New kits with flaws.

[Fabrux]

There's plenty of other issues, too, such as the 60 C-10 showing the old annual kit, the 68 Barracuda and 69 Charger Daytona showing rims that weren't in the kit, etc.

[Casey]

I don't agree about the Checkerboard kits at Wal-Mart.

Fair enough.

I don't think it's fair to label someone a cheapskate or a hobby killer for taking advantage of what is at the time a good deal.

My point was that a store like W*M sells based on price, and when price is the #1 most important factor, other things like quality are secondary. I was trying to tie in Dave's comment about prices going up and added some proof it's already happened with Round2's most recent releases. What interests me is the point at which spending more on a kit's R&D becomes either advantageous or prohibitive when it comes to selling the kits to the distributors, and how that point seems to be changing. Now, that change might be bad or good, depending upon one's viewpoint, and if there's a tradeoff between price and quality.

[Ace-Garageguy]

For those that continue to speculate on how easy it should be to get a kit more accurate, go back and re-read Dave's post. It isn't because the kit companies don't care about the final product, it's about profitability and survival. And while there are those that will argue that a company would be more profitable if it produced more accurate kits, keep in mind that to achieve perceived perfection, it could cause the company to go out of business!

For the 100 dozenth time, NO ONE expects perfection. GROSS INACCURACIES ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE, and IT DOESN'T COST A PENNY MORE TO GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.

It takes better communication, more caring about quality-first, and management commitment.

I've spent considerable time in product design and production engineering during my 45 year working life. Getting it right the first time IS POSSIBLE IF IT'S A PRIMARY GOAL. PERIOD.

People ALWAYS whine and complain when you demand they consistently perform quality work...if you let them...but a truly effective executive will find a way to motivate his people to deliver first-rate product the first time...or get new people.

[martinfan5]

For the 100 dozenth time, NO ONE expects perfection. GROSS INACCURACIES ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE, and IT DOESN'T COST A PENNY MORE TO GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.

Cost a lot more to get it wrong than it does to get right.............................................................

[keyser]

I wonder if LOUD ENGLISH is primary verbal communication language for non-Moebius manufacturers? Just sayin'

Just noticed BTW, there are 3-4 of us with 3-4 posts each, and 80 responses in the thread. Probably 30 supporting Mr. M, and the rest minus HVAC rants telling us "...perfection bad, perfection kill natives..." Gotta go back and look at some of these threads, see what percentage are pointing out obvious, and percentage complaining about whining, birthers, and Shtuppers. Hmmm. Nah.

Edited December 22, 2014 by keyser

[Casey]

#3 Simple economics dictate that we can't delay a kit to tweak of every tiny detail. We do our best to get these details right - honestly, we do, and product release dates get pushed back because we're doing our damnedest to get them right! BUT at some point we need to decide whether it's more important to keep pouring time and added dollars into revising tools or putting a less than PERFECT kit on store shelves.

This is what I find fascinating, the differing point at which the model is deemed ready for production by whomever makes that decision.

I would imagine at Moebius there is a development schedule which begins at the original idea and ends when the kit finally reaches retailers, but is there an actual, hard "deadline", say, 36 months, within which the kit must be finished or it starts to generate negative dollars for Moebius? Maybe it's different for each kit, though.

[charlie8575]

Cost a lot more to get it wrong than it does to get right.............................................................

Exactly.

Moebius, generally does do a pretty good job at getting it right. For the domestic-based manufacturers, they're the ones to beat.

Charlie Larkin

[Matt T.]

I have to believe that, when a roof is 2-3" scale inches too low, or wheel lips are too pronounced, the development is just too far along when it's noticed to be economically feasible to fix. I have to belive that. People aren't missing these flaws, the fixes are getting voted down.

For 2015 I may join the "happy just to get a kit" crowd. They seem happier.

[johnbuzzed]

Tiny, little details are one thing. Major dimensional or contour discrepancies are another, and they are inexcusable. The kits that are being introduced today are of subjects of which the actual vehicle can be found. Maybe not in your or your neighbor's garage or your neighborhood or even your state, but they are out there. Research. Accurate measurements. Pictures, pictures and more pictures. Time, effort and accuracy. Pride and integrity. Care for the end user/builder. Consistency. And, if some steps to produce a more accurate kit cost more money, remember the adage: "Sometimes, you have to spend money to make money". You get what you pay for.

[mikemodeler]

Funny how the only guy involved in the model car manufacturing business comes on here and tries to explain the process and this forum is full of experts who JUST KNOW what the industry is doing incorrectly!

I suggest you self-proclaimed EXPERTS offer up your time, expertise and if necessary, additional working capital to the industry so they can get it right, just so there will be no complaining. I am sure Ed Sexton, Dave Metzner and the rest of the model car product managers would appreciate the extra help in getting a better product to market. If any of you had bothered to read or understand what Dave wrote you would know that inaccuracies are not intentional but are sometimes the result of limitations placed upon them for various reasons.

[StevenGuthmiller]

I wonder if LOUD ENGLISH is primary verbal communication language for non-Moebius manufacturers? Just sayin'

Just noticed BTW, there are 3-4 of us with 3-4 posts each, and 80 responses in the thread. Probably 30 supporting Mr. M, and the rest minus HVAC rants telling us "...perfection bad, perfection kill natives..." Gotta go back and look at some of these threads, see what percentage are pointing out obvious, and percentage complaining about whining, birthers, and Shtuppers. Hmmm. Nah.

There is no such thing as perfection! Good luck in you pursuit of it! Steve

[Art Anderson]

Have you tried to get into Wal-Mart ?( I'm not trying to say it like a smartass) , but really try to get your kits on Wal-Mart Shelves?

FWIW, WalMart pretty much dropped model kits right at 10-years ago, as a regular feature in their toy departments. This wasn't just a single product area move, but part of a system-wide reduction in the square-footage allotted for their toy department in general (BTW, the same thing happened at Target, K-Mart, Meijer and numerous other regional Big Box chains. With WalMart, it was simply a matter of how much salable merchandise could be stocked in a specific length of store gondola's: The space allotted, say, to 3 1:25 scale model car kits can hold up to 36 (3-dozen) blister-carded items, which would sell much faster, generate more $$ for the space (think real estate space there).

Another issue (and I lived with this on a daily basis while doing product development at Playing Mantis Johnny Lightning diecasts, just down the hallway from Dave's office in Polar Lights): WalMart expects the vast majority of their vendors to produce what THEY want, deliver it exactly when THEY want it, and more importantly, to guarrantee the sales of their products at WalMart. That meant that at the end of a specified period, WalMart could return any unsold product to the manufacturer, no questions asked, Now, think about it--if you are a model kit manufacturer, producing model kits for which you really do not know just what the sales rate will be for sure--would you take a deal like that? More and more, products that once seemed to be "staples" in the toy departments of Big Box stores have ceased to be stocked, for that very reason. Incidently, it's for this very reason that such chains such as the former Kaybee Toy & Hobby stores existed--that company made a career out of taking on unsold merchandise returned to the various manufacturers by the likes of Walmart. Today, outfits like Ollie's, Big Lots/Odd Lots, along with just about every dollar store chain thrive on other companies' unsold merchandise.

I mentioned that WalMart and other chains like them, expect new product ON THEIR schedule, regardless of the development process. For most Big Box stores, "resets" (that changing of store setups, product mixes, etc.) happen but two times a year anymore (it used to be 4), January and July--meaning any newly released product is expected by them to be in their warehouses at least a month before--miss that date, no sale, period.

So, it really should be no wonder that most model kit companies simply ignore the likes of Walmart.

Art

[StevenGuthmiller]

Funny how the only guy involved in the model car manufacturing business comes on here and tries to explain the process and this forum is full of experts who JUST KNOW what the industry is doing incorrectly!

I suggest you self-proclaimed EXPERTS offer up your time, expertise and if necessary, additional working capital to the industry so they can get it right, just so there will be no complaining. I am sure Ed Sexton, Dave Metzner and the rest of the model car product managers would appreciate the extra help in getting a better product to market. If any of you had bothered to read or understand what Dave wrote you would know that inaccuracies are not intentional but are sometimes the result of limitations placed upon them for various reasons.

Exactly! Everybody's an expert! & I'll bet that nobody here ever makes any mistakes & every thing they do & create is perfect. I don't like to settle for sub-par products either, but I don't pretend to know the model making business & even if I did, I think we should all have bigger fish to fry in our lives. Steve

[bobthehobbyguy]

Thanks Dave for providing insight into the realities of model production.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Funny how the only guy involved in the model car manufacturing business comes on here and tries to explain the process and this forum is full of experts who JUST KNOW what the industry is doing incorrectly!

I suggest you self-proclaimed EXPERTS offer up your time, expertise and if necessary, additional working capital to the industry so they can get it right, just so there will be no complaining. I am sure Ed Sexton, Dave Metzner and the rest of the model car product managers would appreciate the extra help in getting a better product to market. If any of you had bothered to read or understand what Dave wrote you would know that inaccuracies are not intentional but are sometimes the result of limitations placed upon them for various reasons.

And where did YOU get YOUR expertise?

Manufacturing is manufacturing, whether it's refrigerators, model cars, or locomotives. The same problems and constraints apply in every field. Quality vs. Time vs. Money.

I've been heavily involved in the design, development, tooling and production for a wide variety of products...high-end aftermarket performance car parts, aftermarket aircraft parts, commercial aviation parts, sports equipment, toys, medical devices and prosthetics, and tools...just to name a few.

NONE of the products I've been involved with would tolerate GROSS ERRORS. I WAS EXPECTED AND PAID TO CATCH THEM BEFORE THEY HAPPENED TOO FAR ALONG IN THE PROCESS TO CORRECT COST-EFFECTIVELY.

This is the way it works: YOU CHECK YOUR STUFF BEFORE YOU MAKE YOUR TOOLING.

RAPID PROTOTYPING ALLOWS "TEST SHOTS" TO BE 3D PRINTED AND ASSEMBLED BEFORE TOOLING IS CUT.

GROSS ERRORS ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Harry P.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Question: Why do so many of you equate "NO GROSS ERRORS" with "PERFECTION"?

These are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CONCEPTS, and NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

Mr. Metzner's company gets it, and consistently turns out product that really IS good enough. Revell does it a lot of the time, like the '50 Olds and the '57 Ford kits.

WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXPECT THIS LEVEL OF QUALITY EVERY TIME.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[mikemodeler]

And where did YOU get YOUR expertise?

Manufacturing is manufacturing, whether it's refrigerators, model cars, or locomotives. The same problems and constraints apply in every field. Quality vs. Time vs. Money.

I've been heavily involved in the design, development, tooling and production for a wide variety of products...high-end aftermarket performance car parts, aftermarket aircraft parts, commercial aviation parts, sports equipment, toys, medical devices and prosthetics, and tools...just to name a few.

NONE of the products I've been involved with would tolerate GROSS ERRORS. I WAS EXPECTED AND PAID TO CATCH THEM BEFORE THEY HAPPENED TOO FAR ALONG IN THE PROCESS TO CORRECT COST-EFFECTIVELY.

This is the way it works: YOU CHECK YOUR STUFF BEFORE YOU MAKE YOUR TOOLING.

RAPID PROTOTYPING ALLOWS "TEST SHOTS" TO BE 3D PRINTED AND ASSEMBLED BEFORE TOOLING IS CUT.

GROSS ERRORS ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Never did I state that I was an expert, unlike you do in about half of your posts. I live in a world where flaws are accepted as a result of humans being involved in the process of designing and manufacturing of products.

Obviously I am not qualified to know as much as you Bill, and probably no one else on this forum for that matter. Silly of me to suggest that you should offer your help to improve the flaws that you and many others find intolerable.

I guess I will go back to being a simple minded modeler who appreciated Dave explaining what his days are like designing model kits.

Jack wagons like you can ruin a good hobby with your holier-than-thou approach and know-it-all attitude. Must be Hell living in your world.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Harry P.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Must be Hell living in your world.

People who work for me either get it right, which is what I PAY FOR, or they work for somebody else.

And I'm FAR more critical of MY OWN WORK than I am of anyone else's.

One more thing: the things I build to make a living these days have to work, fit and function correctly THE FIRST TIME, or I do them over for FREE until they're right. Kinda tends to make one a little more aware of quality as "job one".

I guess in YOUR world, that's just unfair.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Dave Metzner]

Some of you just can't seem to understand the situation - I keep seeing that somebody "was paid to get it right". Yep, that's right -the problem, that you don't or won't understand, is that "somebody" was probably paid to get several projects right all at the same time.. NOT JUST the chrome trim on the wheel arches of that one kit you're complaining about today.

The days of large project development groups for model kits are LONG GONE!

Now everybody is trying to do more with less and less, all in an effort to produce new kits and still make some profit.

The days of walking out of your office and down the hall to the prototyping shop or the tooling shop to look at a prototype or a tool are history, that trip is now 15 hour by air!

When you depend on a partner on the other side of the world for your production there are untold numbers of things that can and do go wrong - from something so simple as a part number engraved wrong, to waking up one morning to find that your partner, in China, has gone out of business and that all your tooling and partially finished projects are locked up in his factory!

The reasons for flaws in kits do not boil down to "somebody was paid to get it "right" and didn't do his job!

"If they couldn't get it right they shouldn't have that job" is an easy arguement to make while you stand on the outside.

It doesn't set very well with some of us who are on the inside in this business and know better.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Dave Metzner

[Daddyfink]

Thanks Dave, and for the rest ........

[johnbuzzed]

Question: Why do so many of you equate "NO GROSS ERRORS" with "PERFECTION"?

These are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CONCEPTS, and NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

Mr. Metzner's company gets it, and consistently turns out product that really IS good enough. Revell does it a lot of the time, like the '50 Olds and the '57 Ford kits.

WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXPECT THIS LEVEL OF QUALITY EVERY TIME.

I agree.

And, as for the allowance of mistakes or errors, particularly in the instance of co$st $savings- remember what happened with GM and the ignition switches, and more recently, with the airbags, in multiple brands, that explode and send shards of metal through a vehicle's cabin? Co$t-cutting at it'$ fine$t.

In our world of scale modeling, there are are some things that should not be overlooked due to cost- ie, basic contours and dimensions. Otherwise, put a block of styrene in a box and call it a car model. If our community is so forgiving, why was there such a demand for a far-more-accurate '70 Barracuda for so many years?

Edited December 22, 2014 by johnbuzzed

[Dave Metzner]

I'd like to have complete control of everything that happens - half way around the world in a factory WHERE EVERYBODY SPEAKS CHINESE AND NOBODY HAS EVER SEEN A '61 PONTIAC - I DON"T neither does Revell or Round 2!

We can't afford a three year development cycle such as the Ford Pick-up trucks have had, neither can Revell or Round 2!

Bitch about it as much as you want, but there will be mistakes, compromises and errors made, or there will be no new kits - that's life in 2014.

I'm confident that some of you will find details that you don't like on our new kits that will be on shelves in 2015 and, inspite of everything that I've tried to explain here, will be asking how in 2015 anybody could produce a new kit with these "GROSS ERRORS"

Now, I have work to do , so I'm done!

Edited December 22, 2014 by Dave Metzner

[mk11]

Jack wagons like you...

Seems to me that so-called 'jack wagons' like Bill are the main reason 'Made in the USA' ever came to stand for anything at all. Guys that are doing their best with the talents bestowed upon them with sometimes limited resources to keep the hobby going are the ones we owe thanks to.

[bobthehobbyguy]

Dave thank you again for taking your time for providing the information.

Having been an engineer I can appreciate that there are always budget, manpower, and time contraints on projects. Finally from experience I've found that some people that can not or will not accept these realities. The adage you can only please some of the people some of the time is appropriate to this subject.

Keep up the good work.

[High octane]

For all you so-called engineers out there, getting your degree at Lionel University doesn't count. There are many crybabies out there with hundreds and maybe thousands of unbuilt kits in your "stash" and you guys just can't wait for the next new issue or re-issued kit to be out on the shelves. What's up with that? ANYBODY can buy or collect kits, but they were produced to be built, just like 1:1 cars are made to be driven.