swede70

Those look great - thanks for sharing... Mike K./Swede70

Beautiful - looks great. Thanks for sharing... Mike K./Swede70

Pleased to read that the images were of help then... Regarding the rear suspension of the Gray Ghost and mulling what was spoken of before, I thought it best to revisit this aspect of the project for including another photo. This would be from the A.B. Shuman penned and photographed September 1971 Motor Trend article titled Ask Herb's Wife If We Can Take Her Car Racing. Apparently earlier in the season an off the shelf G.M. rear sway bar, quite literally a bolt-on piece absent links or means of adjustment, was employed on the vehicle. Notice too that the geometry-altering structure affixed to the top of the differential housing hasn't yet been worked up and fitted. Finally, know that the odd rectangular structure seen to the upper right masks one of the the pair of Holley fuel pumps situated at the forward corners of the fuel cell, these positioned below the level of the floor as spoken of before. This is the only period image I know of the car from this angle, while efforts to turn up further photos; i.e. those unused and unpublished from the A.B. Shuman session conducted that day via the P.P./SEMA archive have not met with success. Perhaps such may be added onto the archive in time, but as this was written none are to be found regardless of how dexterous one is for mixing up search terms. Thanks... Mike K./Swede70

Looking good - thanks for the visuals! Mike K./Swede70

Here's a flood of images that may pull things together. Understand that the flow of oil is carried to a pair of Harrison oil coolers situated to the left and right of the radiator further forward. If it would help, I could post images helping to track how things were routed. The dry sump system oil tank is clearly well-buried in the firewall, while what line pours oil in and which draws the same out will be readily inferred. Thanks... ...I have other images, although some simply eliminate possibilities for revealing little. Thanks... Mike K./Swede70

Hi Doctor Larry and all good questions... Certainly it's possible, while right across projects continuing across the '70''s and beyond Herb Adams and friends stepped right up to the oiling issues on the Pontiac V8 for advocating the use of dry sump systems. Fire Am's, etc. commonly are seen with such fitted. Further and following up, the drive system on the Gray Ghost and possibly later projects was rather unusual to the extent that no external pump with the expected Gilmer belt drive is to be seen. What was fabricated and employed inside was described as a 'direct drive' system employing an automatic transmission-derived pump at the rear of the engine that was wholly out of sight. Some operational hiccups were encountered for employing the unique setup, but probably no more than what might be expected for pathfinding in this direction. By '73 one might imagine that if concept was sound and worked well across previous applications, then why not fit such? Certainly it did away with the vulnerability of an exposed rubber belt... Harry and others would know more, although I believe the High Performance Pontiac issue concerning the history of the Pontiac V8 with special reference to its development in high performance applications would provide more specific and detailed guidance. This would be the September 2012 issue, although know it was a series across issues that likely would be good to grab in total. Hope this helps... Mike K./Swede70

Just a short addition this... Some accessory decal art has proven difficult to find, although one of the toughies if you will has been isolated for what is seen further below. Further, a new 1:18th scale Sun Star '64 GTO was found and ordered to allow some flexibility concerning aspects of that build. In addition a set of ACME 1:18th 'Heinz Camaro' wheels and tires were ordered so that I'll have a total of four same-sized tires, admittedly these bearing the late-season 'T.V. tire' lettering. I have another set of like-lettered tires, albeit these were of differing size front-to-rear - hence the need for a pair of the rears of identical spec. to come up with what is needed. The rims and extended Minilite lugs are being cleaned up and fabricated and final finished, hence when the wheels/tires are added, the total appearance of such will certainly be different. I'll try to finish the wheels from behind a 'house blend' of magnesium alloy, then paint the face of each wheel in a semi-sloppy sense from the front with the aim of allowing a certain amount of black to pass between each spoke to haphazardly coat some of what is lurking behind. On the 1:25th scale front, some Bill Hirsh early Pontiac '59 -''65 light blue paint will be ordered, almost my default given what other shades I've found seem too bright or intense by way of contrast. Three variations on the shade thus far tried and shot, and three failures I do believe. I might well pick up a Revell '66 GTO for I don't know what the tool has on offer, while a roll cage assembly still stands to be worked up. Also, it seems that while early sixties renderings of racing exhaust headers exist aplenty, reasoned later iterations of such are few on the ground. Researching this, I hope to come up with something decent soon. Seen then are a pair of images useful for guidance concerning the reproduction of the hood-mounted Diamond Racing Engines/Mount Clemens decal employed late season as a pair. One is used to establish the color, the other, the art itself. Tedious, but also rewarding if I can act upon such. ...the subject in the paddock at '71 St. Jovite then. ...this the Team Associates Grand Am Winston Cup/NASCAR effort from '73. I hope the art hadn't changed much! Thanks for reviewing this update - cluster of words though it may be... Mike K./Swede70

Very nice progress made across assemblies - thanks for sharing... Mike K./Swede70

That's a good idea on the book front. I just checked mine, but being a later edition from 1993, all the photos are contemporary to that time. Sometimes I've identified a title and chased earlier copies, even quite grubby ones placed on eBay and such for little, just in pursuit of earlier photos and diagrams if they might be unearthed. The Carroll Smith and Paul Van Valkenburgh chassis titles are updated along the same lines; i.e. basic principles and text remain about the same, while finer details and photos are revised and may preclude ready reference if one is hoping to find content that may only have featured in an earlier edition. Near worthless at a glance, sometimes obsolete product catalogs can have their utility, with race efforts of the past tossing up images in publications two or three years later in the most unexpected fashion. Most people throw them out, but isolated examples crawl out of area landfills and turn up at swap meets and such. Just as an aside, the softcover Steve Smith publications in relation to preparing a race engine, brakes, chassis, etc. are all sound purchases and worth having for the period stock car or road racing modeler. One I have is titled Race Car Braking Systems by Steve Smith and Paul Lamar from 1975. It doesn't look like much at first glance, but the contents relate to coming up with the most effective combination of parts utilizing off the shelf components that includes measurements of most of same. As time passed the parts and assemblies employed across series became more and more specialized and decidedly nonstock, hence it was neat to review a copy of something filled with period know how concerning the best use of the seemingly mundane. Sometimes sellers will bundle a few of his titles together, and this can be a good way to go. I found the Matt Adams/VSE angle a tough one for searching even as I felt the information was generally good. Only as I was about to sign off did I bother to skim my Facebook presence, while for visiting an Historic SCCA Trans Am page did I happen to notice the presence of Matt Adams there. Maybe a contact of last resort then. Thanks for the update... Mike K./Swede70

Some of my photos were taken so close-in as to obscure other details that otherwise stood to be made out. At the time they were taken, I wasn't so much concerned with the quantity that I might take, but rather that I'd waste the opportunity to capture specific information that could be gleaned for crawling around with abandon. For review of those images I took and have uploaded thus far, the shocks are either visible or just marginally out of the frame. One shot afforded further up the thread shows the end of one of the control arms and what appears to be a stud that would accept the bottom end of a shock, although in point of fact the shock is there, it's just mounted outboard and even a bit behind of what is visible. I did visit the car twice, while the visits largely coincided with a Plymouth MI. concours event (Concours d'Elegance of America at St. Johns then) where the car would make up part of a Trans Am-themed display in the company of other vehicles of note. If you have or might have seen the Dave Tom title The Cars of Trans Am Racing 1966 - 1972, most of the images reproduced within concerning the Gray Ghost were taken during this event. Some light service was done in the form of an oil change as well as a light tune to ensure that the vehicle wouldn't afford trouble for being moved on and off a trailer, or negotiating the show field to be displayed, etc., although I suspect that was about all it got. Thanks... Oh, and just in passing, for quick review of Facebook, Matt Adams shows up in a fairly straight forward way. Look for imagery that speaks of the old 'Trans Am Territory' gatherings of yore, as well as a bold Silverbird picture with the car seen in a front three-quarter profile. He seems based in Detroit which makes sense to the extent that I believe I'd met him at an area book signing. He took a few phone camera images of my larger model to share with friends and family, which of course was fun. Mike K./Swede70

Greetings Larry, Sorry - the shocks are there, albeit barely visible but for an orange/red diagonal flash seen here and there in the images provided. Sometimes race shock installations are altered to the extent of having them set more or less vertically to be most effective in their operation at the price of introducing a certain harshness in ride quality, whereas on the Gray Ghost they seem to have remained in their stock configuration in relation to how they were sited for pick up points both high and low. Maybe too on a mass-produced design where expensive additional locating links aren't in the budget, a slight side-to-side dampening action is desired even if such is imperfectly availed? Back to the images of the Gray Ghost hitherto observed, where the eye expects to see a shock set at a solid 80-90 degree angle, instead one 'senses' a shock slashing through the image on the edges at 45 degrees. O.K. - I've found something a bit better and have plugged in the same just below: I see the reinforcement plates of which you speak in the photo you've added to the thread and have likewise mulled what such could be. The four bar system typically obviates the need for bolt-on fixes employed on parallel leaf spring installations to counter axle movement across planes. In short, no overrider or underrider traction bars, or Shelby GT350-style dampers integrated into any such assembly have ever been personally witnessed to counteract or dampen movement on a period racer. This much said, observe that Harry Quakenboss relates on the other Twin Gray Ghost thread that the four bar system nevertheless carried with it certain challenges in the form of traction woes coming out of turns, while to run variations on the theme of stock parts when leaf spring setups and long Chevrolet pickup trailing arms were well understood or set to become the standard was to explore much independently. Perhaps some other system was explored and not soon followed up upon by Herb Adams and crew given the later and then typically Firebird-based efforts ran leaf springs in the back by way of contrast? Just above this post, Tim relates in a reasoned and matter-of-fact way that rear sway bars weren't 1973 NASCAR fashion or practice, although between Penske and Team Associates, if any entry was going to push the envelope and introduce new practices looking forward (for good or for ill), then maybe such was run? I don't know enough here, and would be wary to suggest to anyone strictly what to do. A short while ago I was viewing pictures of the roll cage fitted to the early '72 season Penske Matador. One would expect a curious mix of NASCAR and SCCA Trans Am practice, and indeed - what challenge it would be to do THAT in scale for having seen it! I wonder too if Herb Adams might be contacted to afford quick and clarifying insight if a message was intelligently written and might be answered in a brief fashion consistent with responding to what was well laid out? Consistent with establishing contact, I tried to gather up some information consistent with chasing leads. In the past I've spoken to his son Matt who can be found online for a bit of searching for the use of 'V.S.E. by Matt Adams' in conjunction with his latter day 'Cheverra' transkits, as well as his Cobra efforts which turn up for references across Cobra-specific message boards. National Parts Depot handles some of the Cheverra materials, hence this might constitute another line of approach. Some Contessa project information is also out there, but when this was written the data seemed older and less reliable. Seek out the son, and perhaps he in turn might approach his father with questions you might pose... And in closing (for this message anyways), don't let me beat you up too badly for suggesting this or that. Telegraphing my insecurities and attaching my judgement to anyone else's creative efforts or endeavors can have a harsh and unhelpful edge that can be unintentionally nonconstructive for bringing a project to a halt. My own projects too frequently stop dead for mulling this or that assembly - so what do I do? I hunt down the work of others and redirect my insecurities! Trusting you'll keep it fun and know when enough information to proceed forward is yours in hand... Mike K./Swede70

Looks very sound and accomplished. Thanks for sharing... Mike K./Swede70

Oh, and another thing this... On old Bud Moore and Shelby Racing Co.Trans Am Mustangs they would fit a squat, rectangular section brake cooling scoop right at the base of the rear axle on either side. These were handmade, certainly light weight, and could hardly hurt the cause. Such an assembly or assemblies could account for the 'structure shadow' seen in the PP images. Thanks... Mike K./Swede70

Hello again... This should help - sorry I did not think to afford them before because some of this must certainly carry over. In an unrestored state some things can be missed or overlooked, hence I've tried to scribble in a few notes consistent with passing on what I've learned for poking and prodding. ...things to see above include the eccentric plates machined to mate the axle tubes to the diff. housing at an angle to afford negative camber. Note too the zip ties on the base of the springs to ensure they'll not slip out, cables to prevent dislocation of assemblies at full rebound, and screw clamps employed to combat slippage of the rear sway bar bushings. Things to see include the revised and nonstock top links for the four bar setup, as well as fabricated pick up points to revise the geometry versus stock. The diff. cover was painted orange in this instance. Not elaborate, but notice the small pinion snubber fitted, while further notice the additional material welded in to box the bottom arm or bar of the four bar rear suspension. ...maybe another thing employed, on the Gray Ghost a Firestone fuel cell was used, while the fuel pump set up seemed a bit unusual. A pair of Holley pumps were mounted forward of the fuel cell within individually fabricated pockets with floors set lower than the standard dimensions afforded, while the structure for these pockets is plainly visible from below. I hope some of this helps, while I really like the effort you've made thus far to capture a very neat topic in scale. Thanks for all you do in turn... Mike K./Swede 70

Greetings Larry, If it helps, the Gray Ghost rear suspension was quite stripped down in relation to axle location beyond the rather standard looking four bar setup employed. Much stiffer bushings of whatever material employed took up a certain amount of movement or slop. No strict need for a Panhard rod, no additional trailing links, and certainly no Watts link was seen. A B.O.P. rear axle assembly was employed even as rules allowed the fitting of something other than this, hence it seems that it was both strong and reliable enough. Given the profusion of 'too stock to be believed' stampings and assemblies across the Grand Am in photos, I think I'd recommend the B.O.P. axle (being 'Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac') be employed. Some effort was made to alter the geometry of the pickup points of the arms heading back from my photos, while it seems by the time the Team Associates Grand Am effort was mounted, a diff. cooler was judged necessary. KONI shocks were seen then, but I'm really not versed or knowledgeable enough to suggest what was de riguer in Winston Cup NASCAR come 1973. I'll return to this post to plug in a few rear end images from the 1:1 unrestored car even as they might not communicate all you'd hope. Thanks... Mike K./Swede70

Greetings Dr. Larry, I suspect that the intake isn't terribly different from what they ran on their '72-season Firebird Trans Am car as driven by Milt Minter. Via the link provided you'll find a lengthy thread focused on the Pontiac Firebird in the SCCA Trans-Am Series. Scan about halfway down it and you'll stumble across a few period photographs taken by one Ken Ulrich that will afford at least another shot of the intake, plus guidance as to finishes across the engine given it's a color image. See then: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7815.0;all Mike K./Swede70

Greetings Larry, Not having remotely comparable topic knowledge in relation to period NASCAR as yourself, I too was thinking '...gee, this doesn't look like something that was ordered by phone from Banjo Matthews!'. It really was so atypical and special, and competitive against strong odds. Neat stuff all, while your previous work to be set aside in the moment will surely find a home soon - no worries. Mike K./Swede70

Very nice - great stance. Same chassis I'd used (or rather am using) on my smaller Gray Ghost. Thanks for sharing... Mike K./Swede70

Terrific! Sorry but happy as they say given 'now you know'! Mike K.

Greetings Harry and thank you for the further insight(s) shared... For perusing a copy of the Sports Car Club of America General Competition Rules 1971 edition, indeed - dry sump systems were legal for the coming season. The wording of such is as follows: "Any oil pan (sump), oil pump(s) or oil pick-up is allowed. Dry sump systems are permitted provided the oil tanks is located forward of the engine compartment firewall." It seems both the AMC Javelins as well as the Gray Ghost blended the oil tanks fitted into the structure of the firewall, while in the main, all was now permitted. In passing, another article that may be sought out not strictly period is the April 2000 issue of Car & Driver which has a Tony Swan-penned article within titled Return of the Gray Ghost. Across the space of it, Herb Adams relates in brief the history of the effort while also having been reacquainted with the car which had received a light mechanical refurbishment dating back to 1996. If my memory is to be trusted, Pontiac was the title sponsor of the Meadowbrook Historic Races at Waterford Hills Road Racing that year, and both happy and fortunate I was to see it then. For a few brief years a 'Trans Am Tour' made up of a few period cars came through the venue for it's historic weekend tied to the local concours event, but so soon the big cars (i.e. 02 Trans Am sedans, F5000, Can Am, and even the odd F1 car) effectively vanished from both the event and venue. Waterford Hills is a fairly tight club circuit, and hence maybe word spread that bigger cars wouldn't strictly be a home here? I'm not certain why matters faded a bit in the coming years, while organizational infighting and battles as to the makeup of the area concours scene, want of event sponsors, and declining economic times were surely factors. Oh, and just in passing, for a little work, know that the poster produced for the event was Trans-Am themed that year, and hence carries a bit of interest even as the Gray Ghost does not appear upon it. More to come... - Just some further aspects of the 1:18th build then... ...trying to accommodate the discreet engine set back, I tried to reproduce what was done. Some ERTL Authentics '67 Impala SS 427 parts were employed, while the scissor hood hinge assemblies will very likely be stolen and employed from this same tool. I couldn't find the correct intake off the shelf, and hence I created my own. Others would likely make quick work of this for employment of 3D printing technology, but alas, this was all I could do in the moment. ...and while a little constricted and limiting for unwanted structure looking further in, this is the trunk taking shape. A Firestone fuel cell was fitted with a pair of Holley fuel pumps mounted low and at the forward corners of the cell positioned largely out of sight here. In period photos mysterious housings are seen beneath the car in this general vicinity, while it was neat to discover what these surrounded for making an inspection of things. I took photos of everything and created said pockets/housings, although all that was done isn't strictly discernible here. Some material was cut away from the trunk floor to accommodate shock absorber service from the top, although at present I'm not sure I add such. Continuing then, dependent on the venue run, the fuel inlet could be shifted to either side of the car. With this in mind, a plug is always witnessed on the opposite side. And lastly, for paint removal I've tried to replicate Tempest taillights versus GTO units, while the vent system that otherwise takes up the space between what trim is/was retained won't be fun to do for I'm going to have to drill and file out what material is seen to proceed any further. Thanks for reviewing this update... Mike K./Swede70

Greetings Dr. Larry, I don't know if you discovered this, but for searching the Petersen Publishing/SEMA archives yet again, I stumbled upon much more than the two race photos seen before. The cataloging in this instance was better, hence try some combination of '1973 Pontiac Grand Am Grand (including such twice wouldn't be necessary) National Car' or try 'The Bill France Collection', although the latter search terms would likely involve a slog for what is likely a great many photos. No 'Herb Adams' reference, no 'Winston Cup' reference - but oodles of detailed b& w pictures of both the interior and how the car appeared under hood. Check out the O.E.M. steering wheel in particular! Needless to say, I was surprised and I sincerely hope you'll either know all about it and/or will discover this terrific spread of images thus. Good luck! Mike K./Swede70

Thanks Harry - these are an unexpected thrill to see... I appears he's being afforded his thin fuel ration for what would turn out to be an abbreviated session. At least nothing was damaged! A. B. Shuman both wrote and photographed the well known story that appeared in the September, 1971 issue of Motor Trend titled Ask Herb's Wife If We Can Take Her Car Racing. For a brief run Shuman was allowed to make a quick and measured assessment of the vehicles potential on-track, having been reminded quietly though firmly by Herb Adams that the powerplant constituted the team's "...one good engine". Suitable chastened and yet agreeably curious as to what potential lay within, the journalist ventured out and gathered some impressions. All well and and good - until silence and no power. Had he unintentionally inflicted damage upon the car? Thankfully no - for instead it was revealed that he'd simply and literally run out of gas... The article remains the best period record of the genesis of the effort, including who was involved, technical specifications of the Gray Ghost, etc. Know that I really appreciate the privilege to witness the photographs, while quite a surprise then to warm up the computer and have these waiting. Mike K./Swede70

Very nice - a neat topic surely. Thanks for sharing and hoping here to follow... Mike K./Swede70

Thanks Harry for your careful and considerate fielding of my slate of questions... Indeed - I too have been busy on the new Petersen Publishing/SEMA Archive, although just as readily I could have missed it for not knowing about it. Thanks for your alert and guidance to this terrific resource so recently made available. 'Lime Rock Trans Am 1971' narrows in even further, although I've found that asking a lot more of the database in terms of adding search terms just stops it dead. The clearer image of the Gray Ghost seen underhood was sourced from the PP archives, while how different in quality it is from the so-so reproduction within the pages of the Motor Trend Lime Rock race report from their July 1971 issue! I'd really hoped earlier tonight to find other images that may have accompanied the A. B. Shuman-penned and photographed September 1971 Motor Trend article, although in sum I failed to. 'Shuman 1971' brought forth a wide range of motor racing event images, alas nothing at all in relation to the aforementioned feature. Still learning then, and hoping other approaches will turn up what's presently hidden... I've attached an image of the interior panel(s) on the car pre-restoration, this confirming your memory of what was. Sort of frightening to behold - hence glance quick! Of course, maybe I'm just seeing paint loss on what would be the surrounding metal work less the vinyl trim positioned further below? My disc drive is spinning madly, reading if you will what I burned onto one a few years back. Happily much is there that I couldn't strictly remember capturing. O.K. see: Thanks too for the art/description placard of the car when it's currently displayed. It's looks nice indeed, and kind of you to share and attach the same. Just in passing, I too was contacted by M.M. 'Mike' Matune in relation to the article for my brief visit to Brighton that day to capture photos, although in truth all I could offer up was good will for I could lend but little value to the cause. While somewhat close to Waterford Hills Road Racing, it would be a stretch to suggest I'm well connected in relation to the history of the track, etc. In sum, it was impressive what Matune stitched together and I was happy just to be afforded an oblique view of the creative process. Hopefully more to come. Again, my thanks... Mike K./Swede70

A few 1:18th project photos to share - if the system will cooperate and allow such... ...note the scratch built Lakewood explosive proof bell housing, as well as the odd and severely abbreviated sump. I'm not sure if I'll make up Ram Air IV heads consistent with matching the oval exhaust port detail otherwise desired. ...seen is a scratch built seat, the insulation along the floor, an aluminum bulkhead looking back, as well as what I believe to be shoulder harness pick up points on the parcel shelf. ...tedious, but note the aluminum dash overlay with the flag motif created for first taping out and then scrubbing each element in an alternating direction with a pencil eraser. M.K./Swede70