3D Printing........Scratch Building or Not?

[carsntrucks4you]

In my opinion is 3D printing also a kind of scratch building. If you did all the 3 D models for your project yourself and print them then I would say it is similar to scratch building. But buying a 3 D printed kit or ready to print 3D models has nothing to do with scratch building. 

 

[Mattilacken]

I would say no on scratch building since its an other thing entirely. And Building 3d files from scratch is a different story than scratch building in my opinion. 

This is a parametric tyre that can be chaged on wheel size, tire width, profile and so on. Good thing wiht 3d prining is that its easy to replicate a part many times which is much harder with traditional building. And i guess thats whats the real scratch builders enjoy, to be able to make say 4 equal carburettors out of flat stock and rods. Which is some thing i cant do well.

 

I am an engineer and work with Mechanical engineering , not "desining". I love scrach building but in some cases i dont have the skill, patience or will t do that way when i can quickly make a new IC and print it instead

Edited November 23, 2023 by Mattilacken

[Brizio]

3 hours ago, Texas_3D_Customs said:

Wait a minute, so scratch building can not be learned, I mean sure if you don't have arms or legs, but CAD takes no natural ability? I agree that scratch building is something that has natural skill, but CAD is no different, I have seen all sorts of "designers" use CAD that makes me cringe. Seems a little belittling to right off 3D modeling so easily as something anyone can do as I can assure you that's not the case.

I doubt you can use CAD without arms and legs...  It could be the same with scratch building, how many people on this forum scratch build a complex object,(with complex object I mean not bend a plastic rod and consider it scratch building). ? Few only, in the last 10 years on this forum I saw only a handful scratch building a car. Why this? Nobody whant to learn how to scratch build? In the other hand I saw more people start to using 3D software and printers. 

[Texas_3D_Customs]

22 hours ago, Brizio said:

I doubt you can use CAD without arms and legs...  It could be the same with scratch building, how many people on this forum scratch build a complex object,(with complex object I mean not bend a plastic rod and consider it scratch building). ? Few only, in the last 10 years on this forum I saw only a handful scratch building a car. Why this? Nobody whant to learn how to scratch build? In the other hand I saw more people start to using 3D software and printers. 

I mean you totally could do CAD without arms and legs I mean Stephen Hawkins can completely talk through a computer they got some complex software now that could let you use your eyes I guess if you had no eyes they could probably attach it to your chin or something but I guess if you had no chin no eyes no arms no legs You probably couldn't use a computer at all

Edited November 24, 2023 by Texas_3D_Customs

[stitchdup]

6 hours ago, Texas_3D_Customs said:

 if you had no chin no eyes no arms no legs You probably couldn't use a computer at all

if they went swimming their name would be Bob

[bobss396]

On 9/24/2023 at 10:11 PM, Tom Geiger said:

Time and technology continue to march on.   Give it 10-20 years and you'll be able to pull a complete scale vehicle off the printer, right down to the correct colors! 😀

Great discussion guys!     

AND the said model will show up at contests as a hologram....

[bobss396]

Aftermarket parts are aftermarket parts. Look at traditional slush-cast resin pieces. Some are really crappy and need a lot of work to look decent. Norm Veber is the polar opposite of that, his stuff is ultra clean and thin. 

Accuracy and appearance are everything to any modeler. So is time. I have a lot of 3D parts in my stash and I use them. Most take little or no clean up time to get ready for paint. I'll take that convenience all day, any day.

Sure there are complete 3D kits, I see them mainly for trucks so far. And some stock cars on Etsy. I have seen the bodies close up at shows. Some require a lot of work to remove the step-over striations. I think that this will improve as techniques and equipment/software get better.

[stitchdup]

16 minutes ago, bobss396 said:

Aftermarket parts are aftermarket parts. Look at traditional slush-cast resin pieces. Some are really crappy and need a lot of work to look decent. Norm Veber is the polar opposite of that, his stuff is ultra clean and thin. 

Accuracy and appearance are everything to any modeler. So is time. I have a lot of 3D parts in my stash and I use them. Most take little or no clean up time to get ready for paint. I'll take that convenience all day, any day.

Sure there are complete 3D kits, I see them mainly for trucks so far. And some stock cars on Etsy. I have seen the bodies close up at shows. Some require a lot of work to remove the step-over striations. I think that this will improve as techniques and equipment/software get better.

I think a lot of the ridged parts sold online just need to be printed with a finer layer count. I've got prints I've bought before i had the printer, and i've bought those files for myself and i get far less ridges than on the prints i've bought. 

[bobss396]

9 minutes ago, stitchdup said:

I think a lot of the ridged parts sold online just need to be printed with a finer layer count. I've got prints I've bought before i had the printer, and i've bought those files for myself and i get far less ridges than on the prints i've bought. 

We did a lot of 3D printing at work in plastic. Mostly prototype sample parts, fit checks and assembly tooling. For the most part we were happy with a 63 or 125 finish. Dimensional accuracy was right there. Even round parts tended to be ROUND. Some of that had to do with how the files were set up for export to the printers. We ran them mostly at night and retrieved the parts in the morning. We had a desktop printer that worked well.

I guess demand will fuel the desire for better surface finishes. Look at what we put up with those thick resin car bodies for years. 

[Big John]

A slight tangent, something about "they'll be doing it 1:1 next.  I was lucky to find this on line, a 3D printed GM Duramax block I think in 1/2 scale, bores are 1.625 di.  3D printed with all the oil & water passages, mounting bolt holes.  Including the production data info.  Way Cool.

[bbowser]

That would be awesome for a diorama!

[Dave Van]

Not sure how to rate 3D weather it is scratch building or not??? Like many things lots of variables. I got this 1/48 O scale Cass RR passenger car this week. It is just flat prints and needs LOTS of details added. It is a basic body that will be a lot different when I finish it. Where 3D fits in?? Not sure yet!

 

[bobss396]

The thing is, the hobby is undergoing a revolution. Really the first significant thing since the slush-cast resin days. Which was pretty crude in some instances. Look at all the casters that have come and gone since 1995. This is when I got back into the hobby. Cleaning up a bad resin body was real work. Just getting rid of the mold release was not always easy. I still have some questionable resin pieces that reek of diesel.

3D printing is still evolving and will improve. There will be a day that we will all have a printer at home and with the push of a button and a mouse click, we will have parts almost in real-time, ready to prime and paint. Maybe they will be made in our choice of color. 

My main crab with the process, I don't think all the parts makers actually use them. Things like distributor wire holes could be a few thousands larger. The material is hard to drill and is brittle. Wheel axle holes are real odd sized. I have some with a .110" diameter hole, a little sloppy for .093" tubing and too small to use .125" stock on. I will have to go out to my mill and carefully open these holes up. I have a few tunnel ram intakes with carburetors, some of them are quite under-scale, more like 1/32 that 1/25. One guy I talk to says that scaling is a black art and I believe him. 

[stitchdup]

I'm going to see a different sort of 3d printer sometime soon. Its a wax printer for making jewellery molds but I think it could have a use for making smaller aluminium parts. Aluminium melts at a lower temprature than silver so the possiblility is there. Its really down to the finish when it the cast parts come out as to whether it would be viable. and the cost obviously because it might be prohibative since its not a precious metal. It'll be interesting to seeeither way

[Big John]

20 hours ago, bbowser said:

That would be awesome for a diorama!

Can you imagine 1/64 scale?  Scaling digitally, at least in the CAD programs is pretty simple.  I build my parts in 1:1 and scale them as (for example) 24=1 for 1/24th etc. We may take it for granted that the parts will print out the same size however we don't really know how that is translated in the printer.  All the parts should be relative in scale to each other when printed on the same machine. To find out if the parts are to a specific size we would need to do some test parts and calibrate the printer by adjusting the scale factor of the artwork accordingly. 24.002=1 lets say. Remembering too that there are variables in resolution that may affect the final size. Vendor sourced parts will probably be hit or miss unless the vendor is meticulous in their scaling.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Big John
verbiage

[bobthehobbyguy]

So back to the original question.

So if I make aluminum parts for a model with just simple tools like files, hacksaw blades, etc then that would be considered scratchbuilding.

At the next level I use a lathe and mill. Is that scratchbuilding?

Finally I write a program to cnc the parts and for some that isn't scratchbuilding. Why?

[StevenGuthmiller]

36 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

So back to the original question.

So if I make aluminum parts for a model with just simple tools like files, hacksaw blades, etc then that would be considered scratchbuilding.

At the next level I use a lathe and mill. Is that scratchbuilding?

Finally I write a program to cnc the parts and for some that isn't scratchbuilding. Why?

We can beat this horse until it's dust, but I don't think anyone is going to change their position.

Some believe it is, some believe it isn't.

End of story.

 

 

 

Steve

[bobthehobbyguy]

I think my question is a valid one. Surely someone can answer it. Answering it has nothing to do with changing minds. It's understanding what the difference is in those 3 cases.

[Rob Hall]

Bottom line, who cares?  It only matters to whom is doing the building.  Seems like such a silly point for debate.  I like building models..whether it's straight from a kit box, or kit bashed between multiple kits, or I use resin aftermarket parts or 3D printed parts/body, or I make custom parts from raw sprue, it's all modeling...

[Tabbysdaddy]

1 hour ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

I think my question is a valid one. Surely someone can answer it. Answering it has nothing to do with changing minds. It's understanding what the difference is in those 3 cases.

The difference would be the verbs. Design, print, build. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

I think my question is a valid one. Surely someone can answer it. Answering it has nothing to do with changing minds. It's understanding what the difference is in those 3 cases.

I'm pretty sure that we've all already voiced our opinions.

I know I have.

This debate has been going on for over 2 months.

I think we've all had ample time to answer that question in our own way.

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Rob Hall said:

Bottom line, who cares?  It only matters to whom is doing the building.  Seems like such a silly point for debate.  I like building models..whether it's straight from a kit box, or kit bashed between multiple kits, or I use resin aftermarket parts or 3D printed parts/body, or I make custom parts from raw sprue, it's all modeling...

I couldn't agree more.

 

All that this thread does is ask for our opinions, and opinions are all that you're gonna get.

There is no right or wrong answer.

At this point it only gives people the opportunity to keep beating each other over the head expecting to sway others over to their way of thinking, but I think we all know that that will not happen.

But, I digress.

 

Carry on gentlemen.

 

 

 

Steve

[Muncie]

 

I remember going to grandma's house when I was a kid.  One of the treats was fresh biscuits for breakfast.  One morning all the cousins were talking about how good it was to have "scratch" biscuits.  Grandma was almost offended - to her "those aren't scratch biscuits" and corrected our terminology - the flour, milk, and butter came from the store.  As I remember it, she did have her own biscuit starter in the fridge.  Years later, I realized that she could go back to her times fixing breakfast for the harvest crew on the wheat ranch when she was a kid and helped till the soil, plant the seed, grow the wheat, harvest the grain, grind the wheat into flour, raise the cows, milk them, and churn the butter by hand.  

I think one of the few times the term "scratch" may be used or important around model cars is in contests.  GSL had a definition in their rules. 

[bobthehobbyguy]

Very cool story. It's interesting e resting to understand things from others perspective. It also shows how one's experiences shape those perspectives.

[Brizio]

On 11/23/2023 at 7:24 PM, Texas_3D_Customs said:

I mean you totally could do CAD without arms and legs I mean Stephen Hawkins can completely talk through a computer they got some complex software now that could let you use your eyes I guess if you had no eyes they could probably attach it to your chin or something but I guess if you had no chin no eyes no arms no legs You probably couldn't use a computer at all

I think you can still can, with a implanted device that uses neural signal.