Notre Dame Cathedral destroyed by fire

[Joe Handley]

2 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Lead is applied to a car body with an open flame, required to melt, flow, and adhere it to the steel substrate. I've been doing it for decades.

Lead roofing is applied cold, in sheets, plates, or "shingle" form, much like copper or tin or aluminum flashing, or other more conventional roofing materials.

Because lead is very malleable at room temperature, it's not necessary to heat it to get it to conform to its substrate when used as roofing, and it's attached with cold fasteners, overlapping much like shingles or tile roofing.

A hot tar or pitch may be used to seal some junctions, but is completely unnecessary in today's world of engineered chemical sealants.

Hot Tar Pitch could do that,  IIRC, that's how those churches in Chicago were lost. One crew realized what happened and just left the place to burn, no calls to 911  or anything!

[Oldcarfan27]

8 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

OMG !!! What about the football team? OMG !!! OMG !!!

Bill, I think it's just you and me. ?

[Ace-Garageguy]

9 hours ago, SfanGoch said:

Not so. The entire city of Dresden was essentially rebuilt to pre-WWII bombing state. Same with Nurnberg, Munich Bremen, Hannover and The Old Town in Warsaw.  Monte Cassino was reconstructed after being turned into rubble. There are numerous other examples.

I don't disagree with you that it will be rebuilt. Restoring it to pre-fire condition is another thing. There are far fewer craftsmen capable of working with old methods and materials today than there were after WW II, like those who restored the examples you cited.

But I don't have a problem seeing the wooden roof structure replaced with steel, and the 250-ton lead roof sheathing replaced with a lightweight composite, either. It will still be Notre Dame.

Thank God the exquisite stonework remains, complete with its flying buttresses, and will forever define the cathedral.

[iamsuperdan]

Did I read somewhere that almost half a billion dollars has been donated to assist with the rebuild?

Wow. 

I don't know if I'm impressed by the generosity or saddened that this much money has gone towards a building that is insured and owned by an organization worth billions.

A little of both, I think.

 

 

[Joe Handley]

46 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

Did I read somewhere that almost half a billion dollars has been donated to assist with the rebuild?

Wow. 

I don't know if I'm impressed by the generosity or saddened that this much money has gone towards a building that is insured and owned by an organization worth billions.

A little of both, I think.

 

 

Yup, Disney kicked in $5m too, from what I had read.

[iamsuperdan]

It kind of puts things into perspective. And shows just how easily rich people could help to solve world issues if they cared. 

[89AKurt]

IMHO, rebuilding with structural steel that isn't seen anyway, is the way to go. Can't use lead now, that kills people ~rolls eyes~, so use titanium for the roofing.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/04/notre-dame-cathedral-will-never-be-the-same-but-it-can-be-rebuilt/?fbclid=IwAR2NxjdPjJ5-36inqaLq61gPAIqrgnnW0jRw1O9IDkZh2AFzWzzsWVVg0Rk

[Snake45]

2 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

It kind of puts things into perspective. And shows just how easily rich people could help to solve world issues if they cared. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

It kind of puts things into perspective. And shows just how easily rich people could help to solve world issues if they cared. 

Getting kinda close to politics there, aren't we?

[iamsuperdan]

1 minute ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Getting kinda close to politics there, aren't we?

Where? 

There is no mention of politics anywhere near my comment. No countries mentioned, no specific people mentioned or alluded to, no governments mentioned.

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 hours ago, 89AKurt said:

IMHO, rebuilding with structural steel that isn't seen anyway, is the way to go. Can't use lead now, that kills people ~rolls eyes~, so use titanium for the roofing.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/04/notre-dame-cathedral-will-never-be-the-same-but-it-can-be-rebuilt/?fbclid=IwAR2NxjdPjJ5-36inqaLq61gPAIqrgnnW0jRw1O9IDkZh2AFzWzzsWVVg0Rk

I've suggested structural steel on a couple of sites already, emulating the look of the original structure. I've also suggested lightweight composite roof sheathing, or better yet, translucent solar panels (which are available) that would supply the building's electrical needs, and could be illuminated from inside to produce a soft glow at night.

Trying to slavishly replicate 800-year-old technology isn't the way to go this time.

[Ace-Garageguy]

17 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

Where? 

There is no mention of politics anywhere near my comment. No countries mentioned, no specific people mentioned or alluded to, no governments mentioned.

There's a clear and instantly recognizable allusion to current American politics, to anyone who's been paying attention anyway. But now I suppose I'll be put in time-out again for saying that.

Of course, the whole subject is pretty dicey anyway. After all...the building in question IS a Christian church. Dangerously close to another verboten topic, no?

Edited April 18, 2019 by Ace-Garageguy

[iamsuperdan]

26 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

There's a clear and instantly recognizable allusion to current American politics, to anyone who's been paying attention anyway. But now I suppose I'll be put in time-out again for saying that.

Contrary to popular opinion, the rest of the world does not spend every waking hour thinking about the US. You're the one bringing up American politics.

I'm talking about donations by the wealthy to something more important than a building.

 

27 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Of course, the whole subject is pretty dicey anyway. After all...the building in question IS a Christian church. Dangerously close to another verboten topic, no?

Using that logic, this whole thread should have been shut down the moment it was created.

 

[Snake45]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Getting kinda close to politics there, aren't we?

I thought so, too. If I'd made that comment, I'd expect a moderator to remove it--and probably hit me with a warning of some sort, too. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, iamsuperdan said:

...I'm talking about donations by the wealthy to something more important than a building...

The Cathedral of Notre Dame is far more than a "building".

It's a cultural icon that's 800 years old, took 200 years to build, and is a symbol of Western Civilization and its contribution to human history, art, engineering, and architecture.

[Ace-Garageguy]

In related news, a loony-toon was arrested after trying to enter St.Patrick's in NYC while carrying several gallons of gasoline and lighter fluid, and a veiled threat was made against Montreal's Notre Dame.

[High octane]

Generous people with money should not be criticized on how they spend THEIR money, as it belongs to them and no one else.

[ewetwo]

38 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

In related news, a loony-toon was arrested after trying to enter St.Patrick's in NYC while carrying several gallons of gasoline and lighter fluid, and a veiled threat was made against Montreal's Notre Dame.

I know Bill. The world is going crazy. 

[89AKurt]

10 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

There's a clear and instantly recognizable allusion to current American politics, to anyone who's been paying attention anyway. But now I suppose I'll be put in time-out again for saying that.

Of course, the whole subject is pretty dicey anyway. After all...the building in question IS a Christian church. Dangerously close to another verboten topic, no?

Ditto!  

[how does one paste a GIF, such as Michael Jackson eating popcorn?]

Edited April 19, 2019 by 89AKurt

[SfanGoch]

Right-click on the image. Select "copy image". In the reply box, right-click, click "paste" and the image will be in your comment.

[Lunajammer]

22 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Trying to slavishly replicate 800-year-old technology isn't the way to go this time.

I didn't agree with this at first, but almost all such structures show a history of repairs or remods set to the standard of their time. I just have weak faith in the lasting quality of today's consumer driven products and labor standards. But, I guess time will determine how that will be judged, just as it defines our respect for what has been done prior.

[Ace-Garageguy]

30 minutes ago, Lunajammer said:

...I just have weak faith in the lasting quality of today's consumer driven products and labor standards...

Agreed.

Though I'm not an architect, I do have a great deal of familiarity with materials and fabrication procedures from my own career. My father was an architectural engineer, and I've been around this stuff most of my life. I've done a fair bit of research this week as well.

According to what I've read, about 45 acres of second-growth oak timber was required to frame the original roof structure. I would personally shy away from replacing the wood with wood, simply to avoid the possibility of what happened this week from ever happening again.

Stainless steel structural elements, if used to replace the structure that burned, should easily last as long as the stone walls, especially if protected from rain. I've picked up pieces of stainless wreckage from WW II aircraft crash sites (75 years back) that show zero significant deterioration, even in very humid conditions. Normal structural steel would last equally well if kept dry, but much of today's crumbling infrastructure is dangerously deteriorated due to rust, though this is often ignored until, for instance, a bridge collapses. Any water ingress allowed by chinks in the roof sheathing could be disastrous in the long term, but proper inspection and maintenance would prevent problems for the covered roof structure of the cathedral. Obviously though, the inspection and maintenance of the old wooden structure was done well, as it lasted for 800 years...and everyone knows wet wood rots.

Extruded composite structural elements also have an essentially infinite life so long as they're not exposed to UV radiation, and could be a viable alternative to steel. Composite materials also are typically stronger than an equivalent weight of steel, so the weight of a roof structure could be reduced. This may become an issue if it's found the stone walls have been weakened.

Roof coverings pose another set of problems. Lead, as used on the building originally (which melted during the fire) should last 200 years or longer, but it's very heavy. Copper is lighter, more expensive, and also probably good for 200 years minimum. Here also, stainless is an option. Thin material produced for homes is normally warranted for 50 years, so a specially-fabbed thicker material should be easily good for 200 too. It can be treated to look just like the lead it would be replacing.

Modern composite or plastic external roofing materials, though cool and hip and lightweight, possibly translucent and/or also having photoelectric capabilities, would have a much shorter service life. Replacement at (probably) 20-year intervals would be likely.

Whoever is ultimately tasked with making these and other decisions needs to keep in mind the generally low standards of craftsmanship available today, and consider the very real need to design the assembly sequencing to be as idiot-proof as possible.

[1930fordpickup]

Yes Bill. The steel frame inside could be made to look like wood with many different materials. 

[OldTrucker]

17 hours ago, 1930fordpickup said:

Yes Bill. The steel frame inside could be made to look like wood with many different materials. 

Yes the steel could be wrapped to replicate wood beams. 

My sons do interior trim work and have done this in million+ dollar homes!

[Ace-Garageguy]

14 minutes ago, OldTrucker said:

Yes the steel could be wrapped to replicate wood beams. 

My sons do interior trim work and have done this in million+ dollar homes!

 

18 hours ago, 1930fordpickup said:

Yes Bill. The steel frame inside could be made to look like wood with many different materials. 

If the cathedral is returned to its original appearance, replicating the look of wooden roof structure is unnecessary, and was not my point. The wooden roof structure was not visible from inside the building. The actual ceiling that is visible is made of masonry, arch-supported hemispheres...part of which collapsed when the spire fell on it.

                                                               

The old wooden roof structure is above the ceiling, as in most buildings, and is what keeps water off of the masonry work of the ceiling proper...which, being closely-fitted stone blocks would be difficult to seal otherwise. This part of the structure is not seen from inside the main part of the building, and could be replaced with structural steel with no aesthetic considerations on the inside.