undervalued people in any plant is the tool maker.  It’s always fascinating to me that these guys can take a chunk of metal and turn it into just about anything they want.

I’ve had the pleasure of working with several really good tool makers over the years.  Might be time to get my hands dirty.

Machinists are definitely undervalued by the majority of the clueless public, but a guy who can do old-school hands-on (no CNC) can command a comfortable low 6-figure income today.

Someone who can do old-school as well as CAD and CNC programming can earn considerably more.

Taking a piece of raw metal stock and shaping it into a functional part that didn't exist previously is one of the most satisfying experiences I've ever had.

There's something indescribably wonderful about starting with an idea in your head, then a "napkin" sketch to hold the idea, doing engineering drawings from that, going to the machines to make the parts, and assembling said parts into something that goes click or bang or vroom or whoosh...or just looks cool sitting there doing nothing.  

 

Edited February 4 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

Relating to my post immediately above...

Something that company management often fails to realize is that a guy who can work old-school from "napkin sketches" can considerably speed the development process from concept to full production in some cases.

To be able to efficiently whip out a single prototype for testing or visual evaluation bypasses the need to develop drawings (CAD or otherwise) and write CNC programming. If the first prototype isn't quite right, make another one in much less time than it would take to revise the CAD and CNC work.

Then, when you have a prototype part or assembly that works right, you just copy it into your production CAD and CNC work, once, and done.

Similar case in point: when Singer was developing the beautiful carbon flares for the tail of one of the earlier 911 refits, they spent a whole LOT of money going back and forth from CAD to CNC-milling full-scale parts, installing them on a car, looking at them from every angle in reality, deciding they needed revisions, over and over several times.

One guy who could have sculpted the original shape on a car for visual evaluation and tuning to hit the sweet spot (that production molds could have been taken from directly) could have saved the company many thousands of up-front development dollars.

Finding that one guy is the tricky bit.  

EDIT: That "one guy" doesn't need to do both sides perfectly, either. Get one side dead-on and in today's world, you can scan it, turn it inside-out digitally for the other side, and cut your mirror-image plug to pull your mold from (or cut your stamping dies, whatever).

Knowing how to best employ old-school and new-school techniques to complement each other can significantly maximize product-development "throughput", but it takes some hands-on in-shop experience to get the feel for mixing the two...and a lot of management people lack any hands-on experience whatsoever.

Edited February 5 by Ace-Garageguy

[NOBLNG]

I bought one of the cheap Chinese ones. It was my first experience using a lathe and I have very little experience with it. I did disassemble and reassemble it and made a few small improvements like adding a quick change tool post. At one point I managed to jam it and blew something in the electronics.🤬 I had a millwright buddy take a look at it and we were unable to pinpoint the defective part. And there it sits.😕 If I ever come across a used Unimat or Sherline at a decent price I’ll grab it.

Edit: I know Little Machine Shop and others sell replacement parts…I just haven’t gotten around to it yet.

Edited February 4 by NOBLNG

[peteski]

Another thing about Sherlines is that they are what I consider "hobbyist's workbench size".  They are small and light enough to be easily moved around if needed.  I actually have my lathe and mill bolted to wooden bases with rubber feet, so they are quite portable (as my workbench space is at premium). That way I can have either lathe or mill on the workbench when the other one sits on a shelf.  Unimat would be in the same category.  

Other lathes or mills, even small ones can be quite bulky and heavy. Yes, they are also more powerful than Sherline, but for my needs (small usually plastic, aluminum or brass parts), I don't need much power.

Edited February 5 by peteski

[Aaronw]

5 hours ago, atomicholiday said:

@Aaronw Wow, thank you (and everyone else who chimed in too) for the very comprehensive reply.

You guys have given me a lot to think over.  I may be over my head, but I think I may start looking for one of the brand recommendations above on the used market for a while and see what turns up.

Working as a metrologist in the automotive industry since the early 90’s, I’ve learned that one of the most important and undervalued people in any plant is the tool maker.  It’s always fascinating to me that these guys can take a chunk of metal and turn it into just about anything they want.

I’ve had the pleasure of working with several really good tool makers over the years.  Might be time to get my hands dirty.

 

Funny you say that. I bought my Sherline to make model parts. I've made some parts, but really not a lot. What I've done a lot more of is make tools (some for modelling) and fix things around the house. Having a lathe is super handy. We had to replace a TV, and the new TV did not fit the old mount. 30 minutes at the lathe and I had cut down the spacers and bolts to fit the new TV. I had a co-worker who had a sentimental (but kind of cheap) key lanyard that failed. I took it home and was able to make a new fitting to repair it.

These other uses are what led me to bigger machines. I've spent an inordinate amount of time fixing up vintage machines instead of building models... Like I said, it can be a rabbit hole, but it is fun and they are really nice tools to have available.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Couple points I didn't make earlier:

1) There are times I kinda wish I'd bought a Sherline instead of the Unimat SL.

The Sherline is definitely a more powerful, more capable machine. BUT...because I had full size machines already, I figured that whatever the little Unimat couldn't handle, the big girls could...and that's been the case.

2) The Unimat SL is a jewel though, and I find it's perfectly adequate for anything model-related I've asked it to do. I've also made a couple of real-car parts on it, and though you can't do aggressive cuts (as I mentioned earlier), if you're patient and kind with it, you might be surprised how well it performs. Still, for anything full-scale, the Sherline is the better choice if you only have one lathe.

3) IIRC, Gerald Wingrove relied on a Unimat SL. And when I was a kid. I vividly recall all the old geezers (anybody over 40) making exquisite HO-scale steam engines with them. So there's that.  

[Ace-Garageguy]

More about Unimats...the newer they are, the cheaper they are. Hand-wheels went from being metal to being plastic, for example. And beds went from being one solid piece of cast-iron to being an assemblage of parts, not as rigid.

The Austrian-made ones like my tubular-bed DL are superior (in my mind, anyway) to the later Asian-made units. And the Austrian-made units earlier than mine, particularly the early ones with full cast-iron beds, are superior to mine.

[Aaronw]

4 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Couple points I didn't make earlier:

1) There are times I kinda wish I'd bought a Sherline instead of the Unimat SL.

The Sherline is definitely a more powerful, more capable machine. BUT...because I had full size machines already, I figured that whatever the little Unimat couldn't handle, the big girls could...and that's been the case.

2) The Unimat SL is a jewel though, and I find it's perfectly adequate for anything model-related I've asked it to do. I've also made a couple of real-car parts on it, and though you can't do aggressive cuts (as I mentioned earlier), if you're patient and kind with it, you might be surprised how well it performs. Still, for anything full-scale, the Sherline is the better choice if you only have one lathe.

3) IIRC, Gerald Wingrove relied on a Unimat SL. And when I was a kid. I vividly recall all the old geezers (anybody over 40) making exquisite HO-scale steam engines with them. So there's that.  

 

One thing the Unimats really have going for them is they are very small but still capable. The SL like yours is only about 1/2 the foot print of even the short Sherline lathe. 

 

[Straightliner59]

My first lathe was an old Unimat, identical to the one Bill posted, above. I've had the Sherlines (mill and lathe) for a little over 20 years, now. The Unimat did a great job, but, I sold it when I needed some cash. The Sherline lathe definitely has more rigidity. I wanted to buy both machines, because I have always wanted to make as many of my own parts as I can. I used them in conjunction, and was able to make aluminum AN fittings for my Nostalgia Top Fueler. I use the lathe to bore Plastruct hex for nuts, and fittings, as well. I machined the pop-off plate for the blower manifold. While machines are a large investment, I would recommend them, for serious scratchbuilders. Start with the lathe--you'll be amazed at the possibilities even that will open, for you!

[bobss396]

I worked in that R&D shop, almost everything was manual except for a balky NC mill we used to rough out repetitive parts. All of our "shop sketches" were made on the back of old report pads that accounting saved for us. That and a calculator. A lot of "old" guys did not trust a calculator and would have columns of calculations. One great sheet metal guy didn't know trig, I offered to teach him, but he would make up sample pieces, trial and error.

I used to catch flak from one foreman. I would photocopy print details and figure out all my numbers for roughing and finishing. He said it was a waste of time. At my longest night machine shop gig, I would break down complex parts into a series of sketches, it made the process a lot easier, less errors. I talked the owner into creating part files so we didn't have to figure it out again.

One famous local stock car was designed on cocktail napkins at a watering hole. Then the sketches went over to the Grumman facility, the night shift cranked out the machined parts. The car was a work of art and was fast.

[Ulf]

Anyone who has experience with the Proxxon Micromot FD 150/E Lathe ?

[Straightliner59]

I have no experience with them, but, I have read good things. Most complaints I've heard could be attributed to overworking the machine. I think they'd probably be quite useful, for a modeler.

[peteski]

Proxxon tools are decent hobby grade tools.  I have some of them (not the lathe) and they are usable.  From what I see, the hollow extruded aluminum bed and rails will not be as rigid as the steel one on Sherline, but should be sufficient for most hobby needs (machining relatively soft materials).

[atomicholiday]

So let me ask you guys this.  What are the really small lathes you see watch makers using ?  Maybe I’m not even thinking of an actual lathe?

I saw one recently that was belt driven, and the motor sat behind the machine.

Edited February 5 by atomicholiday