Looking For A Special Glue

[oldcarfan]

10 hours ago, peteski said:

If the slippery plastic parts you found could be very useful, you could make RTV rubber molds from them and then make urethane reins copies (which then could be handled like other resin cast parts), Urethene resin is glueable and paintable.

I'm now thinking this is the way for some pieces. I have an Alumilite kit I bought from HL last year and packed away. If it's still good, I may try making copies.

[StevenGuthmiller]

On 2/29/2024 at 10:21 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

, but the 5-minute stuff is a complete waste of time.

That might be the case if you’re planning on gluing a few things together and then throwing it across the room a few times, but if you are gluing together a model, handling it as you normally would a model car, and placing it on a shelf, 5 minute epoxy is more than adequate.

I use 5 minute epoxy for the majority of my assemblies, and in my experience, it’ seems to be a much stronger bond than a good number of the glues used in model building, with a few exceptions.

How it would perform on the plastic in question I don’t know, but in general, it certainly holds better than most CA, UV setting or clear parts glues without question.

Believe me, I’ve had the pleasure of trying to pry apart parts glued together with 5 minute epoxy on a number of occasions.

Not an easy task by any stretch.

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited March 3 by StevenGuthmiller

[Bugatti Fan]

There are so many different adhesives out there.  It is always a matter of selecting the right one for the job that you are happy witn.

Most of us I guess will probably have a selection of different types at our disposal.

Horses for courses as the saying goes !

Edited March 3 by Bugatti Fan

[Ace-Garageguy]

7 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

That might be the case if you’re planning on gluing a few things together and then throwing it across the room a few times, but if you are gluing together a model, handling it as you normally would a model car, and placing it on a shelf, 5 minute epoxy is more than adequate.

I use 5 minute epoxy for the majority of my assemblies, and in my experience, it’ seems to be a much stronger bond than a good number of the glues used in model building, with a few exceptions.

How it would perform on the plastic in question I don’t know, but in general, it certainly holds better than most CA, UV setting or clear parts glues without question.

Believe me, I’ve had the pleasure of trying to pry apart parts glued together with 5 minute epoxy on a number of occasions.

In all honesty, I've never used 5-minute epoxy for modeling...and probably never will.

I HAVE, however, used it on real-world projects, often enough to have found it to be so inconsistent in performance as to be useless as a long-term adhesive solution, and I only resort to it for temporary Q&D fixturing...essentially where I need a "third hand".

In many cases, it's been possible to peel the stuff off with a fingernail, with about the fully-cured permanence of white PVA glue.

I wouldn't trust it for anything critical, or anything I expected to last indefinitely.

I have seen posts by modelers who've used it for top-chop and sectioning jobs, where the work has to be handled and stressed during subsequent bodywork, and who have been disappointed when the joints they've made with it failed under the bodywork they tried to do over it. Though these failures may have had more to do with factors other than the inadequacy of the 5-minute stuff itself, they're still a red flag to my way of thinking.

In addition, the OP's question concerned bonding material he'd already identified as being difficult to bond, and in my real-world experience, I've found even some very expensive adhesives and procedures engineered specifically for "difficult-to-bond" materials to be marginal at best, so I couldn't in good conscience recommend a cheap consumer-grade product that has given me too many poor results on ordinary materials.

But that's just an overcautious-old-fart talking.  

Edited March 3 by Ace-Garageguy

[peteski]

23 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

Depends on how many identical ones you need to justify it Pete.       RTV and all that is a bit pricey.    If they all differ then using the plastic card would be more viable.

That is very dependent on how badly you need that single part, and how much hobby budget you have.

Edited March 3 by peteski

[StevenGuthmiller]

5 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

In all honesty, I've never used 5-minute epoxy for modeling...and probably never will.

I HAVE, however, used it on real-world projects, often enough to have found it to be so inconsistent in performance as to be useless as a long-term adhesive solution, and I only resort to it for temporary Q&D fixturing...essentially where I need a "third hand".

In many cases, it's been possible to peel the stuff off with a fingernail, with about the fully-cured permanence of white PVA glue.

I wouldn't trust it for anything critical, or anything I expected to last indefinitely.

I have seen posts by modelers who've used it for top-chop and sectioning jobs, where the work has to be handled and stressed during subsequent bodywork, and who have been disappointed when the joints they've made with it failed under the bodywork they tried to do over it. Though these failures may have had more to do with factors other than the inadequacy of the 5-minute stuff itself, they're still a red flag to my way of thinking.

In addition, the OP's question concerned bonding material he'd already identified as being difficult to bond, and in my real-world experience, I've found even some very expensive adhesives and procedures engineered specifically for "difficult-to-bond" materials to be marginal at best, so I couldn't in good conscience recommend a cheap consumer-grade product that has given me too many poor results on ordinary materials.

But that's just an overcautious-old-fart talking.  

I understand your reluctance to recommend solutions for something that none of us are really sure about, but, the OP is looking for recommendations, and all that we can do is suggest what we have experience with.

 

That said, I have, and always will, endorse 5 minute epoxy as a superior adhesive alternative over most of the glue types used by modelers today.

I can certainly see how epoxy would not be the best solution for chopping and sectioning, but I guess I just assumed that anybody doing those sorts of modifications on bare styrene plastic would be smart enough to know that a good plastic cement, or MEK based glue would be the very obvious choice for those kinds of operations.

I use epoxy primarily as a final assembly glue, and believe me, some of those sub assemblies, throughout the course of the final assembly process, get a LOT of very harsh handling!

I very rarely EVER have a part come off as the assembly process progresses, and many of those parts are often nearly microscopic, and get my big mitts all over them possibly hundreds of times as the build advances.

Being able to peel it off with a fingernail as with white glue?........No!

 

In any case, sometimes I get the impression that we often think of a model car as something that's going to be subject to all sorts of rough handling and conditions, which they almost never are.

Just like it's unnecessary to apply a tough weather protecting coating of some sort over a paint job because the model will never be subject to the weather, adhesives that will hold a diesel engine together are completely unnecessary as well, as the average model is going to see very little "action" in it's life time, other than an occasional move from one shelf to another, or an odd dusting or two.

 

I have many models in my collection that have been nearly completely assembled with 2-part, 5 minute epoxy, most of them some years ago, and nearly all of them have taken numerous 400-600 miles, or more, round trips to various shows, been moved, cleaned and generally handled frequently, and to this day, I have never lost a single part, or had an assembly come loose.

Some of those parts, such as some grille and bumper assemblies, have had mounting tabs removed, and are held in place with nothing more than a few drops of epoxy strategically placed between the grille/bumper, and the body.

If there were ever going to be instances where a part were to fall off due to the choice of adhesive, that would be the case.

They most certainly would not have held up to the handling and transportation rigors had they been installed with CA, or a host of other glues.

The only models in my collection that I've ever had to re-glue parts on to in the past 30 years were ones that were assembled using other glues before I began using epoxy. 

 

In the end, I cannot definitively suggest that epoxy will work in the case of the OP's circumstances, but I will absolutely recommend the use of 5 minute epoxy as a final assembly glue with complete confidence, and without hesitation until my final breath.   

 

 

 

Steve

 

Edited March 3 by StevenGuthmiller

[peteski]

4 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

That said, I have, and always will, endorse 5 minute epoxy as a superior adhesive alternative over most of the glue types used by modelers today.

Most glue types?! Are you saying that 5-minute epoxy used for example to join 2 unpainted styrene parts is superior to solvent cement which will permanently fuse (melt) those parts, or even CA glue which also produces very strong joint?

I do use 5-minute epoxy for various tasks, but only when I think it is the best adhesive for a particular type of a joint  I find its adhesion to clean bare plastic far  inferior than welding-types of cement or even CA glue.  5-Minute epoxy can be peeled off fairly easily from styrene ,or any other smooth surface (like metal).

Maybe you found some miracle adhesion 5-minute epoxy?

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 minutes ago, peteski said:

Most glue types?! Are you saying that 5-minute epoxy used for example to join 2 unpainted styrene parts is superior to solvent cement which will permanently fuse (melt) those parts, or even CA glue which also produces very strong joint?

I do use 5-minute epoxy for various tasks, but only when I think it is the best adhesive for a particular type of a joint  I find its adhesion to clean bare plastic far  inferior than welding-types of cement or even CA glue.  5-Minute epoxy can be peeled off fairly easily from styrene ,or any other smooth surface (like metal).

Maybe you found some miracle adhesion 5-minute epoxy?

If you read the entire post you'll see that I'm talking about glues for final assembly.

I mentioned MEK in the post, and it is absolutely my choice as well for assemblies prior to paint.

 

No, it's no miracle epoxy.

Just simple JB Weld "Plastic Weld".

 

The beginnings of my prolific use of epoxy actually had it's zenith come from the realization that I needed something more viable for gluing in glass than the usual characters.

Most clear parts glues are nothing more than glorified Elmer's, and CA is a disaster waiting to happen on clear parts, chrome or paint in my opinion.

I needed something with a strong bond that would set relatively quickly, and wouldn't potentially destroy everything around it.

Once I discovered that epoxy was the way to go for clear parts, it quickly became apparent to me that it would work as well, or better, than the majority of what I was using prior for all of my other assembly purposes, and being all about stream lining, I decided that there was no need to keep 15 different adhesives on hand cluttering up my shop when I could achieve everything I needed to with just 2.

 

Maybe if I get really bored, I'll sit down in the shop this afternoon and put together a little demonstration for the non believers.

I'm certainly not going to destroy one of my assembled models to demonstrate!

 

 

 

Steve

[peteski]

Steve,

I guess this thread has morphed from its original goal of looking for glue for difficult to glue plastics (and for that purpose 5-minute epoxy is not suitable).  Good to know that you do use a variety of different adhesives in your modeling.

[StevenGuthmiller]

26 minutes ago, peteski said:

Steve,

I guess this thread has morphed from its original goal of looking for glue for difficult to glue plastics (and for that purpose 5-minute epoxy is not suitable).  Good to know that you do use a variety of different adhesives in your modeling.

And you know it's "not suitable" because?

I'm Only trying to offer an option that could at least be tried by the OP.

All of the speculation that it won't work, is at this point, just that......speculation.

 

Offering "something" is a whole heck of a lot more useful than offering nothing and just shooting everything else down.

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited March 3 by StevenGuthmiller

[Ace-Garageguy]

50 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

And you know it's "not suitable" because?

I'm Only trying to offer an option that could at least be tried by the OP.

All of the speculation that it won't work, is at this point, just that......speculation.

Offering "something" is a whole heck of a lot more useful than offering nothing and just shooting everything else down.

No.

I deal with "difficult to bond" scenarios in the real world on at least a weekly basis.

Had you bothered to read the posts the OP made early on about bonding agents he'd already tried that had zero effect, and the posts I subsequently made above regarding specially-engineered adhesives for low-surface-energy materials, it's hard for me to understand that you would think 5-minute epoxy was a reasonable option.

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

...I can certainly see how epoxy would not be the best solution for chopping and sectioning, but I guess I just assumed that anybody doing those sorts of modifications on bare styrene plastic would be smart enough to know that a good plastic cement, or MEK based glue would be the very obvious choice for those kinds of operations.

You don't do heavy mods. It's not your build style. It IS mine.

While I routinely use solvent bonding agents to 'stick' chopped or sectioned assemblies together, having had failures and cracking at the bond line, even if the joint was reinforced internally with sheet-styrene, I've come to rely on laminated epoxy/fiberglass reinforcements exclusively for that kind of work.

But not the 5-minute stuff.

I use an extremely high performance epoxy made for aviation use that costs in the neighborhood of $400 per gallon, which I usually have in stock after it's gone out of date, and cannot be used on aircraft safely...but it's still WAY stronger than any readily available adhesive in the DIY marketplace.

Since I started using that method many years ago, I've had zero bond-line failures or cracks, even after aggressive sculptural shaping of "bondo" or epoxy/microballoon fillers over the bond lines.

HOWEVER...even that stuff simply will not stick to any "low surface energy" plastics like PP or PE, which the OP's material very obviously is at this point.

[StevenGuthmiller]

12 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

No.

I deal with "difficult to bond" scenarios in the real world on at least a weekly basis.

Had you bothered to read the posts the OP made early on about bonding agents he'd already tried that had zero effect, and the posts I subsequently made above regarding specially-engineered adhesives for low-surface-energy materials, it's hard for me to understand that you would think 5-minute epoxy was a reasonable option.

Mostly because I for one am not willing to dismiss an option for something that I have not tried myself personally just because someone tells me that I shouldn't.

Nothing against you or anyone else Bill, but it's often been my opinion that the "experts" are not necessarily always what they're cracked up to be, and I would just as soon do my own experimentation rather than just take a guess based on someone else's experiences or directions.

I'm always open to suggestions, but that isn't going to stop me from trying things myself.

I have several varying items sitting in my shop right now that have been glued together with epoxy.

After they have cured for some time, (possibly a day or 2), then we'll know for certain whether or not it will work in each of those situations.

If not, so be it.

If it works, than all of the expertise and speculation in the world will not change it.

 

In the end, I'm willing to give it a shot and see what happens.

I don't see any circumstance where there's anything wrong with that.

 

The only thing that will never work is the thing that's not tried.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

Sometimes I really wonder why I even bother...

[StevenGuthmiller]

Just now, Ace-Garageguy said:

Sometimes I really wonder why I even bother...

Because although you may not believe it to be the case, you don't necessarily know everything.

I don't mean that as disrespect Bill, that's just how I feel about everyone.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

10 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Because although you may not believe it to be the case, you don't necessarily know everything.

You know, it's really fascinating how often that particular straw-man comes up.

Knowing a lot about a lot of things is by no means an indication that someone thinks they "know everything", but it sure is a popular refrain.

While you're conducting your exhaustive tests on epoxy, why don't you try bubblegum, silicone, Liquid Nails, Silly Putty, hot-glue, and melted cheese too?

After all..."The only thing that will never work is the thing that's not tried".

 

 

 

Edited March 3 by Ace-Garageguy

[StevenGuthmiller]

9 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

You know, it's really fascinating how often that particular straw-man comes up.

Knowing a lot about a lot of things is by no means an indication that someone thinks they "know everything", but it sure is a popular refrain.

While you're conducting your exhaustive tests on epoxy, why don't you try bubblegum, silicone, Liquid Nails, Silly Putty, hot-glue, and melted cheese too?

After all..."The only thing that will never work is the thing that's not tried".

 

 

 

Sure seems to be a lot of vitriol from somebody that's so confident in their position.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

57 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

You know, it's really fascinating how often that particular straw-man comes up.

Knowing a lot about a lot of things is by no means an indication that someone thinks they "know everything", but it sure is a popular refrain.

While you're conducting your exhaustive tests on epoxy, why don't you try bubblegum, silicone, Liquid Nails, Silly Putty, hot-glue, and melted cheese too?

After all..."The only thing that will never work is the thing that's not tried".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited March 3 by StevenGuthmiller

[stitchdup]

2 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Maybe if I get really bored, I'll sit down in the shop this afternoon and put together a little demonstration for the non believers.

I'm certainly not going to destroy one of my assembled models to demonstrate!

 

 

 

Steve

I hope you do, everytime i've tried using epoxy i find i have less control over it. I do use it reinforce behind things where it wont be seen but i'd like to learn more uses for it. Theres one kit in particular i think it would work for me on as superglue and hobby glue have both failed on it so epoxy seems the way to go

[StevenGuthmiller]

8 minutes ago, stitchdup said:

I hope you do, everytime i've tried using epoxy i find i have less control over it. I do use it reinforce behind things where it wont be seen but i'd like to learn more uses for it. Theres one kit in particular i think it would work for me on as superglue and hobby glue have both failed on it so epoxy seems the way to go

Already done.

Videos above.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[stitchdup]

5 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Already done.

Videos above.

 

 

 

 

Steve

yeah, they appeared just as i hit submit, lol. thanks

[Ace-Garageguy]

43 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Already done.

Videos above.

OK. I'm convinced.

But that sure as heck is nothing like the 5-minute epoxies I've tried in the past.

What BRAND are you using here?

Always good to have another option in the box.

[StevenGuthmiller]

41 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

OK. I'm convinced.

But that sure as heck is nothing like the 5-minute epoxies I've tried in the past.

What BRAND are you using here?

Always good to have another option in the box.

Just JB Weld, Clear Weld.

You can find the syringes at many auto parts stores, or the individual bottles on line.

I believe I bought the bottles on Amazon.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[NOBLNG]

2 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

 

I'm always open to suggestions, but that isn't going to stop me from trying things myself.

 

My motto too….here, hold my beer for a minute….😜

[peteski]

7 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

And you know it's "not suitable" because?

I'm Only trying to offer an option that could at least be tried by the OP.

All of the speculation that it won't work, is at this point, just that......speculation.

Offering "something" is a whole heck of a lot more useful than offering nothing and just shooting everything else down.

Steve,

If you bothered to read my several earlier posts you will see that I offered plenty of advice. You might not like or agree with it, but it is advice.  Like I said, I use 5-minute epoxy in my modeling and household repairs, so I do have a clue about what I'm talking about. My personal experience with those slippery plastics we are dealing with in this thread, and 5-minute epoxy is that it doesn't create a usable bond. Period, End of advice.  That is the "because".

If you wish, I can also post some photos of the 5-minute epoxies I have in my adhesive's arsenal.  I don't have the JB Weld brand, so as I mentioned, if it works for bonding those hard to bond plastics, it must be a super-adhesive.

But as you said, we are all just blowing smoke since this is all just experiences, suggestions, and speculations.  But it is fun!

Edited March 4 by peteski