What does "NNL" stand for?

[spudmuffin1959]

I am curious. What does the letters "NNL" stand for? We have "NNL' east , west, north . nationals...I was wondering what do the letters signify. Thank you.

[kingiguana]

National Nameless Luminairies

[spudmuffin1959]

National Nameless Luminairies

Really? That to me does not make any sense...LOL

[kingiguana]

Yes, You can look it up, it has something to do with a model club or something a long time back

[Foxer]

This will give you some perspective on the source, but there are other people here that can give firsthand knowledge. Edited October 4, 2009 by Foxer

[george 53]

Actually, I THINK it means Nameless Notable Luminaries. This was the first type of NON competative contest type gathering of freinds/builders. It all started in Tom's garage, an just grew from there. I met Tom last year,and he was there again this year,runnin the T-Shirt sales again. Anyways, some other VERY notable builders were invited to that 1st meeting, and didn't attend, for whatever reason, so Tom an his crew, as a joke, jus named the meet, the NNL. At least that's how I was led to understand it. One of the other guys would know better than me,I'm sure.

[Scott Colmer]

NNL = Nameless National Luminaries. This term was originally coined by Mark G. (of GSL fame) in a letter to the editor he wrote to SAE essentially blasting the modeling community big names for not attending a model contest. A group of notable builders decided to hold a non-competitive meet and gave it the name of NNL. I believe our own Andy Martin was in attendance at that historic event. There are pictures and history published somewhere.

This first meet became the groundwork for similar meets across the country. I've been to a few different ones. The Nor Cal NNL is HUGE.

Personally, I really like the idea behind NNLs - a non competitive gathering, where builders can bring anything they want and share ideas and laughs. I have seen NNL "Best of Show" features lately that, in my opinion, are just turing NNLs into a 1 winner contest. People's choice may be OK, but even that is subject to clan nominations. But Best of Show - Nope. I just don't think awards should be part of the NNL scene.

Scott

[Harry P.]

Here's the "Reader's Digest condensed version" of the story, in Mark Gustavson's own words (from his "Custom Clinic" website):

I started to think seriously about creating a national model car championship that would have as its focus a dispassionate approach to subject matter and an absolute commitment to subject-matter neutrality and objective judging...as plans progressed, the name of the contest was changed to the First Invitational Model Car Championship (FIMCC), and was scheduled for April 11-13, 1980 in Omaha, Nebraska...

Remarkably, I believed such an event could be run by remote control from Salt Lake City, without on-site organization or a pre-existing base of national support. But FIMCC was doomed from the outset. A combination of benign neglect, blind enthusiasm and gross inexperience yielded appropriate results: It was a disaster...My failure to grasp the realities of contest organization and promotion was due to a foolish misjudgment of the responsibilities and complexities necessary to present such an event...

But, at this point, I made another error. You see, I was angry about the failure of FIMCC though the reasons for the failure were well known to me. Nevertheless, undaunted by my own lack of judgment, I wrote a Putty Thrower column for the March-April 1980 issue of Scale Auto Enthusiast in January of 1980 that got me in a lot of trouble with many Midwest modelers. Unfairly, I was upset with modelers from the Midwest that I had never met! In essence, I publicly complained about the lack of support for FIMCC from those "national luminaries who shall remain nameless" because, at the time, I thought that the absence of interest in FIMCC by old-time MPC builders was inexplicable and xenophobic. When I calmed down and thought through things, it became apparent to me that the venerable MPC contestants either didn't know about the contest or quite reasonably decided not to trust an upstart from Salt Lake City. I was not prepared, then in my youth, to admit -- in public -- that I was responsible for the FIMCC "nonevent." Predictably, the Ohio group were greatly perturbed with me, and led Tom Woodruff to create the NNL in response to my diatribe . That first NNL (the acronym was for "National Nameless Luminaries" -- an artful rephrase of my outburst) was held in the Summer of 1980 at Tom's home, and featured the now-famous presentation of models in a noncompetitive atmosphere.

[FloridaBoy]

Down here in South Florida, NNL refers to a judging approach in which contest attendees and passersby are given a ballot to vote on the best car in each category. Cars are all numbered and voting is by the number. This is an alternative to the conventional judging, in which many poor losers complained that their losing car was much better than the winner. Rather than "man up" and realize that every contest has winners and losers, this alternative judging method was designed to take the heat and work effort off contest officials.

The problem is that a person can paint a model red, build it flashy or with a eye catching characteristic, it wins, or if an entrant wants a win, he has all of his friends stuff the ballot box. This is not my way of running a contest, because at best the voters see the cars only on the top, can't see details, or even undercarriages.

The best alternative in my opinion is the system developed in 1980 in Ft Lauderdale by the IPMS, which is to document and record each car on a 100 point system, based on 8-10 categories of workmanship, realism, fit, shine, body work, clean up, and a score of other choices. The drawback is that when I used this system, I could almost tell which car won each division, and really didn't want to bother with anything below the top three. But to be fair, I filled out a judging sheet for every car and judged it, including writing a one paragraph narrative on the strengths and weaknesses of each entry. They were handed out to both winners and losers with a positive note encouraging improvement. But again, I would be besieged by sore losers, one noteworthy guy who practically physically assaulted me because I marked him down for an outrageous glue spot, and not cleaning up the mold marks under the running boards on the AMT 40 Ford, and we all know that requires some work.

So, what is the answer, we all like to enter, and all expect to win. Now that I am older, I still like to win, but take it all in with a tongue in cheek, as I have come to believe that only I am the final judge to my work, and since my stuff is so different, compariing my stuff to others is like apples to oranges.

Over the years, I have kept judging sheets on my cars, and now use them to judge my new work, both during progress and the final product, and what I do is the "quick 1 to 10" basis for each category for each car. To be honest, I am rough on others and my own stuff when judging a car.

Last thought is the calibre of judges. My opinion is that they be non contestants, not affiliated with any club or group, and to be an above average modeler who is well rounded and has years of experience with a wide variety of kits from all manufacturer. Again, just how many guys are around like that?

There is so much more to cover, but I prefer to think of the NNL as that great contest which started in Toledo, and now has branched out all over the country.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

[jas1957]

Mark's explanation is pretty close, The Name is Nameless National Luminaries not National Nameless. Also the event in Tom Woodruff's garage was not in response to the article in Scale Auto but just happened to take place (June 1980) just after that issue of SAE was out. Of course the guys in attendance had a bit of fun with his outburst and the name and event was born.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who made it to the Toledo NNL Nationals this past Saturday. The new location worked out well and I think a good time was had by all. We are set for next year at the same place and date October 2nd, 2010. Theme will be Bikes, Trikes, & Motorcycles.

John Strick

Cleveland Automotive Modelers

[BigGary]

Mark's explanation is pretty close, The Name is Nameless National Luminaries not National Nameless. Also the event in Tom Woodruff's garage was not in response to the article in Scale Auto but just happened to take place (June 1980) just after that issue of SAE was out. Of course the guys in attendance had a bit of fun with his outburst and the name and event was born.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who made it to the Toledo NNL Nationals this past Saturday. The new location worked out well and I think a good time was had by all. We are set for next year at the same place and date October 2nd, 2010. Theme will be Bikes, Trikes, & Motorcycles.

John Strick

Cleveland Automotive Modelers

I read somewhere it was No Name Luminaries

Gary

[tabsscale1]

Down here in South Florida, NNL refers to a judging approach in which contest attendees and passersby are given a ballot to vote on the best car in each category. Cars are all numbered and voting is by the number. This is an alternative to the conventional judging, in which many poor losers complained that their losing car was much better than the winner. Rather than "man up" and realize that every contest has winners and losers, this alternative judging method was designed to take the heat and work effort off contest officials.

The problem is that a person can paint a model red, build it flashy or with a eye catching characteristic, it wins, or if an entrant wants a win, he has all of his friends stuff the ballot box. This is not my way of running a contest, because at best the voters see the cars only on the top, can't see details, or even undercarriages.

The best alternative in my opinion is the system developed in 1980 in Ft Lauderdale by the IPMS, which is to document and record each car on a 100 point system, based on 8-10 categories of workmanship, realism, fit, shine, body work, clean up, and a score of other choices. The drawback is that when I used this system, I could almost tell which car won each division, and really didn't want to bother with anything below the top three. But to be fair, I filled out a judging sheet for every car and judged it, including writing a one paragraph narrative on the strengths and weaknesses of each entry. They were handed out to both winners and losers with a positive note encouraging improvement. But again, I would be besieged by sore losers, one noteworthy guy who practically physically assaulted me because I marked him down for an outrageous glue spot, and not cleaning up the mold marks under the running boards on the AMT 40 Ford, and we all know that requires some work.

So, what is the answer, we all like to enter, and all expect to win. Now that I am older, I still like to win, but take it all in with a tongue in cheek, as I have come to believe that only I am the final judge to my work, and since my stuff is so different, compariing my stuff to others is like apples to oranges.

Over the years, I have kept judging sheets on my cars, and now use them to judge my new work, both during progress and the final product, and what I do is the "quick 1 to 10" basis for each category for each car. To be honest, I am rough on others and my own stuff when judging a car.

Last thought is the calibre of judges. My opinion is that they be non contestants, not affiliated with any club or group, and to be an above average modeler who is well rounded and has years of experience with a wide variety of kits from all manufacturer. Again, just how many guys are around like that?

There is so much more to cover, but I prefer to think of the NNL as that great contest which started in Toledo, and now has branched out all over the country.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

We used to do that at our contest but we started seeing Ballot stuffing. Now only the contestants can vote on the contest and it comes out just right . The modelers themselves know which one is best on the table.

[Harry P.]

The best alternative in my opinion is the system developed in 1980 in Ft Lauderdale by the IPMS, which is to document and record each car on a 100 point system, based on 8-10 categories of workmanship, realism, fit, shine, body work, clean up, and a score of other choices.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

That seems like a pretty good way to do it.

Judging can never be made 100% objective, but by having specific objective categories to judge each entry at least you can keep the judging somewhat objective.

[Modelmartin]

I read somewhere it was No Name Luminaries

Gary

You may have read that but it is wrong. John Strick has it exactly right. I was there and that is how it happened. John wasn't at the first one but he was at many of the early ones and for many years now has helped put on the Toledo Nationals show along with his club members. They deserve much thanks for doing such a good job for so many years now.

The First Toledo NNL was held in my room at the long-gone Toledo Turnpike Motel. The Second one was held in Mark Gustavson's room!! After that we were at the Holiday Inn. Ooh! Moving up in the world. After about 5 years or so we ended up at the Lucas County Rec Center which was the home of the NNL until this year. Good times!

[george 53]

Thanks Andy!!! This years(an all the OTHER years) was sure a FAR CRY from a motel room! I had a GREAT time as did everyone else! Thanks to ALL you guys who sat around inna motel room tradein quips an just groovein on our beloved model cars! EVERYONE who reads this thread owes you an all the other guys a BIG vote of THANKS AND APPERICIATION!!!

THANK YOU'S!!!!!! :

[tim boyd]

You may have read that but it is wrong. John Strick has it exactly right. I was there and that is how it happened. John wasn't at the first one but he was at many of the early ones and for many years now has helped put on the Toledo Nationals show along with his club members. They deserve much thanks for doing such a good job for so many years now.

The First Toledo NNL was held in my room at the long-gone Toledo Turnpike Motel. The Second one was held in Mark Gustavson's room!! After that we were at the Holiday Inn. Ooh! Moving up in the world. After about 5 years or so we ended up at the Lucas County Rec Center which was the home of the NNL until this year. Good times!

To clarifyeven further, the first ever NNL was in Tom Woodruff's garage in summer, 1980. The one Andy refers to above was the first one in Toledo. Andy was at both events, as was I.

Best regards...TIM

[dencon]

To clarifyeven further, the first ever NNL was in Tom Woodruff's garage in summer, 1980. The one Andy refers to above was the first one in Toledo. Andy was at both events, as was I.

Best regards...TIM

So the very first NNL at Tom's garage evolved into , What? When was the last one or is it still going on today. I thought that the Toledo NNL was the one that evolved from the one at Tom's.

Thanks for the info.

Matt

[jas1957]

The first of what was to become the NNL took place in Tom Woodruff's garage in June 1980. It was a group of friends that had known each other from the old MPC model contests in the 70's. Since most lived within a couple hour drive from Toledo and usually went to the toy show anyway it was decided to meet again there and the NNL Nationals was born. There has been a meeting at the toy show every October since with anywhere from 20 to 400 + in attendance. The most recent was just this last Satruday Oct. 3rd and we have plans already in place to meet again next year.

John Strick

Edited October 7, 2009 by jas1957

[dencon]

The first of what was to become the NNL took place in Tom Woodruff's garage in June 1980. It was a group of friends that had known each other from the old MPC model contests in the 70's. Since most lived within a couple hour drive from Toledo and usually went to the toy show anyway it was decided to meet again there and the NNL Nationals was born. There has been a meeting at the toy show every October since with anywhere from 20 to 400 + in attendance. The most recent was just this last Satruday Oct. 3rd and we have plans already in place to meet again next year.

John Strick

Thanks John. So I was on the right track. I wish that I did not live so far away from all of the GREAT shows of our hobby history. I have wanted to go to this NNL for 25 years. If the day ever comes that this economy gets bette and I am able to make the money to travel. I want to start going to all of them. One can dream.

Matt

[tim boyd]

The first of what was to become the NNL took place in Tom Woodruff's garage in June 1980. It was a group of friends that had known each other from the old MPC model contests in the 70's. Since most lived within a couple hour drive from Toledo and usually went to the toy show anyway it was decided to meet again there and the NNL Nationals was born. There has been a meeting at the toy show every October since with anywhere from 20 to 400 + in attendance. The most recent was just this last Satruday Oct. 3rd and we have plans already in place to meet again next year.

John Strick

John got it exactly right.

For a bit of further context here....John, Glenn Marek, and Bob Koptis were among a a group that joined the original 'NNL 5' for either the second or third NNL meet (there was one in Cleveland at the auto show in addition to the Toledo even) and all three of them have toiled relentlessly over the ensuing 30 years to keep the original NNL (now what we call the NNL Nationals) alive and well. There are others who have been extremely active over the years, but I recall John, Glenn and Bob as being there nearly from the very start, AND we sall ALL 3 of them alive and very well at the 30th NNL Nationals last weekend.

By the way , for my 2 cents I though the new facility was fabulous and the NNL event was as well populated as I can ever recall. Way to go, everyone who attended!!!

TIM

[jas1957]

Wow Tim thanks for the kind words. I didn't know if anyone else remembered all that. I first met Bob Bost ( one of the originals ) in Nov.-Dec. 1980 when he was organizing a model club here in the Cleveland area. That winter he kept telling us about this group of great modelers that had met & just talked about model cars. That next June (1981 ) he invited me, Glenn, & Bob to our first NNL, held in Cleveland the same weekend as the Hot Rod Nationals. There I met you, Chuck Helppe, Tom Woodruff, & Tom Dillion. Having spent the late 70's building in solitude, then getting a magazine & meeting all these other adult modelers within a couple years. It was quite a rush. That Oct. about 20 of us met in a room at the Toledo Turnpike Motel ( interestingly now the location of a Toys-R-Us ) & the rest as they say is history. The idea of a non-competitive event obviously struck a chord & spread very rapidly. Literally all over the world. While I believe that judged contests are & always will be important, there is something about just displaying & talking about models that is very positive. What was a bit of a radical idea 30 years ago is now the norm.

John Strick

[StevenGuthmiller]

Sorry for resurrecting a 15 year old thread, but I had a very interesting discussion/argument with a guy on Facebook this afternoon about the origin of the NNL.

It wound up being quite humorous!

 

Someone asked a question about one of the NNL shows no longer taking place in one of it's traditional locations, I don't remember which one.

Somewhere along in the discussion, an individual asked what NNL stood for.

The first guy answered that it stood for "national", meaning world wide.

Knowing that NNL stands for "Nameless National Luminaries", which I assumed was fairly common knowledge, or at least easily obtainable knowledge, I entered into the discussion and informed them both what it meant.

 

Well, you would have thought I had stabbed his grand mother!

 

No matter how many links or other evidence of the NNL's beginnings and existence that I offered, it was no go! 

All that he kept offering in his defense was, "I've been participating in model shows for 55 years, and I know that NNL stands for national". 

 

I tried my best to make him understand that the NNL is it's own entity, with it's own network, and that it's not a judged contest, all to no avail.

I even posted links, to not only this discussion page, but to an hour and a half long YouTube video from the "Model Car Muse" YouTube page which featured most of the founders of the NNL discussing how it all started!

None of it sunk in.

His link consisted of an "acronym' web site with a few other possible uses for the letters nnl.

In the end, he informed me that he had over 100 trophies or awards, most, or all of which had NNL on them.

At this point, I figured I finally had him by the short hairs, and asked him to produce photos of awards that were given by an entity that doesn't judge the models entered!

To which I was promptly told that, unlike me, he had a life and wasn't at home to produce any proof.

 

I prepared myself by taking a few photos of a few of the People's Choice plaques and club sponsored awards that I had received at NNL shows over the years to prove to him that the NNL is in fact a real thing, and not just some acronym for any "national" contest, but before any further discussion could take place, the entire discussion disappeared from the group.

Don't know if he blocked me or what, but he apparently took his trophies and went home. 

 

Anyway, I just thought that some might find this story a bit amusing, as I did, that there are still apparently people out there, who claim to have hundreds of awards from 55 years of model show attendance who still don't know what the NNL is, or what the letters stand for.

 

Another humorous note:

My wife was texting back and forth with my 35 year old daughter during my exchange with this guy, and she told her that I was "arguing with a guy on Facebook about what NNL stood for".

about a minute later, my daughter, who knows absolutely nothing about models, sent back a text that said, "Nameless National Luminaries". "Took me about three seconds to find that out". "This guy must be stupid!"  

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

[BlackSheep214]

Some folks are still wearing horseblinds…

I never heard of NNL myself but now knowing it, I got an education. There’s not a whole lot of model shows in my area; NNL or not - except one that I attend to every October called Syrcon in Syracuse, NY area.

[Ace-Garageguy]

On 1/24/2024 at 8:22 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

...To which I was promptly told that, unlike me, he had a life and wasn't at home to produce any proof.

...there are still apparently people out there, who claim to have hundreds of awards from 55 years of model show attendance who still don't know what the NNL is, or what the letters stand for.

Welcome to the standard world of interdwerbdom.

No matter what the subject, no matter how thoroughly versed in it you may be, no matter how well you know it and KNOW you know it, and no matter how many links or documents or court records or studies or patents or video of actual events you can try to show them, there's always some clown (or dozens or even millions depending on the topic) who can simply NOT be swayed in their mistaken beliefs...and who will argue forever.

It's such a common phenomenon today, it's kinda surprising there's not a clinical category for it in the DSM...though the Dunning-Kruger effect partially describes the fool who is so stupid and so certain, in his ignorance, that he's right, that he won't or can't tolerate any conflicting information. 

There's an entire class of personality who behave this way, people apparently so desperate to be RIGHT, as though the integrity of their egos hinges on BEING right, that they just don't give a blank about what's actually TRUE.

And when backed up against a wall and asked to provide one single piece of verifiable evidence to back their beliefs, you invariably get the "I have a life and can't waste my valuable time to produce any proof" response, or some variation thereof.

Edited January 26 by Ace-Garageguy

[peteski]

57 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Knowing that NNL stands for "Nameless National Luminaries", which I assumed was fairly common knowledge, or at least easily obtainable knowledge, I entered into the discussion and informed them both what it meant.

Well, you would have thought I had stabbed his grand mother!

No matter how many links or other evidence of the NNL's beginnings and existence that I offered, it was no go! 

All that he kept offering in his defense was, "I've been participating in model shows for 55 years, and I know that NNL stands for national". 

I tried my best to make him understand that the NNL is it's own entity, with it's own network, and that it's not a judged contest, all to no avail.

Unfortunately this is quite common in the world we currently live in.  While not too dangerous in this instance, but the same thing happens with political views, and there the problem is much more severe.  People seem to live in their own little world of their "facts", and no matter how much proof you feed them showing that their facts are not correct, they just don't accept of believe your proof.  I hope some day we can break out of this cycle (but it doesn't look too good).

Edited January 25 by peteski