News about the new "Jo-Han USA Oldies LLC" courtesy of Todd Sargis

[oldcarfan]

I'd love to see the new Jo-Han become a manufacturer of all the old kits the original used to produce. Until that happens, I'd be happy to see them produce utility trailers, car carrying trailers, and garage accessory kits to keep the money coming in. Perhaps they could add some modern wheel and tire options as well. A set of 18 inch steel wheels and tires like those used on the Crown Vic police cruisers would be nice for those of us who like to use them on modern day hot rods. Maybe other 18-20 inch wheels and tires that look like old school steel or vintage wheels but in modern sizes could sell. I love the Pegasus, Fujimi, and Otaki wheel and tire sets, but they tend to be too wide, or 4-lug, or such. A lot of people these days like to use 20 inch steel wheels and low profile tires with dog dish hubcaps for a new twist on an old school look

[mikos]

Quote

The thing is reissuringi the kits won't impact the price of the original sealed kits.  Original kits still are the primary interest of the collectors.The prices may drop on the rebuilders or incomplete kits.

If you believe so strongly there is a market then show us.

What will the cost to do the kit? Cloned may be cheaper but it's still a significant investment.

How much for licensing from the manufacturer who owns the rights to the full size vehicle?

What is your projected sales of the kits based on the kits subject matter? How many do you have to sell to make a ROI?

 

 

 

These need to be real numbers and not what you think they might be.

Reissues do impact the prices of older kits including the annuals to some extent.  Whenever Round2 comes out with a reissue, the market is flooded with older reissues and a few original annuals.  The prices of those older reissues are definitely affected.  

Why pay $150 for an original annual MPC 1976 Caprice when the current reissue which is the same right down to the white colored plastic it’s molded in for $30?  They even did a heritage box reissue more than a decade ago with the same box art except for minor differences.  I’m sure that impacted the values of the original annual slightly.

There is a market.  I’m one of them.  There are many like me who would love to see Jo-Han brand revived producing those wonderful old Johan kits again.

Cloning them is an investment, but even that low risk reward 3D printed resin trailer is an investment too.  If you are not willing to make an investment on something that you think can make even more money, then you shouldn’t really be in business or investing.  Everything has a risk/reward to it.

It doesn’t seem Round2 has to sell in the hundred of thousands to make a good ROI on their new cloned kits.  AFAIK, production runs are nowhere near what they were in the good old days when the auto manufacturers were subsidizing the cost.  What’s the exact number?  I don’t know.  10k units?  5k units?  Even less?  That would be something you’d have to ask Round2 if they would even share that information.  However, it’s rather obvious they can do it and even make a profit on the whole deal so it’s not as impossible as many here think it is.

Edited November 26, 2023 by mikos

[bobthehobbyguy]

15 minutes ago, oldcarfan said:

I'd love to see the new Jo-Han become a manufacturer of all the old kits the original used to produce. Until that happens, I'd be happy to see them produce utility trailers, car carrying trailers, and garage accessory kits to keep the money coming in. Perhaps they could add some modern wheel and tire options as well. A set of 18 inch steel wheels and tires like those used on the Crown Vic police cruisers would be nice for those of us who like to use them on modern day hot rods. Maybe other 18-20 inch wheels and tires that look like old school steel or vintage wheels but in modern sizes could sell. I love the Pegasus, Fujimi, and Otaki wheel and tire sets, but they tend to be too wide, or 4-lug, or such. A lot of people these days like to use 20 inch steel wheels and low profile tires with dog dish hubcaps for a new twist on an old school look

Only time will tell.  I hope that whatever goals they are setting become a success.

As far as cloning the old kits it all boils down to if it can be financially successful. It will take a lot of research to determine that. 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy

[Luc Janssens]

1 hour ago, mikos said:

I’m sure BMW and their racing teams, sponsors, etc would be at a much higher licensing rate than doing a cloned kit of a mid ‘60’s Cadillac.  I could be wrong, but my gut instinct tells me those premium German luxury brands would demand a much higher licensing fee than a domestic brand. 

Cloning can give us those old Johan kits again and they can market them under the nostalgic branding of the Jo-Han name.  I’m sure they would make money on it.  You just got to get the right people in, not the naysayers who say it can’t be done, to do it.  That’s why I think it’s imperative to have a parent company with deeper pockets be on the deal as well.  That’s why I suggested Round2.  Unless we want to just see some esoteric 3D printed trailer out of resin and call that the new Jo-Han, financial risks will have to be taken.  Deeper pockets can take more risks.  I think it would be worth it.
 

Round-2 doesn't need Jo-Han because they have a back catalog that will keep them busy for a long time.

The bottom line here is that technology-wise it's possible to clone with improvements former Jo-Han designs, and if there's ROI and funding a lot is possible, money talks bullshit walks.

 

[bobthehobbyguy]

2 hours ago, Luc Janssens said:

Round-2 doesn't need Jo-Han because they have a back catalog that will keep them busy for a long time.

The bottom line here is that technology-wise it's possible to clone with improvements former Jo-Han designs, and if there's ROI and funding a lot is possible

 

Exactly.

[oldcarfan]

6 hours ago, Luc Janssens said:

Round-2 doesn't need Jo-Han because they have a back catalog that will keep them busy for a long time.

My hope for Round2 is that they can use the success of that catalog to eventually add backdated and forward dated versions of the kits they have. Maybe the the 1971 and the later 1997 Dodge vans, and the 71 Pinto wagon and runabout, the 1974 Firebird and Camaro.

[Justin Porter]

On 11/24/2023 at 1:57 PM, mikos said:

There is nothing wrong with being another Round2.  Also, Round2 is not just cloning ancient kits, but also developing new tools like the new Bronco.  Of course, that’s due to help from the auto manufacturer (Ford) like in the old days with the promos/annuals.  I think if they want to get this new Jo-Han LLC off the ground, they will have to tap into the nostalgia market with cloning/reproducing a few vintage kits.  3D resin would not cut it because those would be at a much higher consumer price point than doing them in plastic.  Cloning the vintage kits would pay for the new tooling and bring the name into the 21st century that you desire so much.

Right now, we have nothing but speculation for what the new Jo-Han intends to do. You feel that 3D resin would be too high a customer price point for reasonably detailed kits of niche subjects. I disagree because clearly the market exists otherwise we would not see the explosion of 3D printed resin kits ranging generally from $50 to $100. Iceman, for instance, is currently rolling out a Jeep Cherokee to an eager audience. Kits of this nature suit the more esoteric builders who seek them out. 

An perfect case study in niche market pricing is the MSRP on the Salvinos/WMMC tie-up that produced their excellent Tour-type modified kits. These are fantastic kits that have been strong sellers thanks to their detail and their commitment to serving a group of builders - specifically short track race car builders - that have been effectively ignored by the plastic kit manufacturers ever since the last time Revell took their World of Outlaws winged sprint car off the market. The last new pavement specific kit in that genre? The 1980's tooled Revell ASA Camaros and Thunderbirds! However, the trade-off for builders has been that the modifieds carry $40+ price tags, putting them more in line with premium race car kits like those from manufacturers like NuNu or Belkits than your classic department store shelf fodder. 

You keep coming back to "cloning" as if all that any builder wants is a chance to build Jo-han's PATHETIC old AMC kits again. As if the modern auto builder wants seats that are molded into the interior bucket, scale three inch holes in the side of the engine block, zero core support detail, chrome headlights, mile thick one-piece glass, molded in exhaust with solid tips, molded in license plates that announce the car's year of manufacture, and on down the list. Yes, Round 2 is currently - in most cases - eliminating these kit design travesties to the best of their ability but they exist in droves in Jo-han's tooling. 

Jo-han - for reasons that continue to escape me to this very day - apparently was a byword for quality in the 1960's. If they are to be a byword for quality in 2024, they cannot expect to do so with the obsolete wreckage of the past. I say if this new Jo-han is starting from scratch, then let's REALLY start from scratch and 3D printed resin is the fastest, least risky method to do so compared to tooling for styrene production.

[bobthehobbyguy]

1 hour ago, Justin Porter said:

Right now, we have nothing but speculation for what the new Jo-Han intends to do. You feel that 3D resin would be too high a customer price point for reasonably detailed kits of niche subjects. I disagree because clearly the market exists otherwise we would not see the explosion of 3D printed resin kits ranging generally from $50 to $100. Iceman, for instance, is currently rolling out a Jeep Cherokee to an eager audience. Kits of this nature suit the more esoteric builders who seek them out. 

This is probably the most sensible parh to take. Nobody is going to retool the kits so somebody can pay $30 for a kit. The 3d printed kits will still be a lot cheaper than what the collector prices are for a kit.

 

1 hour ago, Justin Porter said:

You keep coming back to "cloning" as if all that any builder wants is a chance to build Jo-han's PATHETIC old AMC kits again. As if the modern auto builder wants seats that are molded into the interior bucket, scale three inch holes in the side of the engine block, zero core support detail, chrome headlights, mile thick one-piece glass, molded in exhaust with solid tips, molded in license plates that announce the car's year of manufacture, and on down the list. Yes, Round 2 is currently - in most cases - eliminating these kit design travesties to the best of their ability but they exist in droves in Jo-han's tooling. 

Cloning is just another tool for producing kits. It still represents a sizable investment to produce a kit. In addition when changes are made to those scans the production costs go up which require higher prices or greater volumes to be sold.

In the end there are a lot of considerations to be considered when producing a new kit. Those considerations need to be carefully researched to make sure the costs involved are justified.

In the end producing all new kits for something like the AMC kits makes more sense than resurrecting obsolete technology kits.

And yes Round2 is doing that with some of their kits but they already have the rights to modify those kits. They just need the original manufacturers licensing to do those kits. I think Round2 is doing a great job of this.

I think everything has been said about the topic and what everyone can realistically expect to happen.

[Richard Bartrop]

It's good to see another kit manufacturer, but really, what's in a name?  The kits are the important thing.  Me, when I think about the best of Jo-han, it's their classic kits and their Turbine car that come to mind, and as much as I'd like to see something like that come back,  I'm not holding my breath.  Some of the USA Oldies were nice, but for others, all I can say is, nostalgia is a heckuva drug.   If they aren't doing the Jo-han kits, does it really matter what they call themselves?

[Robberbaron]

9 hours ago, Justin Porter said:

Iceman, for instance, is currently rolling out a Jeep Cherokee to an eager audience. Kits of this nature suit the more esoteric builders who seek them out. 
 

Wow, that Cherokee looks great.  Bet he's going to have his hands full keeping up with demand on that one.

I'm still AMAZED that no company has come out with a styrene kit yet, considering the 1:1 cult following that has developed for those.

[Motor City]

23 hours ago, Justin Porter said:

Jo-han - for reasons that continue to escape me to this very day - apparently was a byword for quality in the 1960's. If they are to be a byword for quality in 2024, they cannot expect to do so with the obsolete wreckage of the past. I say if this new Jo-han is starting from scratch, then let's REALLY start from scratch and 3D printed resin is the fastest, least risky method to do so compared to tooling for styrene production.

 

Jo-Han was known for the accuracy of their bodies, grilles, and the interiors on the later models.  Molded-in seats was a mistake, and their early kits had too-shallow interiors.  The chassis and engine compartment detail were not up to today's standards, but neither were most of the other kits of that era.  Look at the body, grille and interior detail on a 1967 to 1970 Eldorado model.  Then look at the body accuracy of most of the recent models that companies just can't seem to get right such as Revell.

[Rob Hall]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:45 AM, Justin Porter said:

Right now, we have nothing but speculation for what the new Jo-Han intends to do. You feel that 3D resin would be too high a customer price point for reasonably detailed kits of niche subjects. I disagree because clearly the market exists otherwise we would not see the explosion of 3D printed resin kits ranging generally from $50 to $100. Iceman, for instance, is currently rolling out a Jeep Cherokee to an eager audience. Kits of this nature suit the more esoteric builders who seek them out. 
 

 

One thing interesting w/ the 3D printed resin kits is that, for example--there are multiple printing vendors--at least 4--currently offering the XJ Cherokee (all originating from Andrey Bezrondy's files, I believe) on FB and eBay...some ship quicker than others, some with higher quality than others...and if you have your own 3D printer and the skills and time, you can theoretically print your own since AB's files are available for purchase on cults3D and other sites.   Lots of choices.  Interesting times, and so much now available in the 3D space that will never be offered as a mainstream styrene kit or traditional resin kit.   I've bought a number of 3D prints of a variety of subjects, esp. the 70s land yachts I love...got to find the time and motivation to build them, though.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Rob Hall

[thatz4u]

more news coming in 2024,  trailers now, surprises later...

[charlie8575]

This was indeed an interesting development.

Charlie Larkin

[A modeler named mike]

After all the decisions, views, praises and gripes are given I say Great! I'm Looking forward to seeing what's in store to come. Any regenerated old kits or new kits are a welcome in my book whether I care for subject matter or not. You just can't please all of us all the time. 

[stavanzer]

I notice this topic seems to have gone dark.

Probably due to a lack of information from the spokesman for the company.

I fully expect that we will get more news, but I will not predict when.

I do like the trailer, though.