Umm Ford,What's going on?

[NYLIBUD]

33 minutes ago, 1930fordpickup said:

Don't tell people but SUV's / crossovers are just a station wagon anyway. Still cracks me up when someone replaces a name and we humans fall for it. 

The biggest  reason people love the crossovers and suvs is they are easy to get in and out of and you can see better.

Exactly,these suvs or cross overs,or whatever u call them are not a new idea.Cause back in the day,Station wagons started the whole idea of family traveling across the US.At least it was for me when I was a kid.We usually stayed in the way back facing backwards,surrounded by glass,with no seatbelts.First family station wagon was an AMC Ambassador with some fake wood grain,and a 390.Great car.

[1972coronet]

GM , in my opinion , would've been better off IF they would've made the Holden/Caprice available to the public ! When are the manufacturers going to get it through their close-minded-think-tank-focus-group-college-boy heads that AMERICANS DON'T WANT FRONT-WHEEL-DRIVE LITTER BOXES !!! One of GM's worst moves was the dumping of the B-Body , U.S.-built , U.S.-market Caprice ! They had 'em so dialed-in by 1993 -- and esp. in that final year -- and then POOF ! 

As far as Fo-Mo-Co is concerned ; enough with the self-parking-hybrid-plug-in-wrong-wheel-drive garbage ! Their moment of stupidity was when they announced the dumping of the Crown Victoria ! What was its "replacement" ? Another car with its engine facing the wrong way or a frickin' SUV with some ridiculous V6 ! WOW ! 

Chrysler ? A shadow of its former self . More junky bird cage lining vehicles ! The Neon / PT were okay , but a major pain to service --- how about them there passenger-side engine mounts ? Replace 'em with more trash that's made by yet another off-shore company ( you can smell the Pb in the paint ! ) . It's too bad that their LX-Body "A38" (or whatever its new sales code is) Police Pursuit was so cramped . On the contrary ; the CHP is seemingly dumping their fleet of "Eco-Boost" Explorers and are replacing them with...

...Charger Police Pursuit cars ! 

Civet Scat Coffee and Penny Farthings indeed ! Hahahahaha !

[Joe Handley]

Sorry, double post.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Joe Handley
DOuble post

[Joe Handley]

4 hours ago, 1930fordpickup said:

Don't tell people but SUV's / crossovers are just a station wagon anyway. Still cracks me up when someone replaces a name and we humans fall for it. 

The biggest  reason people love the crossovers and suvs is they are easy to get in and out of and you can see better.

Yup, that Journey I had from the dealer last week was just a tall, chubby, wagon version of my 200 with AWD. Other than being a little dead of the line (not sure if that was drivetrain weight, vehicle weight, some sort of programmed in lag with the throttle, torque management when compared to my 200.

 

Oh, just spotted this, dropped a bit, just like I thought the trucklette felt like could use!

vs Stock

[peteski]

In the area I live in (Northeast Mass.), most cop cars (local and state) are SUVs (crossovers maybe).  In New Hampshire state police still uses sedans (Dodge or Chrysler).  Some towns also have few sedans left.

[Ensis Ferrae]

13 hours ago, 1972coronet said:

GM , in my opinion , would've been better off IF they would've made the Holden/Caprice available to the public ! When are the manufacturers going to get it through their close-minded-think-tank-focus-group-college-boy heads that AMERICANS DON'T WANT FRONT-WHEEL-DRIVE LITTER BOXES !!! One of GM's worst moves was the dumping of the B-Body , U.S.-built , U.S.-market Caprice ! They had 'em so dialed-in by 1993 -- and esp. in that final year -- and then POOF !

 

 

Honestly, I'd rather that IF GM were to bring a Holden over to the US for production, it should be the Holden Maloo. . . I cannot begin to describe how often I've been on various automotive forums and people are wanting one of these. Or, at the very least, a proper replacement for the El Camino/Ranchero.

[Rob Hall]

3 hours ago, Ensis Ferrae said:

 

 

Honestly, I'd rather that IF GM were to bring a Holden over to the US for production, it should be the Holden Maloo. . . I cannot begin to describe how often I've been on various automotive forums and people are wanting one of these. Or, at the very least, a proper replacement for the El Camino/Ranchero.

Too late, the RWD Holden Commodore, Statesman, Ute and it's variations are gone now.  Holden now is just Chevy, GMC, and Opel rebadges..

[High octane]

20 hours ago, NYLIBUD said:

Exactly,these suvs or cross overs,or whatever u call them are not a new idea.Cause back in the day,Station wagons started the whole idea of family traveling across the US.At least it was for me when I was a kid.We usually stayed in the way back facing backwards,surrounded by glass,with no seatbelts.First family station wagon was an AMC Ambassador with some fake wood grain,and a 390.Great car.

Yes back in the 50's and 60's my uncle always owned station wagons to deliver counter tops to customers as that was his business, and also to haul his boats.

[espo]

No one seems very happy about the "Big 3's" ideas for future products. I think they are betting on buyers that don't know or care which set of wheels are driving the car or which way the engine is pointed. Now for any type of real enthusiast it is quickly becoming slim pickings if you can even afford what they want for a new car today. I'm at a point where I'm going to have to either invest some money in our '10 Charger RT with AWD or spend over $40k for the type of Charger or Challenger I would want to drive and I will have to give up the AWD which does come in handy once in a while around here. I would really like to have the AWD feature in the future and the only way they will build on is if I take the 6 cylinder and that may work for the average guy it is really down on power in that heavy a rig. They still build this same car for Law Enforcement only and since they beat these things to death I don't think they are having any warranty issues with the general public. In 2010 this rig cost just over $30k with all the bells and whistles. That will not even get you into a basic Charger today with a 6 and AWD with little more than Air and the standard Radio. So do I spend a few grand and go through the Transmission, do brakes, new Tires and Shocks all the way around. That's where I'm at on the Automotive journey in life. I may just buy a PD Dodge Charger and then redo the interior.     

[Rob Hall]

From what I've read, part of the reason for Ford, GM and FCA are dropping various car lines is slumping sales of conventional sedans...part of a bigger trend--sedan sales are down across the board for most brands, import and domestic.  Meanwhile, CUV, SUV and truck sales are strong and growing for all 3 companies.

To replace my current Jeep Grand Cherokee with a comparably equipped new one would be in the $45k range, which is why I bought a certified pre-owned '14 w/ 25k miles in 2017 for under $30k to replace my tired '00 GC that had 170k miles.  Very little difference between a '14 and '19 GC other than the front fascia, headlights and wheel options...I figure I'll drive the '14 until it gets to 100k and look for another low mileage CPO then.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Rob Hall

[Joe Handley]

1 hour ago, Rob Hall said:

From what I've read, part of the reason for Ford, GM and FCA are dropping various car lines is slumping sales of conventional sedans...part of a bigger trend--sedan sales are down across the board for most brands, import and domestic.  Meanwhile, CUV, SUV and truck sales are strong and growing for all 3 companies.

People seem to keep missing out on what Rob is talking about here, it's not just that Detroit is abandoning sedans and small cars due to their's "not being competitive", Sedans just aren't selling in the numbers that had been, even the Camry and Accord are seeing their sales dropping off and things are even worse for 2drs.

[OldTrucker]

All one has to do is look at how the cars (I use that term loosely as most seem to more truck like) are marketed these days!

Very few use "family" as the selling point and instead show some well dressed man or woman putting the car through it's paces on an open stretch of road with no other traffic! (what a fantasy sequence!)

I love going to you tube and watching the old car ads of people shopping for the "family" car!

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Joe Handley said:

... Sedans just aren't selling in the numbers that had been, even the Camry and Accord are seeing their sales dropping off and things are even worse for 2drs.

I've mentioned this, and I sincerely believe that a large part of what we're seeing is the result of a long-in-coming and gradual switch from driving being at least somewhat about DRIVING to it being about transportation appliances that get people and their stuff somewhere, in the greatest comfort, with the least effort, and with as many non-driving-oriented accessories and capabilities that a manufacturer can cram into a vehicle.

We've already seen that only around 18% of US drivers today can operate a manual gearbox. That's an indicator that the physical involvement with the machine and the driving experience in general is waning. The whole approach to owning and using a vehicle is different than it was just 20 years back.

The concept of "handling" has also been taking a beating, even in the enthusiast press. Where high lateral-acceleration numbers and crisp transient response used to be the main defining elements of "handling", it now seems that these concepts are relatively unknown, and rarely cited as incentives to buy a particular vehicle.

High center-of-gravity SUVs and crossovers, though perceived as "safer" than cars by many, sacrifice two of the primary accident avoidance capabilities a vehicle can have...namely the above-mentioned high lateral-acceleration numbers and crisp transient response.

Cars, by nature and the laws of physics, are just better at those things...but they're not what anybody cares about.

How easy a vehicle is to enter and exit, how many "cargo configurations" are available, what its crash ratings are and how much "connectivity" it offers, heated seats, cup-holders, etc. have taken precedence over how much fun it is to drive.

But make no mistake. People buy what's marketed to them most effectively, and what their friends and various media sources and online communities tell them to buy. Consumers in general know NOTHING about how a car operates, or what's stupid design, or what's logical and efficient. And they don't care. That's why marketing works. For anything.

I assure you, had little fun-to-drive gas-sipping econoboxes been marketed as heavily as road-crushing SUVs, pickups, and "crossovers", we'd see an entirely different American automotive landscape. But higher profit margins were available on loaded pickups and generally larger vehicles, so THOSE were the ones that got pushed.

And I freely admit that if the DRIVING experience isn't particularly important to you, and if you can only have one vehicle, a light SUV or crossover makes a lot of sense.

But at this point in time, I just don't care. Far as I'm concerned, there's almost nothing new that lights my jets. But there are still a whole lot of older, interesting, highly competent and FUN vehicles out there, just waiting. And because I'm not dependent on anyone else to maintain my old vehicles, I'm kinda like a kid in a candy store, having my cake and eating it too, if you will. I can have a ball DRIVING while most everyone else cruises around in their mobile living rooms that tell them where to go and park themselves when they get there, oblivious to their surroundings and the machines they occupy.

That's just fine by me.   

(I know...TLDNR)

 

Edited January 1, 2019 by Ace-Garageguy

[NYLIBUD]

Cars are America,its that simple.I'm a fan of most cars,but a much bigger fan of older cars.

[High octane]

45 minutes ago, NYLIBUD said:

Cars are America,its that simple.I'm a fan of most cars,but a much bigger fan of older cars.

With all the Asian cars being sold here for many years cars are not America and haven't been for many years. They are merely transportation as they'll never be America like they were in the 50's & 60's, plain and simple.

[peteski]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

High center-of-gravity SUVs and crossovers, though perceived as "safer" than cars by many, sacrifice two of the primary accident avoidance capabilities a vehicle can have...namely the above-mentioned high lateral-acceleration numbers and crisp transient response.

Bill, you made me laugh.  As things are today, having a great handling car will not help in avoiding accidents when the driver is not paying attention to the road anyway, because he/she is staring at the smart phone they are holding against their steering wheel.  These are sad times we live in.  Besides, with the automatic braking and line change avoidance, the car is super-safe anyway.

I also find it extremely amusing and silly (and sad) with all the Bluetooth-equipped cars people own (which is pretty much standard equipment in today's cars) I still see lots of drivers talking on  their smart phone held to their ear.  Use the hands-free capability dammit!

I think there is a large part of the driving population out there which just can't wait for self-driving cars.

Edited January 1, 2019 by peteski

[Ace-Garageguy]

45 minutes ago, peteski said:

...I think there is a large part of the driving population out there which just can't wait for self-driving cars.

Which is something I do not and probably will not ever understand. ANYONE who's ever been involved with computers or any kind of complex electrical or mechanical systems knows that complex systems do not ALWAYS function as foreseen, and that unexpected failures in modes not predicted are common.

Today's onboard electronic systems are easy to hack into remotely for someone with the right skills (which has been demonstrated repeatedly...but nobody seems to be paying much attention) and the self-drives, no matter how heavily protected by "security" will be vulnerable as well. In addition, they appear (at this time, anyway) extremely vulnerable to relatively unsophisticated means to disable them in multiples. And several exploits against the "internet of things" have shown conclusively how vulnerable to hacking that particular piece of idiocy really is.

There are some very bad people in the world, but there are also those who persist in the delusional notion that everyone everywhere loves puppies and unicorns. I look around, and to some segments of Western society, it's as though 9-11 never happened. So...tell me what makes a more tempting terrorist target than a busy rush-hour interstate segment with a high percentage of driverless vehicles whose sensors and/or communication abilities can be shut down simultaneously. You get a very large steaming pile, in an instant, for a very small investment.

WHY do humans seem to be in such a hurry to give up both their freedoms AND their responsibilities to technology and government, going unthinkingly through life saying lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala, while they look away from the dangers staring them undeniably squarely in the face?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/uber-self-driving-car-fatality-reveals-the-technologys-blind-spots1/

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-42710215

Edited January 1, 2019 by Ace-Garageguy

[NYLIBUD]

46 minutes ago, High octane said:

With all the Asian cars being sold here for many years cars are not America and haven't been for many years. They are merely transportation as they'll never be America like they were in the 50's & 60's, plain and simple.

Yea I agree.I just mean,that as Americans,we grown to love our cars.

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 minutes ago, NYLIBUD said:

Yea I agree.I just mean,that as Americans,we grown to love our cars.

But the American way of life is changing rapidly. Where a car once meant instant mobility to get groceries, a burger, or to go hang out with friends, now the instant-gratification of shopping online, having eats and everything else imaginable delivered to your door, and social interaction becoming more and more virtual than personal...that all means the perceived NEED for a car is declining.

[Flat32]

There's the female influence to consider in the equation in that they are buying and there are men buying what their female likes or wants. How many female modelers are there on this forum BTW? 

[Joe Handley]

2 hours ago, peteski said:

Bill, you made me laugh.  As things are today, having a great handling car will not help in avoiding accidents when the driver is not paying attention to the road anyway, because he/she is staring at the smart phone they are holding against their steering wheel.  These are sad times we live in.  Besides, with the automatic braking and line change avoidance, the car is super-safe anyway.

I also find it extremely amusing and silly (and sad) with all the Bluetooth-equipped cars people own (which is pretty much standard equipment in today's cars) I still see lots of drivers talking on  their smart phone held to their ear.  Use the hands-free capability dammit!

I think there is a large part of the driving population out there which just can't wait for self-driving cars.

I think Pete here has a point, I've seen people pay more attention to their phones while driving and I was pretty sure one was intoxicated until I realized the inside of the car was glowing from the phone, the other was pulling onto I-355 from an entrance ramp and was looking at his phone the whole time.....upon seeing the side of that poor little Kia Soul all wrinkled up and the guy driving looking at his phone, I let the horses run and got away from him as quick as 283 of them would let me! 

As far as the bluetooth thing, those are still optional, my 2012 200 doesn't have it, nor did that 2018 Journey I had last week, even thought it was new and had less than 3000 miles on it and we have a hands-free law.

I know I can't wait for self driving cars

Now before I have to dodge tomatos, hear me out!  Reason I'm looking forward to them is that with the drivers I mentioned above and others who would generally prefer to be doing anything other than driving their car moving into those as they become available and more affordable, then you should have  a car that will be more predictable in it's behavior and more likely to keep right while running on multilane roads and less likely to speed up if you want to pass them on a 2 lane road when it's safe to do so.

[peteski]

10 minutes ago, Joe Handley said:

I know I can't wait for self driving cars

Now before I have to dodge tomatos, hear me out!  Reason I'm looking forward to them is that with the drivers I mentioned above and others who would generally prefer to be doing anything other than driving their car moving into those as they become available and more affordable, then you should have  a car that will be more predictable in it's behavior and more likely to keep right while running on multilane roads and less likely to speed up if you want to pass them on a 2 lane road when it's safe to do so.

Fine, but like Bill said, it will all work semi-ok until some fun-loving hacker (or even some foreign government) hacks the self-driving car infrastructure and creates a pandemonium.  If self-driving cars were self-sufficient and operating as single entities then this would not be a big problem. But in order to have everything work, all the cars will be dependent on an external wireless network.  And we all what happens when there is an "impenetrable" network out there . . .

[slusher]

On December 30, 2018 at 1:53 PM, iamsuperdan said:

Not a surprise to me. 

FCA have exactly one car platform; the Chrysler 300, Dodge Charger, Dodge Challenger. They dumped the rest of their cars a few years ago. They just didn't do a big announcement like Ford did.

Ford is only going to have the Mustang, and a couple of Lincolns. I wonder how long the Lincolns will last though. 

GM is still rocking the car lineup, and will do for the foreseeable future. Chev Camaro, Corvette, a few Buicks, a couple of Cadillacs, all continuing on. But, they have dumped and simplified the lineup, so it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

I think the domestics just can't compete with the imports, either Asian or European. Although domestic cars are better now than they've ever been, they just don't stack up in terms of features, reliability, value, etc. And the garbage that was built a few years ago has given them a reputation for building garbage. I think that's why a car like the Dodge Dart failed. It was a surprisingly good car, dare I say it...a competitor. but people saw it as the new Neon, and thus, it was treated as such. 

 

 

 

GM still going to make the Malibu?

[Luc Janssens]

17 hours ago, Rob Hall said:

Too late, the RWD Holden Commodore, Statesman, Ute and it's variations are gone now.  Holden now is just Chevy, GMC, and Opel rebadges..

IIRC, Holden and Ford stopped car production altogether in Australia, all China, and Korean import now.

[dimaxion]

I will say this . People Buy Imports . Imports will be made . There is another hake up coming soon , Stay tuned , I am . Thanx