Desktop Manufacturing, Part 1: 3D Printing

[Ace-Garageguy]

                                                                                                ^^^

On another thread, I mentioned that a vendor I met at the November show here was showing some exquisite 3D-printed prototype wire wheels, and these are them. Now that the cat's entirely out of the bag, all I can say is that they are SO good, they're almost beyond belief. They look far better to me than any PE-center wire wheels, and much better than most of the hand-laced wires as well. The detail is fantastic. Notice that the individual spokes have the appropriate bend at the hub end, and include a tensioning nut at the rim end. And also remember the image you're seeing here (if you're on a PC) is far larger than these are in reality.

As soon as these are available, I'll be loading up.  

[martinfan5]

On 12/11/2018 at 6:30 AM, mikemodeler said:

This is the future of our hobby. While kit manufacturers will still crank out kits, I can see where individuals or small companies will develop items to enhance or change what the model companies offer us. Think about the recent 4x4 conversion from Fireball, if you would have told me I would spend $30 on a kit and another $30 on a conversion, I would have told you Heck NO! But here I am, with three conversion kits!

Thanks for sharing, excellent video and very interesting.

Its going to be no different than it has been , just the medium in which things are done are going to be different( if you are not sure, I am in full agreement with your post Mike)

[Mike 1017]

One day Revell is gonna start selling quality US built 3D printers for the home.

Download a Revell a 1958 Cadillac file with a bunch of options. Chop the roof, put in a Hemi, delete all the side trim, and so on and so on. One could certainly build a lot cars from one file.

MY RANT.

NO more Chinese million $ injection machines, tooling, factories, and warehouses. Just gonna have a R&D center proudly  flying the US flag and a staff of Americans.

Mike  

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Mike 1017
wrong word

[Pico]

I saw Randy's 3d printed wheels at our Southern NNL and it's the best printed item I've ever seen.

[bobthehobbyguy]

Bill thanks for reposting this valuable information.   The future is promising.

[landman]

On 12/11/2018 at 11:22 PM, djflyer said:

My opinion has been 3D printing will be/can be a huge plus for the hobby.  Parts that cant be produced accurately in regular IM kits can be obtained through specialist suppliers.  Specific trim items that were never kitted, and likely never will be, can be produced. Entire car bodies can be done for almost any subject.  The capability of offering the same item in almost any scale is also a big plus.

But..there is already a fly in the ointment.  Apparently Shapeways - the biggest current producer - is not happy with handling all the tiny little pieces that modelers want. They (supposedly) have big price increases or limits coming on how small a single item can be. 3D Model Specialties, one of the biggest vendors there with over 1100 pieces, had plans to shut down or cut back his site as it exists.  Negotiations are on going so we'll see what happens.

That would be sad, I'm in there all the time.

[peteski]

On 12/12/2018 at 10:26 AM, my66s55 said:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=45736.0 Read the 3rd from the bottom post by Chris333. This is the reality of this printer. Absolute bottom of the barrel.  There cheap because they use cheap parts. The z axis is poor. The led is of such low intensity that it causes print time to almost double in some cases.

The lcd panel is a consumable. It deteriorates over usage time. Life expectancy is less than 800 hours. You might think this is a long time until you see how long it takes to print one of these parts. Guess who gets to replace it, as in remove the old and install the new. It uses a single led for it's light source instead of an array. If you look at the light from a flash light, it's strong in the center and fades out from that point. That means that the 120 mm by 68 mm is dissipated by as mush as half. If you purchase one of these printers, use it as a learning tool and than buy a decent one.

That thread has multiple pages - you really need to go few pages further to see some pretty incredible printouts (coming from a low end machine). The first guy who started that thread had no problems with the machine.  I'm still amazed that even with a cheap machine like that (and I would not mind tinkering with it to keep in going) you can get some pretty good quality parts. Design something during the day, feed the data to the printer and it "prints" your part overnight. Hard to beat that (especially with Shapeways pricing structure getting really crazy).

In the early days of 3D printers, they used to be called "Santa Claus machines" - a name that I think was very fitting.

One of the machine owners in that thread sent me a sampling of failed printouts and I'm very impressed with what I see (the correctly printed areas).    Sure, for thousands of dollars you can get a "real" 3D printer, but most hobbyists cannot afford that.

[Richard Bartrop]

47 minutes ago, peteski said:

One of the machine owners in that thread sent me a sampling of failed printouts and I'm very impressed with what I see (the correctly printed areas).    Sure, for thousands of dollars you can get a "real" 3D printer, but most hobbyists cannot afford that.

Just because you can't afford to own something, it doesn't necessarily mean you can't afford to use it.   I have a cheap little inkjet i use to print ou the occasional coupon, but when I want to print out artwork, I go down the street to a print shop and toss a couple of dollars at them to use their very nice, and very expensive professional grade printer.  There are probably already some 3D print services in your area.

[peteski]

3 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

Just because you can't afford to own something, it doesn't necessarily mean you can't afford to use it.   I have a cheap little inkjet i use to print ou the occasional coupon, but when I want to print out artwork, I go down the street to a print shop and toss a couple of dollars at them to use their very nice, and very expensive professional grade printer.  There are probably already some 3D print services in your area.

That was what Shapeways was offering. But I still rather have all the pieces of the puzzle at home.  That way I can experiment without leaving home.  Going by the results I'm seeing in that Railwire thread I mentioned earlier, the results are pretty spectacular, and you don't have to leave your house.  And if course this technology is progressing very fast - who knows what will be available in a year or two . . .

[Richard Bartrop]

Perfectly understandable, and yes, they're getting better all the time.   It wasn't that long ago those UV printers were in the "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" category.  It'll be interesting to see  how soon the ones that print metal start coming down in price.  I'm just saying that even if you don't have the scratch for the high end ones, you still have options. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Richard Bartrop

[peteski]

Yes, thanks. But I also think that any of the local walk-up 3D printing services will likely not have any high end printers, but probably the ever popular low-res filament printers. Besides my model RR buddies can print parts for me.  I rather pay them few bucks than go to Shapeways.

[MrObsessive]

On 12/15/2018 at 10:57 AM, Mike 1017 said:

One day Revell is gonna start selling quality US built 3D printers for the home.

Download a Revell a 1958 Cadillac file with a bunch of options. Chop the roof, put in a Hemi, delete all the side trim, and so on and so on. One could certainly build a lot cars from one file.

MY RANT.

NO more Chinese million $ injection machines, tooling, factories, and warehouses. Just gonna have a R&D center proudly  flying the US flag and a staff of Americans.

Mike 

I can actually see this taking place within the next 5-10 years. Revell could simply offer the printer and .stl files for whatever they want for a price. The sky's the limit on what can be done with that. You'll still have your aftermarket folks offer chrome plating and whatnot. Or who knows..........we might be able to do that on our own someday.

[my66s55]

6 hours ago, peteski said:

Sure, for thousands of dollars you can get a "real" 3D printer, but most hobbyists cannot afford that.

Thousands of dollars, not really. $799 shipped to your door for more than twice the quality. The photon prints at 20um per hour, the Frozen Shuffleat 30. Plus it has a quality z axis, led array and much more. https://ultimate3dprintingstore.com/products/phrozen-shuffle-resin-3d-printer?variant=12216671338599

[peteski]

Good info, thanks Doug. I'm not ready to jump into 3D printing yet, but the more info I have, the better decisions I'll be able to make if and when I'm ready.

Edited December 19, 2018 by peteski

[Flat32]

I've been printing for a few years now with a variety of printers and learned enough to understand their differences, limitations and what it takes to make good prints.  I started out by learning how to make files using a CAD program and uploading them to Shapeways for printing. Was impressed by the results, but not so much the cost, the lack of control I had and their generic limitations on the model's design.  I wanted the detail and accuracy only resin printing could do and bought a polyjet machine just like what Shapeways was using. Sophisticated machine requiring specialized care and maintenance, uses expensive proprietary resin and has about a 15% resin waste factor. Then bought an Ultimaker 2 filament printer and fell in love with it because I could see what it was doing and found it fascinating to watch, however, I got to watch it make failed prints as well as good ones. Whole different ballgame, had to learn about supports, model orientation and build plate calibration and adhesion to name the most basic stuff. Melting, feeding, depositing and cooling plastic gets involved.

Then I bought a Formlabs2 SLA printer, yet another ballgame, but very good results once you get very familiar with how important supports are and how absolutely critical build plate adhesion is. Resin printing can be messy even when you're careful.

Then bought a Solus DLP printer that jewelry makers favor for the very fine detail it can do. My acid test is printing Stromberg 97 carbs with linkage at 1/25 scale.  Hoping someday to be able to see screw slots and sharp corners on hex nuts, but just not possible yet. The DLP process is quite simple and may be the simplest ever. The Solus uses a somewhat expensive digital projector.

Now the Photon and Phrozen DLP printers show up using an LCD screen as a mask and simple UV LEDs for light instead of a projector at half the cost. So I bought a Photon to see what it can do and what it's failings might be.  I fully expect it to do as well as the expensive Solus.

I have the benefit of experience and I will suggest any newcomer to 3D printing first research the build plate problems and cures. I would suggest DLP printing as best suited for fine detail model work and further suggest that you download a slicer program and become at least a little familiar with preparing a model file for the printer before even buying a printer. Having a leg up in these two areas can increase your chances of success tenfold and hopefully avoid the frustration of failed prints with no understanding of why and what to do.

Google anything and everything.

Just my humble opinion.

[Anglia105E]

Good advice Raymond thanks...... I shall have a look at the Phrozen DLP printer, and also the Photon before parting with my hard earned cash! Just like you started out, I learned how to use FreeCAD software which I found quite good actually, although I had nothing to compare it to, if I am honest. Then I uploaded my files to Shapeways and I was very pleased with their service and also the results. Even the cost surprised me, which was much less than I had expected. They are excellent people to deal with, because I was making a few mistakes with the early files and they not only corrected some of them for me, but also advised me how to correct others for myself. So far I have only designed one product and had the item printed by Shapeways, which is a 1:24 scale Rolls-Royce 6-cylinder engine. Recently I do keep thinking that I would really like to do my own 3D printing, providing the cost is not too scary. My dream would be to 3D print a 1:24 scale Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud body shell but of course I do realise that this is way too ambitious at this early stage! During the past couple of years I have successfully moulded and resin cast such a body shell, which was my first attempt at producing a two-part mould and I was happy with the result. I have seen body shells 3D printed by other members on these forums and I can appreciate how complex the process is.

David

[BigTallDad]

On 12/13/2018 at 9:49 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

                                                                                                ^^^

On another thread, I mentioned that a vendor I met at the November show here was showing some exquisite 3D-printed prototype wire wheels, and these are them. Now that the cat's entirely out of the bag, all I can say is that they are SO good, they're almost beyond belief. They look far better to me than any PE-center wire wheels, and much better than most of the hand-laced wires as well. The detail is fantastic. Notice that the individual spokes have the appropriate bend at the hub end, and include a tensioning nut at the rim end. And also remember the image you're seeing here (if you're on a PC) is far larger than these are in reality.

As soon as these are available, I'll be loading up.  

Out of curiosity, are those awesome wheels printed in two different colors or have they been painted?

[my66s55]

Good info from Raymond. A member of this board messaged me earlier this year and asked me about the Photon and the Wanhoa D7. The advice I gave him was to go to the Facebook pages for  the printers and read the posts. Phrozen has 2. The info you get from these Facebook pages is informative about the printers, how to print and problems and how to fix them. 

[my66s55]

5 hours ago, Anglia105E said:

Good advice Raymond thanks...... I shall have a look at the Phrozen DLP printer, and also the Photon before parting with my hard earned cash! Just like you started out, I learned how to use FreeCAD software which I found quite good actually, although I had nothing to compare it to, if I am honest. Then I uploaded my files to Shapeways and I was very pleased with their service and also the results. Even the cost surprised me, which was much less than I had expected. They are excellent people to deal with, because I was making a few mistakes with the early files and they not only corrected some of them for me, but also advised me how to correct others for myself. So far I have only designed one product and had the item printed by Shapeways, which is a 1:24 scale Rolls-Royce 6-cylinder engine. Recently I do keep thinking that I would really like to do my own 3D printing, providing the cost is not too scary. My dream would be to 3D print a 1:24 scale Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud body shell but of course I do realise that this is way too ambitious at this early stage! During the past couple of years I have successfully moulded and resin cast such a body shell, which was my first attempt at producing a two-part mould and I was happy with the result. I have seen body shells 3D printed by other members on these forums and I can appreciate how complex the process is.

David

David, if you contact Stuart Radmore of Print 3d Resin in London, he can help you with advise and info. He is a re seller of printers and resin in England. A nice guy and very helpful. He sells both printers.

Edited December 19, 2018 by my66s55

[Anglia105E]

Many thanks for the contact Doug..... and I will certainly follow up your advice.

David

[BigTallDad]

OK, let me re-phrase my question. Can a 3D printer print more than one color at the same time (such as steel rims and gold spokes, as shown above)?

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 minutes ago, BigTallDad said:

OK, let me re-phrase my question. Can a 3D printer print more than one color at the same time (such as steel rims and gold spokes, as shown above)?

The answer is...it depends. Some filament printers can indeed print with multiple colors, even with multiple materials.

The goo+UV-printed wire wheels shown above? I honestly don't know what the deal is there. The prototypes I saw in person were black. Everything black.

With the process shown in the video that accompanies this thread, I don't really see how multiple colors could be achieved (but I'm very far from being anything like an "expert" on this tech).

[Randy D]

Ray (BigTallDad),  Sorry for the late response !   The rim pictured above is raw, just as it comes out of the printer. It was printed with a translucent  greenish yellow resin. The thicker parts such as the wheel rim are much darker than the spokes. 

I believe Bill is correct concerning liquid resin printers but the technology is changing so fast who knows ???

Ray (Flat32) and Doug,  thanks to both you guys for the info as actual users of the next step up in printers,  great stuff !!!

Randy

[GlueTube]

Great info guys! Just my observation that buying the printer and turning it on is the easy part. One MUST NOT underestimate the time it takes to learn how produce 3D files with CAD software. Just learning to drawing wheel in scale is difficult enough, but learning the ins and outs of making a good print, well that's an art in itself. (don't ask me how I know) Perhaps the future lies in fellows that will produce down loadable files to which the modeler will select and print himself.

Given that most have jobs and build models for relaxation....well I just cant see the average modeller investing hundreds of hours into perfecting 3d Modelling with cad software so he can generate a few parts.

Pros who are running a business …..YES! 

The average modeler that frequents this board, I just cant see it.

Warm Regards

Brian Kroon

[Tom Geiger]

26 minutes ago, GlueTube said:

Given that most have jobs and build models for relaxation....well I just cant see the average modeler investing hundreds of hours into perfecting 3d Modelling with cad software so he can generate a few parts.

I've always said that this is a skill set that is earned with hard work.   Back when everyone ran out and bought lathes, many guys just made a bunch of metal shavings and gave up. This is the same thing. The early adapters are people who do 3D CAD for a living, so it's natural for them to expand to their hobby.  There will be guys who buy a cheap printer, lose patience and put them aside.   

I am impressed with the results in the video.   There is a future in 3D printing for modelers.  Many of us will be the customers of those with the skills, just like we buy resin and photo etch today.