Who came up with the 1:20 scale kits and why?!

[Dave Van]

4 minutes ago, Art Anderson said:

Actually, 1/25 scale came about here in the US due to the ease of scaling down:  1" in 1/25 scale is exactly .040". which incidently is within the split whisker of a gnat as well.  It's also a fairly common (or was) engineering and architectural scale.

Art

I can see that too......but is it not true it came from the 2.5 scaling down of 1/10 scale wood bucks??? I own some of these wood bucks and that is what I was always told by those in the model company that gave them to me. 

[Art Anderson]

3 minutes ago, Dave Van said:

I can see that too......but is it not true it came from the 2.5 scaling down of 1/10 scale wood bucks??? I own some of these wood bucks and that is what I was always told by those in the model company that gave them to me. 

True, but also consider that the toolmakers of those days used a 3-dimensional pantograph (3 axis) which could be adjusted to reduce the size of the tooling cavities to whatever final scale that was wanted.  Today, of course, it's even easier, as tooling mockups for model car kits are almost always done to the same scale as the production model kit will be (certainly if 1/25, as 1mm is very minutely smaller than .040", so minute as to be pretty much invisible to the naked eye for the vast majority of us).

The reason for model companies having used tooling mockups that were many times larger than the scale of the finished kit was pretty simple:  Until the advent of computer-aided design and machining CAD/CAM, and certainly the advent of 3D printing, all model kit mastering was carved and/or shaped by hand, out of wood by master pattern-makers, and some parts, notably wheels and tires were mastered in the same larger scale by machining.  It just happened that if one were mastering a model to be produced in 1/25 scale, such hand-carved and machined mastering was far easier if a simple multiple of the desired scale model kit was used.  The same principle applied to such as 1/24, 1/18, 1/20 and so on and so forth.

[Mark]

Another thing to consider: packaging.  A 1/20 scale car kit will require a slightly larger box than a 1/24 or 1/25 scale kit of the same car.  Those boxes will take up just a bit more space on the store shelf, literally crowding out other companies' stuff.  They couldn't just stick the 1/25 scale kit into the larger box, because it would cost more to ship and would have to sell for more than the competition. 

The fact that you, the end user, might prefer 1/25 didn't really matter, as MPC wasn't selling them to you, but rather to the person in charge of buying toy/hobby items for K-Mart or Monkey Ward.  Sure, 1/20 scale might not have sold in the numbers that 1/25 did.  But in those days, they were selling enough of them to keep those 1/20 scale kit tools set up on production lines.  And, they sold for more ($3 vs. $2 for most 1/25 scale kits) so there was more profit on each carton of kits that left the factory.  Yes, they used more plastic to make the larger kit, but in those days the cost difference was minimal.  Many books and articles on model kits make mention of other things in a kit (like decals, or even boxes) that surpassed the cost of the plastic used in manufacturing a kit.   

[Greg Myers]

1 hour ago, vamach1 said:

Certainly strange MPC made  a 1/20 427 Cobra and it took quite a long time for Revell/Monogram to come out with one in 1/24.

The MPC 427 Cobra is 1/16th scale 

[Greg Myers]

1 hour ago, vamach1 said:

Certainly strange MPC made  a 1/20 427 Cobra and it took quite a long time for Revell/Monogram to come out with one in 1/24.

The MPC 427 Cobra is 1/16th scale 

[Greg Myers]

My gripe is with the BIG engine kits by Liberty, Revell, Hawk and Lindberg. 

1/6th scale, what gives ?

Too big to fit in any of the large scale kit around, Big Tee, Big Deuce, or anything else.

Then getting on board with the 1/6th scale engines anyway and they jump to 1/4th scale. 

I was really looking forward to the HEMI A990 drag version, nope, 1/4th scale. And their clear HEMI, yep, 1/4th as well.

[vamach1]

9 minutes ago, Greg Myers said:

The MPC 427 Cobra is 1/16th scale 

My bad.   Still strange though.

[Tom Geiger]

14 hours ago, pack rat said:

I believe George Toteff was the major proponent of 1/20 scale, first when he formed MPC in the '60's, and later when he ran Craft House (Lindberg), when the Nissan pickup and a few others were created.  

 

I remember back when those Lindberg 1/20 kits came out, the hobby gave a collective,  "WHY?!"   Lindberg sent a lot of those out to model shows as door prizes.  They were tough to even give away!

[peteski]

I learned a lot here - thanks guys!  And I totally spaced out on all the 1:20 F1 kits (I even own few myself).  I still wish that instead of having 3 scales fairly close to each other in the twenties (1:20, 1:24 and 1:25) all the manufacturers just picked one of those and never made models in the other 2 scales.

[highway]

16 hours ago, Mike999 said:

That's what I always heard too. Too bad. MPC and Lindberg both made some 1/20 kits I would have bought more than once, if they had been in the "right" scale. 

I often wondered why, after the 1/20 MPC kits didn't sell, he persisted with the idea many years later at Lindberg.  Seems he might have thrown in some decals or accessories to make them "support vehicles" or something for the Japanese 1/20 Formula 1 cars.  As for those, I can sort of understand it. For one thing, 1/25 F1 cars would be tiny and benefit from the larger scale.  For another...well, it's the Japanese.  Who not only march to the sound of their own different drummer, but often have their own parade.

At least in my opinion and all that opinion has to please is me, there is no such thing as a "right" scale! It doesn't matter what scale something is, if it is a subject I like, it's going to find its way to my stash, and in some cases I have versions of the same subject in 2, 3, or even 4 scales! 

Also, F1 cars aren't quite that tiny in 1/24th scale. Of course, yes they are smaller, but not by as much as one would think. These Ferrari F310Bs are a perfect example, the Revell AG kit is 1/24th and the Tamyia on the right is 1/20th. 

4 hours ago, Mark said:

Another thing to consider: packaging.  A 1/20 scale car kit will require a slightly larger box than a 1/24 or 1/25 scale kit of the same car.  Those boxes will take up just a bit more space on the store shelf, literally crowding out other companies' stuff.  They couldn't just stick the 1/25 scale kit into the larger box, because it would cost more to ship and would have to sell for more than the competition. 

 

While the 1/20th scale kits do require a slightly larger box, at least when it comes to the Lindberg 1/20th scale kit boxes compared to Revell's boxes 1/24th and 1/25th scale boxes, there isn't very much of a difference. 

Obviously by the pic, the box for the 1/20th is a little longer in length compared to the boxes next to it, but depth and height it is nearly identical to the Revell boxes. Also in the pic above with the F1 cars, it's quite ironic that the Tamyia 1/20th scale box is quite a bit smaller than the one for the 1/24th scale version of the same car! 

[Art Anderson]

Deleted

Edited November 30, 2017 by Art Anderson

[Art Anderson]

Just now, Art Anderson said:

Bear in mind, that the "modern Lindberg" company came about when former MPC Founder (and at AMT, the father of the technology of molding model car bodies in 1 piece while holding all the detailing on all sides of those bodies) , bought Lindberg from the estate of it's founder, Paul K. Lindberg, upon Mr. Lindberg's death--one George Toteff.

Art

 

[Daddyfink]

Is it strange that I have never owned this kit? When it seems that just about everyone was trying to get rid of them. But, I do have the Accurate Miniatures versions.

[Brian Austin]

17 hours ago, Greg Myers said:

My gripe is with the BIG engine kits by Liberty, Revell, Hawk and Lindberg. 

1/6th scale, what gives ?

Too big to fit in any of the large scale kit around, Big Tee, Big Deuce, or anything else.

Then getting on board with the 1/6th scale engines anyway and they jump to 1/4th scale. 

I was really looking forward to the HEMI A990 drag version, nope, 1/4th scale. And their clear HEMI, yep, 1/4th as well.

 

What's your beef with 1/4 scale?  It's a common size for engine models.  You can even get fully-operational fuel-fired model engines in that scale, made of cast or machine metal .  There's been a cottage industry for around 7 to 8 decades of offering raw castings, leaving the machining to final spec to the builder.

Regarding smaller engine scales, there's also the old Parma engine kits, produced in lovely 1:10 scale to match their line of R/C toys.

And what's wrong with 1:6 scale engines?  They'll look fine in the 1:6 scale Barbie/GI Joe or radio control toys.  :-)

[Mike999]

15 hours ago, Tom Geiger said:

I remember back when those Lindberg 1/20 kits came out, the hobby gave a collective,  "WHY?!"   Lindberg sent a lot of those out to model shows as door prizes.  They were tough to even give away!

That's why I made the comment about them not selling.  Though that was just based on my own experiences.  The LHS's in my area discounted those 1/20 Lindberg kits over and over, and they still gathered dust on the shelves.  The same goes for kit swap meets and sales.  At one kit show, I bought a shrink-wrapped 1/20 Baywatch Toyota pickup for $2.00. The decals, flotation devices and a few other parts were worth that.

Meanwhile...I've seen quite a few 1/8 scale musical instruments over the years, including some great NICHIMO electric and acoustic guitars. And everybody has probably seen the ACADEMY/NICHIMO 1/8 scale Ludwig drum set (complete with "The Beatles" decal for the bass drum).  But even in that little niche, scale wasn't consistent.  I saw this on eBay just a few minutes ago:  the NICHIMO Euphonium Tuba in 1/6 scale:

 

[DanR]

Based on the other replies here, I may be wrong, but I could swear that I once read that Tamiya chose 1/20 for their F1 kits only because they felt that 1/24-1/25 was just a bit too small. F1 cars were (and maybe still are) much much smaller than a regular car, so it may just have been an aesthetic choice for Tamiya anyway.

[DanR]

5 hours ago, Daddyfink said:

Is it strange that I have never owned this kit? When it seems that just about everyone was trying to get rid of them. But, I do have the Accurate Miniatures versions.

It's well documented that the AM kits are a nightmare to build. Lots of fit issues.

[Daddyfink]

1 hour ago, DanR said:

It's well documented that the AM kits are a nightmare to build. Lots of fit issues.

The biggest issues with the AM kits are the instruction sheets. Apparently they where printed out  of order and cause real headaches when followed as is. The kits fit together rather well when assembled as intended. 

[DanR]

5 hours ago, Daddyfink said:

The biggest issues with the AM kits are the instruction sheets. Apparently they where printed out  of order and cause real headaches when followed as is. The kits fit together rather well when assembled as intended. 

Interesting. That's good to know since I have three of them!

[Daddyfink]

18 minutes ago, DanR said:

Interesting. That's good to know since I have three of them!

Tom West drew them up and turned them in for printing. Apparently someone there mixed them up and no one caught it until Tom saw the finished product. I think they had a corrected sheet for the kits, but I doubt you could get one now. 

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Daddyfink

[DanR]

1 hour ago, Daddyfink said:

Tom West drew them up and turned them in for printing. Apparently someone there mixed them up and no one caught it until Tom saw the finished product. I think they had a corrected sheet for the kits, but I doubt you could get one now. 

 

No worries. There was also an article in one of the magazines on how to build them and overcome some of the common issues people had.

[ZTony8]

Interesting tidbit- for the 1/20 scale Tamiya Ferrari F189 kit someone in Japan goofed and the engine is 1/24 scale. OOPS!

[Motor City]

This is an interesting thread.  Arcade, a cast iron toy manufacturer out of Chicago, made a number of cars in the 1920s in 1/20th scale.  National Products, which also was out of Chicago, started making promos in 1934 (Studebaker, Chrysler and DeSoto Airflows, Hudson, and Graham sedans.  The scale they used, which I think is around 1/28th, is ideal in that you can display more models per shelf, and the detail is pretty good!  I got rid of the few 1/24th models I had, and then realized the subject of the model was more important than the scale.  I started buying them up again.  The variety of scales makes it interesting.  For example, you could display a collection of Packard models of all scales on a shelf.  Or you could display all models of one scale on a shelf, and a different scale on another shelf.            

[Brian Austin]

There were some lovely large scale promo models made of the "Step Down" Hudsons, and apparently they were manufactured by the auto manufacturer themselves, then the tooling was sold to Louis Marx toy co. to be made as toys.  Some variations can be seen at the collection of Hudson automobiles in Shepshewana, Indiana.  In the picture you can see the red and the green Marx toys along with the older promos with their front clips removed.

 

 

 

 

 

[zenrat]

Why 1/35 for military models but 1/32 for aircraft?