3D printing now offered from a mainstream model company...

[Harry P.]

Of course there are already a multitude of business applications such as architecture,...

A few years ago on "This Old House" they showed how an architect printed out his architectural model on a 3-D printer... fully detailed and in color inside and out. And this was 2-3 years ago!

Can anyone still believe that 3-D printing isn't going to be commonplace very soon? Not just for model kits, but for hundreds of applications.

[Brett Barrow]

Don't kid yourself... it's the manufacturers that butter your bread. If the products are sold in the form of downloadable software to be printed on the customer's own 3-D printer at home, that would make what you now do obsolete. So you obviously have a vested interest in the industry staying just the way it is. Which obviously colors your opinion of 3-D printing and its possible emergence as the new way of "manufacturing" kits.

Come on, Brett. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Who do you think you're dealing with here?

The manufacturers "butter my bread"?!?! We have to buy the products from the manufacturers before we sell them!!!! We don't cash checks from the manufacturers, we write checks to the manufacturers...

Again, I'll point it out - I started this thread, I'm exited about this technology and what it can bring to the industry, from both a consumer's perspective and what it can do for the product development side. 3D printing will supplement plastic modeling, not supplant it, that's all I'm saying. You're saying it will, I'm saying it won't. But don't get up here and accuse me of basically being a shill for the manufacturers, because I'm not.

You seem to take way too many contrarian positions for a moderator, I'm starting to think that maybe your role on this board might be better off as just a simple member and not as a moderator. When folks start piling on those with differing opinions, you're often right smack dab in the middle of it, leading the mob.

You know what, I'm going to lock this thread, if you or anyone else wants to continue the discussion, you can start a new one, or dredge up an old one, but I've wasted enough keystrokes as it is, I'm done with this one.

[Harry P.]

I'm a moderator, but I'm also a member, just like you. Being a moderator doesn't take away my membership here, and I can still post my opinions, however contrary to yours they may be.

In this case we obviously are never going to agree, but that doesn't mean that because my opinion doesn't mesh with yours that I shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion or post it.

[Brett Barrow]

I don't want to seem like a spoiled brat who takes his ball and goes home, so I'm reopening the thread. Please, proceed...

[sjordan2]

As I stated in post #100, which gets lost in the page change, the technology - and its availability and affordability to consumers - is evolving very quickly for the interests of a wide variety of businesses and industries, with little or no influence from plastic car modelers. Kind of a moot point, overall, to me. We just need to wait and see.

The typical way this stuff seems to work is that an established company with strong marketing and distribution, maybe someone like HP, will license, buy or partner with a company that has the technology and make it consumer-friendly. Then it'll trickle down to us. But the downside is that 3D printing is of little interest to the general public, unlike having a PC or cellphone, and the more affordable (but not cheap) units will be for more specialized boutique, design and hobbyist use.

Edited May 31, 2013 by sjordan2

[martinfan5]

As I stated in post #100, which gets lost in the page change, the technology - and its availability and affordability to consumers - is evolving very quickly for the interests of a wide variety of businesses and industries, with little or no influence from plastic car modelers. Kind of a moot point, overall, to me. We just need to wait and see.

The typical way this stuff seems to work is that an established company with strong marketing, maybe someone like HP, will license, buy or partner with a company that has the technology and make it consumer-friendly. Then it'll trickle down to us.

I have to agree with you Skip, non us know with fact how its going to change the hobby yet, but I think we can all agree that its going to change a part of it in some shape or forum but , at this point, we just have to wait and see how it plays out.

[Danno]

Not much choice. It's going to play out as it plays out ... nothing posted/said on a hobby forum is going to change the technological destiny.

[kalbert]

Harry you're certainly entitled to your opinion, admin or not, but it's just that. Your opinion. No need to be defensive when others don't agree with your opinion. Just because some don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean we don't understand what your opinion is. You're opinion is not the only one, and when you berate others and attack them with your opinion it is off putting and unbecoming of a member, and an inappropriate for an admin to behave. To insist that you somehow know more about what Brett's motives are than he does the way you have is just absurd. I've observed the same as Brett... Whenever there's fussing and discussion that has gone to far, you're generally right there in the middle of it. Not acting as an admin trying to cool things down, instead acting like a troll and fanning the flames.

[sjordan2]

Harry you're certainly entitled to your opinion, admin or not, but it's just that. Your opinion. No need to be defensive when others don't agree with your opinion. Just because some don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean we don't understand what your opinion is. You're opinion is not the only one, and when you berate others and attack them with your opinion it is off putting and unbecoming of a member, and an inappropriate for an admin to behave. To insist that you somehow know more about what Brett's motives are than he does the way you have is just absurd. I've observed the same as Brett... Whenever there's fussing and discussion that has gone to far, you're generally right there in the middle of it. Not acting as an admin trying to cool things down, instead acting like a troll and fanning the flames.

I think we're moving on from there. I hope there's no need for such further debate.

[LOBBS]

Being a CMM programmer by trade for an aerospace supplier this stuff is right up my alley. We receive a CAD model from Boeing, etc. and engineering writes their CNC program from it and I write my inspection routine from the same data. We also reverse-engineer/digitize dies and masters on a fairly regular basis using the CMM to scan it and kicking the point cloud upstairs for the guys to build the CAD files.

Count me in the crowd that believes it is just a matter of time before 3D printing is commonplace. I think that it will be the detailing bits long before full kits. $13 bucks for a set of 3D printed wheels as was mentioned earlier in the thread? You can easily pay that now for a set of Aoshima or Fujimi wheels. With 3D printing you could have a great number of designs available. Depending on how the files are set up one could be able to control the width, offset and diameter of the wheels and then be able to print exactly the correct tire sizes and styles to match them. I'd give up having to buy kit after kit just to steal a handful of parts in a heartbeat to have the option to print out just what I needed.

Edited May 31, 2013 by LOBBS

[kalbert]

Noticed Moebius had a sign up at Wonderfest 2013 (a sci-fi model show) a couple weeks ago that said they were offering parts through Shapeways.com's 3D printing service. So far all they've got for sale are a couple 1/32 items to complement their 1/32 Battlestar Galactica Vipers, but these could probably work on 1/32 real-world aircraft as well, and the tool box could fit into a 1/32 slot car pit lane...

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/moebiusmodels

Interesting to see this offered by a mainstream injection-molded model company. Opens the door for all sorts of possibilities.

Getting back on topic, yes that is interesting and is certainly a sign of things to come. I would imagine printing stuff at home is a little ways off yet, but I expect we'll be seeing slot more items like these in the future. It seems more like it would replace replace or reduce mail order resin casting before it would replace the big brand kits. Certainly the big brands will eventually offer print at home kits but the technology has a long way to go and there will be many steps between. A few forum members may pool together and get a printer, maybe even offer to print things for other members. You'll be stopping by the Kinkos after work to pick up a model you had printed. Maybe the local hobby shop will sell time on their printer, Revell might even offer store owners exclusive kits to print or financing options for the machine. Some day I imagine every home will have a 3d printer and you'll be downloading plans for everything from trash cans to toilet seats to food containers instead of buying them already existing from Amazon or *gasp* a brick and mortar store!!!

[Ace-Garageguy]

So why not room in the hobby for both, as long as the hobby remains alive? End-point 3D printing doesn't have to replace injection molding, as someone's already commented. Folks still buy balsa model aircraft kits, amazingly. If I could buy a desktop printer unit that would produce surface finishes comparable to some of the second-string resin products available, for around $800, I'd save my pennies and add it to my tool list. Having the OPTION of printing out a different body shell, engine, or wheel / tire package would be really great.

Another thought is that the cost of a high-end machine could be made manageable by using something similar to the OLD Xerox business model, and LEASING the machines to retail outlets like hobby-shops. With printing operating systems standardized between manufacturers, a design-provider (Revell, etc.) would pay the store a small fee each time one of their parts was printed (buried in the markup).

All 3D printing really is...is another tool. Just like the Dremel hasn't replaced razor saws and knives for cutting plastic, 3D printing need not REPLACE injection molding to have a huge impact on the hobby.

[Daddyfink]

Well, I know that this will stop me from raiding my other kits for parts! Just print what I need!! And it will also stop folks from buying extra kits for the parts once the files hit the web.

I really do not see someone printing a whole kit, yet, but I do see lots of spare parts and custom parts being done.

So lets get excited and get onboard!

Now, a replacement for ALPS is needed!!

[ajwheels]

All 3D printing really is...is another tool. Just like the Dremel hasn't replaced razor saws and knives for cutting plastic, 3D printing need not REPLACE injection molding to have a huge impact on the hobby.

For me, Bill's comment here is spot-on...............not everyone will have a 3D printer in their home, just like we all don't have a band-saw, and who can really say what the specific impacts will be..................this is really about options, and having choices about how we pursue this hobby..............more choices and intriguing options are really good things...............enjoy................

[Danno]

For me, Bill's comment here is spot-on...............not everyone will have a 3D printer in their home, just like we all don't have a band-saw, and who can really say what the specific impacts will be..................this is really about options, and having choices about how we pursue this hobby..............more choices and intriguing options are really good things...............enjoy................

There you go!

[lordairgtar]

Is this not far from happening? I know they do 3D printing in metal now.

http://www.google.com/imgres?sa=X&biw=1360&bih=635&tbm=isch&tbnid=oQCjHjkXYjxYNM:&imgrefurl=http://www.universetoday.com/41743/nasas-version-of-star-trek-replicator-ready-for-on-orbit-test/&docid=RMrb0HlMpb5C6M&imgurl=http://d1jqu7g1y74ds1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Replicator-Star-Trek-weapons-and-gadgets.jpg&w=450&h=344&ei=JSupUb2_LYSwyQGwzYDwBQ&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:1,s:0,i:86&iact=rc&dur=677&page=1&tbnh=196&tbnw=257&start=0&ndsp=18&tx=122&ty=103

Edited May 31, 2013 by lordairgtar

[mrknowetall]

I'll be saving up my money.

I'm serious.

Brett knows I will.

[Jon Cole]

Not everyone can afford a 3D printer,, even if the price comes down. Heck, not everyone can afford a 2D printer.... paper, ink,,, cannot justify expense. What can be done, vs what is done, often separated by cost. I can imagine 3D parts, but I doubt the tech will ever be affordable for the masses.

[Bruce Poage]

Wow. I am 69 years old and way behind the tech curve. This is all beyond me. I don't understand how I am going to produce a plastic kit at home with a 3-D down load. At my age it may not mean much anyway.

[charlie8575]

Forgive me if this sounds like I'm a little slow, with this new 3D scanning etc, but it's all well & good to have all this in the foreseeable future, ( regarding model making ), but isn't there a cost involved in actual material/s that the scanner would need to "actually" print/make the model, such as some form of plastic, like modern printers need paper/ink etc ?? How can any of these 3D scanners make anything without the necessary "materials"? Whether its plastic, human tissue, rubber, steel etc.... Sorry for the dumb question, but I'm not up to scratch with all this star-trekish technology.... Would someone in the know be able to explain it??

Cheers

Having looked into a lot of this myself for my own possible company...

A 3-D scanner (Z Corporation makes an excellent product and is one of the more common ones), costs about $30,000. The prices have been pretty static the last several years from what I understand, so don't expect these to be $500 items in the next ten years unless something totally revolutionary happens.

3-D scanning works by holding a "gun" that looks like a radar gun (and uses a lot of the same concepts of radar) and running it along an object. The scanner picks up targets, which can be attached directly to the object, or are sewn into a netting material which drapes over the object. The scanner picks ups the targets and renders the object, quite accurately, into a 3-D CAD program, SolidWorks being the most common.

There are two basic types of 3-D printer. Z Corp and a couple of other companies make one that uses a granulated material. Through the proprietary software and CAD, the computer sends a signal to the printer, which then electro-statically charges the granulated material, which is plastic and some other stuff, forming the object in question. The major problem is that this material is NOT paintable or sandable. These 3-D printers are also the least expensive type. Commercial units are around $10,000 for a small one.

The other style of machine, made by ObJet, an Israleli company, and I believe one other company, uses a polymer material that is very close to injection-molded styrene in quality and feel. It works like a plotter, dropping out the plastic "ink" drop by drop to form the object. Clear material is available.

The issues.

The granualated media machines will simply not work well for modeling.

The liquid machines are VERY expensive. The smallest ObJet starts at about $30,000.

Also, the liquid for the ObJet is incredibly expensive. The black acrylic-like material which is the most common medium, costs $1100 per cartridge. In addition, many of these parts aren't paintable.

There is a very, very long way to go. And, like Casey, Gregg, Bill, Brett, and Art, I agree- emphatically, these machines will NOT, at least in the foreseeable future (again, unless something absolutely revolutionary happens) be capable of producing full kits for consumers. Between the expense of the material (which isn't dropping at all), and the speed (an average car kit in either style of machine would take 36-48 hours to print), this is not economically feasible, and I do not think it will be anytime soon.

Small parts- like wheels, details and so forth, might be able to be produced economically, but not in large scale and not for at least another few years, regardless of what Moebius is doing, bearing in mind they're a very small company. For Revell, Tamiya, or even AMT or Aoshima to do this economically is a far sight down the road.

To put it in to perspective, when I went to visit the Objet office in Rhode Island in January, I was given a wheel as a sample- roughly a 1/25 size, which one of the engineers patterned after the ones on his Mustang, just to play with the machine a little. That one rim costs about $5 to make. For $20, you can get a nice set of aluminum rims from one of the aftermarket companies. Which would you rather? For the record, the quality is outstanding- you could say "injection molded," and not have much basis to argue.

In closing, no, this will not be DIY kits.The speed and cost are not where they need to be, and because of the way the machine works, I don't know if they can be made that way given the limits of physics and computer science and engineering.

Charlie Larkin

Edited June 1, 2013 by charlie8575

[Art Anderson]

So why not room in the hobby for both, as long as the hobby remains alive? End-point 3D printing doesn't have to replace injection molding, as someone's already commented. Folks still buy balsa model aircraft kits, amazingly. If I could buy a desktop printer unit that would produce surface finishes comparable to some of the second-string resin products available, for around $800, I'd save my pennies and add it to my tool list. Having the OPTION of printing out a different body shell, engine, or wheel / tire package would be really great.

Another thought is that the cost of a high-end machine could be made manageable by using something similar to the OLD Xerox business model, and LEASING the machines to retail outlets like hobby-shops. With printing operating systems standardized between manufacturers, a design-provider (Revell, etc.) would pay the store a small fee each time one of their parts was printed (buried in the markup).

All 3D printing really is...is another tool. Just like the Dremel hasn't replaced razor saws and knives for cutting plastic, 3D printing need not REPLACE injection molding to have a huge impact on the hobby.

The more I've thought about this subject, I've come to at least one conclusion:

All model kits, no matter the medium, come at a cost. The lowest up-front cost model kits were those early ones that came is bits of wood, pieces of Strathmore Board (a very fine quality cardboard if you will), a few bits of wire of various thicknesses, and a few metal castings (even early injection-molded plastic parts, believe it or not). When plastic model kits began hitting the scene about 1950 or so, the upfront cost went up by quantum numbers, but that was absorbed quickly by produciing kits in mass numbers, spreading the cost of tooling across vast numbers of any one kit.

About 35 years ago or so, resin-cast body shells began to show up (and with a revived model car press they got pretty wide exposure). Now, in almost a direct opposite to injection-molded plastic kits which could be produced in mass numbers in a very short time-frame, resin kits were, and are, made from molds that are quite expensive to make (price RTV rubber sometime) using a material that is also many times more expensive than a comparable volume of styrene plastic pellets, in what is likely the most labor intensive (which translates into more costs, BTW) process in all the world of model car kits. What changes? The upfront costs (capital investment) goes way down, of course, but is more than replaced, on a per-unit basis by the extremely high tool and material costs, along with the much greater labor expense (I don't know a single resin caster--myself included--who works for free, doesn't require food, clothing, shelter along with all the other accoutrements of life), to make available model kits and/or projects that likely would never see the light of day as mass-produced injection molded products.

I see 3D printing as being in the latter category for the near-foreseeable future: If one thinks of it, were a model car kit, done to anything at all like the standard we've come to expect today--100+ parts and lots of surface detailing, will require equipment (computer--with the capacity of handling HUGE files, software--and that software, in order to be at all capable of producing comprehensive model kits and parts will be expensive--and of course a 3D printer with the capability of making the resulting parts), the raw plastic material. All that is upfront cost, whether it is done in a factory setting (and given that 3D printing surely cannot keep up with the 90-120 second cycle or "turnaround time" of a modern injection molder, to produce mass quantities of kits will require a pretty fair number of 3D printer setups), not to mention the obviously much higher wage scales for people solidly versed in the operation, care and feeding of such equipment. Or, just as with a resin-caster, the upfront cost of all that equipment, perhaps only one, perhaps two 3D printing setups--again, upfront costs before that first 3D printed set of model kit parts comes off the end of the line, packed, and ready to be sent to the factory loading dock, or the aftermarket person's shipping desk. And, I haven't yet mentioned the necessary maintenance and repair services that will be required by anyone using such equipment, be they a large busness, a small operation, or an individual modeler wanting to create his own model car kits.

For an individual modeler wanting to do his own 3D printed model car kit, the upfront investment necessarily would include all that the above two commercial examples would need to have, along with a learning curve AFTER he/she invests the money in the needed high tech machines, not to mention the operating software, along with the necessary files of information from which to print out their own model kit. So, what would that "upfront cost" per home-printed model car kit be? Say the entire project, all the hardware and all the software, plus the raw materials set the building back $1200-$1500 (probably not out of reason--good business sense is to always overestimate the costs), then the first successful kit will have set back that modeler the total purchase price of everything needed. Two kits? Each will have cost half the upfront investment, and so on. Pretty expensive model car kits, if you ask me!

OK, so now you have all the equipment, and you've bought the necessary files for the kit(s) you want to have on your build pile--suppose you want to "run off a few copies for your friends", they paying you money for them? Where does that leave the person who did all the work to create those CAD files??? Unless the creator of such figures in some bit of code to stop the software from making more than one kit, that person winds up with absolutely no incentive to do all the work in the first place, does he? Of course not. And, don't say that such schemes won't be tried, because they will--how many times have we all seen someone copying parts from an existing kit, in resin--"Oh, just a few extras for my closest model car friends"? I think you can see the picture there. And that would be a major problem for anyone trying to sell the 3D printing files, be they a sole operator, or at least a moderately large small business.

I've not even addressed the learning curves involved beyond figuring how to work the equipment, use the requisite software--what about the learning curve that almost assuredly will come for a model builder trying a 3D kit for the first time? If styrene cannot be used in 3D printing, that will mean learning to work with new glues, perhaps new kinds of paint, all that--and I think we each know more than one other modeler who won't be very happy to have to be the "old dog learning new tricks"--in short, there will be a good bit of resistance, certainly at the outset--again, I draw from my 12 yrs of casting polyurethane resin kits--I started that 24 years ago--and resin wasn't completely new, and yet how many times on this very set of forums do we see the same old, same old question: "How do I work with a resin kit?" The very same thing more than likely will happen with 3D printed parts and/or kits: "How do I work with this stuff?".

Do I see possibilities? Yeah, of course! But do I see it replacing tried and true methods and media in this hobby anytime soon? No--for all the reasons I've laid out above in this already too-long missive.

Art

[Art Anderson]

Having looked into a lot of this myself for my own possible company...

A 3-D scanner (Z Corporation makes an excellent product and is one of the more common ones), costs about $30,000. The prices have been pretty static the last several years from what I understand, so don't expect these to be $500 items in the next ten years unless something totally revolutionary happens.

3-D scanning works by holding a "gun" that looks like a radar gun (and uses a lot of the same concepts of radar) and running it along an object. The scanner picks up targets, which can be attached directly to the object, or are sewn into a netting material which drapes over the object. The scanner picks ups the targets and renders the object, quite accurately, into a 3-D CAD program, SolidWorks being the most common.

There are two basic types of 3-D printer. Z Corp and a couple of other companies make one that uses a granulated material. Through the proprietary software and CAD, the computer sends a signal to the printer, which then electro-statically charges the granulated material, which is plastic and some other stuff, forming the object in question. The major problem is that this material is NOT paintable or sandable. These 3-D printers are also the least expensive type. Commercial units are around $10,000 for a small one.

The other style of machine, made by ObJet, an Israleli company, and I believe one other company, uses a polymer material that is very close to injection-molded styrene in quality and feel. It works like a plotter, dropping out the plastic "ink" drop by drop to form the object. Clear material is available.

The issues.

The granualated media machines will simply not work well for modeling.

The liquid machines are VERY expensive. The smallest ObJet starts at about $30,000.

Also, the liquid for the object is incredibly expensive. The black acrylic-like material which is the most common medium, costs $1100 per cartridge. In addition, many of these parts aren't paintable.

There is a very, very long way to go. And, like Casey, Gregg, Bill, Brett, and Art, I agree- emphatically, these machines will NOT, at least in the forseeable future (again, unless something absolutely revolutionary happens) be capable of producing full kits for consumers. Between the expense of the matierial (which isn't dropping at all), and the speed (an average car kit in either style of machine would take 36-48 hours to print), this is not economically feasible, and I do not think it will be anytime soon.

Small parts- like wheels, details and so forth, might be able to be produced economically, but not in large scale and not for at least another few years, regardless of what Moebius is doing, bearing in mind they're a very small company. For Revell, Tamiya, or even AMT or Aoshima to do this economically is a far sight down the road.

To put it in to perspective, when I went to visit the Objet office in Rhode Island in January, I was given a wheel as a sample- roughly a 1/25 size, which one of the engineers patterned after the ones on his Mustang, just to play with the machine a little. That one rim costs about $5 to make. For $20, you can get a nice set of aluminum rims from one of the aftermarket companies. Which would you rather? For the record, the quality is outstanding- you could say "injection molded," and not have much basis to argue.

In closing, no, this will not be DIY kits.The speed and cost are not where they need to be, and because of the way the machine works, I don't know if they can be made that way given the limits of physics and computer science and engineering.

Charlie Larkin

Incidently, Moebius isn't doing those 3D printed parts themselves, but rather they have apparently entered into a relationship with a shop which can do that sort of work--almost like a model company hooking up with an aftermarket resin caster.

Art

[charlie8575]

Thanks for the clarificaiton, Art.

Charlie Larkin

[Luc Janssens]

I'll be saving up my money.

I'm serious.

Brett knows I will.

Add a home vacuum plating device and we're all set.

[Danno]

Good analysis, Art.

Coming . . .

Getting closer . . .

But still down the road a ways.