Will GM's problems ever end?

[1930fordpickup]

Obamacare has nothing to do with this topic. Deep pockets has nothing to do with topic either . However there are people that would make it seem like it.

Bottom line GM made decisions in the interest of profit and failed to act in a moral way to prevent deaths.The result of those bad decisions are now happehing. From previous history there is no doubt that they will do it again because they haven't learned from the past and no doubt others will make the same mistakes. Until the people that make these decisions are held accountable for their decisions there will be no incentive to do otherwise.

Well said Bob .

[Dave Van]

dave van. lets bring up the ford and firestone tire recall in the 2000's that was a coverup. is that this century. I think their was 250 deaths and over 2000 injuries.

No problem here.....that was wrong too......but then again I didn't give Ford millions to 'save' them either.

And before we have the 'they have paid it all back' go to Forbes and search GM bail out and read how they did it.....crooked too and done just for an ad campaign. Again...I go back and relate this to kids trying to point to another as being worst than them.

[martinfan5]

Obamacare has nothing to do with this topic. Deep pockets has nothing to do with topic either . However there are people that would make it seem like it.

Bottom line GM made decisions in the interest of profit and failed to act in a moral way to prevent deaths.The result of those bad decisions are now happehing. From previous history there is no doubt that they will do it again because they haven't learned from the past and no doubt others will make the same mistakes. Until the people that make these decisions are held accountable for their decisions there will be no incentive to do otherwise.

Well said x2

[Harry P.]

The bad news for GM just keeps on coming.

The bad ignition switch (the subject of several, but not all GM recalls this year) was manufactured by Delphi. They stopped making the switch in 2011, but now that GM needs literally millions of them, Delphi must once again tool up to manufacture the switch, which has taken them a lot of time. Not enough new switches are being produced to cover the scope of the recalls–the switches are just trickling in to dealers... people whose cars were recalled months ago are still driving around with defective cars because they are on "waiting lists." So far less than 8% of the recalled cars have been repaired. GM is wiling to give out loaner cars to those affected, but again, the cost of the loaner cars alone (wear and tear) is a huge hit.

[Joe Handley]

Did they tell.the owners to leave the 5 pounds of junk off their key chain and not drive drunk until the part is replaced too?

Edited June 22, 2014 by Joe Handley

[bobthehobbyguy]

The bad news for GM just keeps on coming.

The bad ignition switch (the subject of several, but not all GM recalls this year) was manufactured by Delphi. They stopped making the switch in 2011, but now that GM needs literally millions of them, Delphi must once again tool up to manufacture the switch, which has taken them a lot of time. Not enough new switches are being produced to cover the scope of the recalls–the switches are just trickling in to dealers... people whose cars were recalled months ago are still driving around with defective cars because they are on "waiting lists." So far less than 8% of the recalled cars have been repaired. GM is wiling to give out loaner cars to those affected, but again, the cost of the loaner cars alone (wear and tear) is a huge hit.

First off making more switches is not going to solve their problem unless they truly underdtand the issue.

Was the orignal specification flawed? Most parts have tolerances and one question would be could the low end of the spec be the issue. Were the parts that have issues or the same batch or manufacturer. Also is the issue truly too much on the key ring. There has to be an intelligent process for handling this otherwise they are just doing feel good tasks.

[Harry P.]

First off making more switches is not going to solve their problem unless they truly underdtand the issue.

Was the orignal specification flawed? Most parts have tolerances and one question would be could the low end of the spec be the issue. Were the parts that have issues or the same batch or manufacturer. Also is the issue truly too much on the key ring. There has to be an intelligent process for handling this otherwise they are just doing feel good tasks.

The original switch was ok'd by a GM engineer (since fired) who knew the switch did not meet GM specs. Check my previous posts where I quote the story from Bloomberg.

I assume the replacement switches have been redesigned to fix the problem, otherwise it makes no sense to replace faulty switches with faulty switches!

[Modelbuilder Mark]

Many of you are driving in cars that have had recalls, and may not even be aware. Here is a link to the NHSTA website for all recalls.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues

While the GM recalls are indeed disturbing, some of them are not major. I work for a major auto manufacturer, and I can tell you first hand that recalls happen sometimes now as just reactionary, IE: "there is the tiniest of problems, better recall before someone sues". There are FAR more recalls for minor issues than there are for major concerns.

Some of this comes from the fact that so many parts are made by vendors, and quality is not easy to control. Some, poor design. The deal with the Camaro, come on, no one pointed out their knee was hitting the keys?

Harry pointed out that GM has had 35 recalls this year, but keep in mind that is going back over several years as well. Companies will now also recall vehicles for issues that are 10-15 years old or older. For example, the bolt that holds spare wheels under trucks, some rust from salts and water on the road, go figure. Well, now instead of common sense telling you that a metal part, exposed to the elements for 15 years can rust and will need maintained/replaced, they recall them.

Here are just some 2014 model year recalls from the site

2014 Fords have had 28

2014 Chevy models 18

2014 GMC models 12

2014 Honda models 10

Keep in mind that many of these items are very very minor, and may not actually require the work. Just the better safe than sorry.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I don't think anyone can realistically condemn GM or ANY manufacturer for having product recalls. Cars are extremely complex machines, getting more complex all the time, they're committee-designed and built, by LARGE groups of people who are, unfortunately, "only human", and an occasional "oops" is simply inevitable.

The cover-up mentality, and allowing a non-spec design into mass production, are the unforgivable issues.

[Harry P.]

I don't think anyone can realistically condemn GM or ANY manufacturer for having product recalls. Cars are extremely complex machines, getting more complex all the time, they're committee-designed and built, by LARGE groups of people who are, unfortunately, "only human", and an occasional "oops" is simply inevitable.

The cover-up mentality, and allowing a non-spec design into mass production, are the unforgivable issues.

Exactly. That's what everyone has said all along. Recalls are not the issue. Congress isn't investigating the recalls, they're investigating how and why GM covered up a problem that they knew existed and did nothing about it for ten years.

[bob terry]

What I don't understand about all this is, People have died. Shouldn't someone be going to jail?

[Ace-Garageguy]

What I don't understand about all this is, People have died. Shouldn't someone be going to jail?

That could conceivably happen IF someone in the chain of command is charged with criminal negligence leading to the deaths. If no formal criminal charges are brought, nobody goes to jail.

[Harry P.]

That could conceivably happen IF someone in the chain of command is charged with criminal negligence leading to the deaths.

And proving that is next to impossible, because you have to prove there was intent to harm. It'll never happen.

[Dave Van]

I said that all along.....sighting that even my Honda Fit had a recall.....it was HOW GM handled the issues....how long it took and how it was brought into the open that is an issue. AND .....again it is a mind set that has gotten into the American corporate culture and every aspect of our lives.

[mikemodeler]

What I don't understand about all this is, People have died. Shouldn't someone be going to jail?

After a bunch more congressional hearings on this matter, GM will be fined and then the civil lawsuits will start from the affected owners and victims.

Very sad commentary on how companies handle such issues. The banking industry has been fined into the billions for their part in the 2008 financial meltdown and in a way, this is not much different in that people were harmed by actions and inaction.

As Harry said, no one will go to jail, too hard to prove/convince that any one person acted alone or in malice.

Sad as I used to be a GM guy and the first couple of vehicles I owned were GM trucks but haven't found any reason to consider them in years and this makes it even harder!

[johnbuzzed]

Absence of malice does not automatically eliminate jail time; it might reduce it. And how could malice be ruled out in this situation? Did those who made the decisions at GM not think anything "bad" might possibly, conceivably happen as a result of their decisions?

[lordairgtar]

Not justifying putting cheaply made parts in automobiles, but had not Ralph Nadar come up with exaggerated claims of bad handling Corvairs in the older swing axle (which was soon changed to a better design, but Nadar kept harping on it), the corporate culture may not have developed as it has regarding keeping quite about crappy unsafe bits or keeping quite about same. Also GM changed the design quite aways back on the ignition switch, but never changed it's part number which would be much like a company changing a print spec and not adding a new rev number alerting the production team of the change. Now GM has to eat that cost in the recall by having to change perfectly good ignition switches because they do not know which are bad and which are good. My 2010 GM car may have a perfectly fine part, but you would never know unless one took apart the switch to see inside...so I get a new switch for my trucklet whether it needs it or not.

Edited June 23, 2014 by lordairgtar

[ranma]

Even with the recall issues Chevrolet is still a top seller according to reports in the sunday paper. also GM has many cars getting J.D.Powers awards this year. Even the resale of used GM cars have not been affected by the recall's!

[Harry P.]

Also GM changed the design quite aways back on the ignition switch, but never changed it's part number which would be much like a company changing a print spec and not adding a new rev number alerting the production team of the change. Now GM has to eat that cost in the recall by having to change perfectly good ignition switches because they do not know which are bad and which are good. My 2010 GM car may have a perfectly fine part, but you would never know unless one took apart the switch to see inside...so I get a new switch for my trucklet whether it needs it or not.

That was the same GM engineer who first approved the switch even though he knew it didn't meet GM specs. He later redesigned the switch but never changed the part number, so like you say, GM now has no way of knowing which cars have the original faulty switch or the redesigned one... so they all have to be replaced. That guy has since been fired, but the damage is done.

I wonder if he got to keep his GM pension plan?

[1930fordpickup]

That was the same GM engineer who first approved the switch even though he knew it didn't meet GM specs. He later redesigned the switch but never changed the part number, so like you say, GM now has no way of knowing which cars have the original faulty switch or the redesigned one... so they all have to be replaced. That guy has since been fired, but the damage is done.

I wonder if he got to keep his GM pension plan?

I would say he was paid to leave without comment. They call it fired.

Silence is golden.

[Dave Van]

Honda and Nissan had a big recall today on Japanese made air bags.

Interesting article in the automotive press that likened the recall, no incidents yet but bags can fail due to moisture contamination, to mass hysteria caused by the massive GM recall.......so has this become a issue bigger than the GM recall??? Is it now going to cause every part failure become a recall??? Seems like a slippery slope of recalls, fines, lawyers, repeat.......

[Ace-Garageguy]

... had not Ralph Nadar come up with exaggerated claims of bad handling Corvairs in the older swing axle (which was soon changed to a better design, but Nadar kept harping on it), the corporate culture may not have developed as it has regarding keeping quite about crappy unsafe bits or keeping quite about same...

When Nader attacked the Corvair, the real issue was that the swing-axle cars were EXTREMELY sensitive to tire pressures (because of very poor decision-making by management) and the owners just WEREN'T reading the owner's manual and following the recommendations. ALL Porsche 356 cars and ALL early VW Beetles pre-71 had the exact same rear suspension design as the early Corvair, but the suspension under those was "tuned" to handle acceptably and ride harsher than GM marketing thought was desirable. GM KNEW of the potential for disaster, and went ahead anyway...just like in the current mess. The swing-axle Corvair can be made to handle very safely and predictably with a very minor modification.

When Nader attacked, GM, instead of acknowledging there was a problem and fixing it up front (there had been an "at cost option" fix available), they decided to attack Nader PERSONALLY, obliquely alleging he was a homosexual (which has what to do with what??) among other things. But instead of manning-up and admitting the problem and fixing it, GM hid behind its lawyers, called Nader names, and behaved like complete idiots.

The rear suspension in the '65 Corvair was ENTIRELY redesigned, and the new geometry was as good as the Porsche 911, but once again, GM downplayed the redesign, never fought back on the issues, and let the poor old Corvair, actually a very good and interesting car, die a quiet death.

There seems to be a recurring pattern of avoiding issues and going for cheap instead of safe and reliable...and when problems emerge, management sticks its head in the sand and hopes nobody notices.

This is really a shame too, as GM is entirely CAPABLE of building vehicles as good as anything on the planet. They just CHOOSE not to.

[Dave Van]

I drove a 2nd gen Carvair from a used car lot back in my HS days. The car was WILD all over the place. I had friends with Corvairs and knew they didn't behave like that......returned to the dealer and told them.....they said 'Oh yea....the right rear has a leak and is real low'.....even 2nd gen were sensitive to PSI !!!!

[Ace-Garageguy]

....even 2nd gen were sensitive to PSI !!!!

Ummmm...ANY car is sensitive to severely under-inflated tires. That's a good way to get yourself killed.

Over the years, I've owned one of just about every Corvair made (except the pickup, and the gen-2 4-door) and autocrossed a couple. Good handling, responsive cars (even the first-gen cars when equipped with the "camber compensator"...basically a transverse leaf spring to limit wheel tuck-under in roll...or simple axle-travel limit straps). The camber-compensator was also the hot setup under my Porsche-engined VW slalom car in the late '60s.

[Dave Van]

Ummmm...ANY car is sensitive to severely under-inflated tires. That's a good way to get yourself killed.

I've driven cars with flats that handled better than that Corvair did with a low tire!!!!

At the time I was looking I had been driving my buddy's Corvair......mid engine 350 V-8 powered '69.

A fantastic car that tended to eat ring gears.....