Buyer beware

[mikemodeler]

8 hours ago, mikemodeler said:

Yep, there are some who will argue with you that THEIR math makes it a bargain, no matter the outcome.  That Rustoleum will be so thick that panel lines will disappear and the final paint job will be as thick as that of an 1:1 car.

Wrong! A can of Rustoleum is cheaper than a tiny can of Tamiya paint. Someone else earlier mentioned that you can't use the Rustoleum paint after the first use, which is also completely false. People need to understand how paint works. The Rustoleum is meant to paint a garden chair in your breezy back yard successfully with minimal effort. The MrSurfacer (I personally believe Tamiya is better and I don't understand why HL switched it) is meant to spray plastic models in a confined environment. Naturally they are charged with different pressure, have different nozzles and they contents are not thinned the same. But if decanted and properly reduced they will work the same as far as their thickness goes. It is the same about paint attacking plastic. It is not the paint that is doing it, but the solvent that it is thinned with. You can have the exact same paint reduced with different thinners and it would interact differently with plastic and other paint. 

 

I think if you read my comments you will see that  I made no mention of Mr Surfacer being cheaper as I clearly pointed out the prices and the quantity for each. What I DID say was that one product was specifically designed for model car building while the other wasn't.

You mention above about properly decanting and thinning the automotive paint it will yield similar results. No one argued that point, at least not me, but the point is that one product is ready to use as is and the other requires more work and equipment. Keep in mind not everyone has an airbrush or the knowledge and skill to effectively decant and thin automotive paint for use in model building. I referenced Mr Surfacer as it was already mentioned in another post; I use Tamiya spray paints almost exclusively unless I have some leftover Testors lacquers to use up.

[StevenGuthmiller]

18 hours ago, mrm said:

And I 'm sorry, but we should set some kind of boundaries what are we talking about. Are we talking about using Rustoleum product in general or are we talking about using their spray cans for shooting paint straight from the can onto he body? Because these are two entirely different things. Some Testors spray cans will drown your model, bubble up on it, drip and leave puddles with fish eyes. Wait...let me correct that.MOST TESTORS CANS will do that.  And some will argue that it is all about "user error". Fine. But they are hooby paint in a can made for painting models right? So why does it take a week to cure and Tamiya cures in a day? Which brings us to the elephant in the room. What is hobby paint? And what is paint in general. Because House of Color is NOT made for plastic models. Nail Polish is NOT made for plastic models. Automotive (duhh) hot lacquers are NOT made for plastic models. Are you ready for it? MCW, Splash, Gravity, Scale finishes, SMS etc.,etc. are NOT made for plastic models. All of them are companies where someone had a large quantity of factory code paint mixed in an auto paint shop and then brakes it into smaller bottles with their label. Inside is the exact same hot automotive lacquer you will get if you walk into a PPG shop and order paint for your real car. And as we know, all these paints WILL give us trouble depending on how are we using them and what we combine them with. Have you stripped chrome with oven cleaner? That's not made for plastic models. Have you botched up a paint-job and soak it in break fluid? That's definitely not made for plastic models! Bondo anyone? That's not made for plastic models. Future floor polish? Yeah, definitely not for scale models. But we all have used these products and many still do. And there is no problem with it and everyone has accepted it. But actual paint that sticks to plastic? Oh, no! How dare anyone? That's not made for plastic models!!!

Okay, to begin with, you've never heard me say that you "must use" paints "made for models".

You're apparently thinking of someone else.

I'm completely aware that MCW and Scale Finishes are automotive lacquers, and I use Duplicolor primers and clears, also automotive paints.

I have said however, that aftermarket paint providers, such as MCW and Scale Finishes produce paint for the hobby, which is a fact.

Whether or not they are designed to be used on styrene plastic is a moot point.

Rustoleum isn't designed for that purpose either, but that has nothing to do whatsoever with the efficacy of either.

By the way, you're also not going to see me endorsing Testors enamels.

In my experience, there's little difference between it and Rustoleum.

18 hours ago, mrm said:

Wrong! Besides, why does the reason matter? They may want to paint with watercolor fingerpaint. Why the crusade against these people? 

If I'm wrong, I can fully accept that.....If you can offer me a reasonable alternative to my assumption.

 

I have no interest in pursuing a crusade against anyone who chooses to use Rustoleum paint who is aware of the properties of the product.

What I do have an interest in doing is saving unsuspecting young or inexperienced modelers the difficulties that they're very likely to encounter with the use of it.

Just because some might have reasonable success with it doesn't make it any less difficult to work with in comparison with most other paints, and I guess you could say that I have a little bit of an issue with endorsing things that I know for a fact are inferior products to people that I also know are very likely to run into problems when using it.

All one has to do is spend ten minutes on Facebook to find one after another failed attempt with Rustoleum paints of one form or another, to understand that these problems are not just some rare anomaly.

They are frequent, and nearly constant.

 

As I've said before, ad nauseam, I really don't care one bit what paint people choose to use.

What I do care about is when young or new modelers are encouraged to use something, (whatever it might be) and then end up completely discouraged by constant paint issues that can be easily avoided with better materials.

Call me crazy, but I believe in giving "the best" advice I can, not necessarily shallowly defending my own choices.

Even though I don't use them myself, I OFTEN suggest to new builders to consider using Tamiya paints.

Why?

Not because I'm a brand loyalist who wants to promote my preferred brand, but because I happen to know that Tamiya makes a fine product that is likely to produce a result that they can be proud of without having to have a degree in chemistry.

I'm not interested in stroking my own, or anyone else's ego.

I'm interested in offering legitimate help to those that need help the most.

 

 

 

 

Steve 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2024 by StevenGuthmiller

[Ace-Garageguy]

13 minutes ago, mikemodeler said:

... but the point is that one product is ready to use as is and the other requires more work and equipment. Keep in mind not everyone has an airbrush or the knowledge and skill to effectively decant and thin automotive paint for use in model building...

Also keep in mind the Rustoleum brigade are probably NOT the "serious" modeler lunatic-fringe we have here, and to the casual gloo-it-together-spray-some-color-on-it-stick-it-on-the-shelf modeler, the made-for-models materials will most likely give superior results.

I CAN get a superior paint job from just about anything, because I've been working with coatings for over 5 decades, often in situations where the work HAD to be first rate.

Try going to a marketing presentation with a proof-of-concept or patent model that looks like it was painted by a 5-year old using a dirty pinecone, and see how long your client base and referrals last.

But knowing what I know, unless there's a specific color I can't get anywhere else for whatever reason, why oh why would I use el cheapo DIY paint that sprays like a firehose, and may very possibly take all kinds of hoop-jumping to avoid horrors like crazing, inconsistent recoat-windows, etc.?

 

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 minute ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

But knowing what I know, unless there's a specific color I can't get anywhere else for whatever reason, why oh why would I use el cheapo DIY paint that sprays like a firehose, and may very possibly take all kinds of hoop-jumping to avoid horrors like crazing, inconsistent recoat-windows, etc.?

I don't know if I've been successful or not, but that's all that I'm trying to convey.

And then put yourself in the shoes of someone who's painting his third model ever, and think of how he would feel if he just finished painting his third failed paint job because people are telling him, "Just go to Home Depot and get yourself a few cans of Rustoleum".

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Bugatti Fan]

Mozzi,  please go back and read my post properly before wading in. 

Been there and got the Tee shirt so to speak intimates that I HAVE experimented with various products over the years. You missed the key word I used in it, 'eventually' about finding what works best for us.

Believe me, I can reminisce about some horrible (and expensive) disasters with models I have built down the years by, you might have guessed it by now, experimenting with non compatible finishing products.

[Speedpro]

I have found that giving "ANY" advice on using "ANY paints here or anywhere for that matter is such a huge waste of time. What I do works for me and nobody else! But I do find it entertaining to read the thread. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

18 minutes ago, Speedpro said:

I have found that giving "ANY" advice on using "ANY paints here or anywhere for that matter is such a huge waste of time.

I can tell you this.

I don't do it on Facebook anymore.

In all honesty, although I enjoy the Facebook groups for some purposes, I would never, ever, ask a serious question that I hoped to get a genuine answer for.

There are so many hacks and imbeciles offering answers to questions that they obviously know nothing about, that I seriously don't know how some unsuspecting kid, or an older builder just returning to the hobby after many years away, would ever be able to weed through all of the absolute dreck to find the kernels of usable information.

 

But here on the forum, I believe that most members are fairly well seasoned veterans and are able to process most information without getting terribly overly excited.

As a general rule, I believe that you're much more likely to get good, relevant information, and in a more civilized manner on a forum like this than in the pandemonium of Facebook.

Of course we have our occasional lapses here as well.

 

 

 

Steve 

[mrm]

8 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

Mozzi,  please go back and read my post properly before wading in. 

Been there and got the Tee shirt so to speak intimates that I HAVE experimented with various products over the years. You missed the key word I used in it, 'eventually' about finding what works best for us.

Believe me, I can reminisce about some horrible (and expensive) disasters with models I have built down the years by, you might have guessed it by now, experimenting with non compatible finishing products.

Perhaps you should revisit my post, as I was not talking about you. I agreed with pretty much everything you said, except that I believe that people should be left to make their own mistakes and earn their own proverbial "T shirts". I'll be honest, it had never crossed my mind to use Rusoleum paints from Wallmart. That was until I read the Rustoleum wars all over the net. That is what made me go and try it. Just as a challenge, to find out for myself. And since I decant pretty much everything, other than being a little thicker, I did not have much trouble with the Rustoleum colors. The biggest pain was cleaning my airbrush afterwards. So I have earned my T shirt too. My issue here is not whether someone likes or dislikes any paint, material, tool or whatever. To each their own. What I have an issue with is when people are telling other people to not even bother with given material/tool, just because it doesn't work for them. And I say, GO FOR IT. Even if it did not work out for me, maybe it will for you. Find out for yourself what works FOR YOU and what does not. What irks me is when the same people go on a crusade against people for their personal choices and belittle them, while complaining about how set in their ways the "Rustoleum crowd" is while demonstrating the exact same attitude they are complaining from. 

     And looking at some models here on the forum, facebook, youtube and at shows, I am pretty sure way more hobby spraycan paint jobs did not achieve the desired outcome than the Rustoleum jobs. The difference is that everyone concentrates on Rustoleum. And sorry, but I'm not sorry to say it, the biggest bashing of Rustoleum always comes from people who couldn't make it work for themselves. I can't give up all my secrets, LOL, but if some people on here spend a weekend with me and watch me build models and then see the results, they may jump off a cliff or set themselves on fire. Generally speaking I believe people overcomplicate the hobby instead of finding  new ways to enjoy it. 

 

I'm completely aware that MCW and Scale Finishes are automotive lacquers, and I use Duplicolor primers and clears, also automotive paints.

I have said however, that aftermarket paint providers, such as MCW and Scale Finishes produce paint for the hobby, which is a fact.

Whether or not they are designed to be used on styrene plastic is a moot point.

They don't produce paint at all, let alone for the hobby. They repackage automotive paint which they MARKET for the hobby. And it is not a moot point, because by your logic Rustoleum paint being for garden furniture would also be a moot point. The point is not which product is made for what, but that we have been using products with completely different purposes in the hobby for ages. 

  

Edited August 17, 2024 by mrm

[Bugatti Fan]

To be honest Mozzi, of late I must be getting  intolerant of the  chore of decanting paint for airbrushing and cleaning it up thoroughly afterwards.

Or maybe just getting lazy in my old age by using automotive acrylics straight from a rattle can on my models having found ones that that work for me.  The airbrush only comes out of I do any custom paintwork now.

I would heartedly agree with what you say about 'each to their own' about what works best for them.

You might get a laugh out of this but I have to relate a modelling incident of mine many years ago when I decided on my infinite wisdom to airbrush a model with cellulose paint, and being inexperienced at the time was reduced to tears as my expensive model started to dissolve before my very eyes!   That and all the other balls ups I have made down the years.

Ah well. You win a few and you lose a few. That's life I guess !

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, mrm said:

They don't produce paint at all, let alone for the hobby. They repackage automotive paint which they MARKET for the hobby. And it is not a moot point, because by your logic Rustoleum paint being for garden furniture would also be a moot point. The point is not which product is made for what, but that we have been using products with completely different purposes in the hobby for ages. 

Yes, I know that.

I am quite aware that they don't "manufacture" the paint.

They offer it to the public, "designated" as a paint to be used on model cars.

 

Likewise, yes.....I agree with you.

What all of these paints, including Rustoleum, were designed for, is a moot point.

None of these paints, were designed to be used on styrene plastic model kits, except for Tamiya and Testors, which makes their formulation in conjunction with modeling a "moot point".

 

"Which brings us to the elephant in the room. What is hobby paint? And what is paint in general. Because House of Color is NOT made for plastic models. Nail Polish is NOT made for plastic models. Automotive (duhh) hot lacquers are NOT made for plastic models. Are you ready for it? MCW, Splash, Gravity, Scale finishes, SMS etc.,etc. are NOT made for plastic models. All of them are companies where someone had a large quantity of factory code paint mixed in an auto paint shop and then brakes it into smaller bottles with their label. Inside is the exact same hot automotive lacquer you will get if you walk into a PPG shop and order paint for your real car. And as we know, all these paints WILL give us trouble depending on how are we using them and what we combine them with".

 

I'm not concerned in the least what the paints were "designed" to do.

Never was, and never said I was.

My concern is what they have the "ability" to do, or what they are "likely" to do, when used for our hobby.

Formulation is only important in respect as to how it needs to be prepared for.

What matters are the basic "properties" of the paint, and how it acts, and the delivery system by which it's delivered.

 

Granted, lacquers require more preparation to protect the plastic from damage.

But when compared to enamels such as Rustoleum, that take forever to dry, have basically untenable re-coat windows, are highly susceptible to temperature and humidity fluctuations, have much more of a tendency to run, sag, fish eye, obliterate detail, and have to be baby sat when it comes to using it in conjunction with any other paints, (ie, whether or not a particular clear is going to destroy it or not is a complete BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH shoot). Not to mention the notoriously bad spray cans and nozzles, which I'm certain is pretty common knowledge.

In contrast, lacquers dry extremely quickly, lay down much thinner allowing multiple coats without completely destroying detail, virtually never have running or sagging issues, have no archaic re-coat windows whatsoever, and will take virtually anything you want to throw at it as far as top coats after application.

Now why on God's green earth would I ever recommend the prior over the latter?

 

 

 

 

Steve

     

 

Edited August 17, 2024 by StevenGuthmiller

[Ace-Garageguy]

11 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

...There are so many hacks and imbeciles offering answers to questions that they obviously know nothing about, that I seriously don't know how [anybody who's not already at least semi-expert on any topic] would ever be able to weed through all of the absolute dreck to find the kernels of usable information...     

                                                                       (my words in italics above)

The definition of Life on the Internet in the Information Age.

Edited August 18, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy

[peteski]

I wish we could come back 40 or 50 years to the times when all the modelers had for painting plastic models were hobby paints from Testors PLA enamel and Pactra.  Those coatings were formulated to be plastic safe, and you could achieve pretty decent surface gloss and overall finish.  And how many people even used any sort of primer.  This discussion (sometimes more of an argument) we are having here would never even happen.  Sure, back then there were few 9and I mean "few") modelers experimenting with some other coating,s but 99% of modelers were (happily) using the model-specific  products.

In current times we have a maddening array of coating coming at us from every direction. Many aren't  designed to be applied to plastic. We have primer problems, We have plastic compatibility problems. We have paint brand and formula mixing problems, etc., etc. We have clear coat problems. We have Internet and social media. We have self-proclaimed paint experts.  It's nutz!

[Bugatti Fan]

And not forgetting good old Humbrol tinlets and to a lesser extent Airfix's own in little bottles like Pactra's were the go to model paints for UK modellers  back in the day, when enamel paints were the only thing in town !

Ahh, the smell of it when mixed with thinners for the airbrush  brings back memories of a much more deregulated time when it was left to our common sense to use it properly !          Those were the days eh Pete !

 

 

[peteski]

5 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

And not forgetting good old Humbrol tinlets and to a lesser extent Airfix's own in little bottles like Pactra's were the go to model paints for UK modellers  back in the day, when enamel paints were the only thing in town !

Ahh, the smell of it when mixed with thinners for the airbrush  brings back memories of a much more deregulated time when it was left to our common sense to use it properly !          Those were the days eh Pete !

True on all counts Noel, and you're right, I was looking at this from American perspective since I have lived here for over 40 years now.  

However in my early teens I lived in Poland and Humbrol tinlets were the only model paints available to me during that time. I recall seeing those for the first time, thinking that it was so cool that we had miniature paint cans for miniature models.  And you yes, all those brands had a similar, yet distinctively different smells.  And yes, all that does bring back some pleasant memories.  I  read somewhere that olfactory memories in our brains are strongly tied to emotions.

[Chariots of Fire]

Don't forget the old Floquil paints for railroad modeling.  Some of the best paint ever!

[Bugatti Fan]

Floquil.   Pretty good but very strong smelling paint for railway modellers.   

 Way back in the seventies a very good American friend of mine, the late Professor John Tilley, who back in those days was studying over here in the UK for his PhD in Marine History and a brilliant ship modeller, introduced me to Floquil Polly S Acrylic Model paints, the first of that type for modellers.  Very good paint as it happens but I believe it was discontinued quite a number of years ago.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Speaking of evocative smells...any of you fellers remember this stuff?

Edited August 20, 2024 by Ace-Garageguy
TYPO

[bobthehobbyguy]

Also AMT did spray lacquers that were friendly to plastics.

[1972coronet]

On 8/15/2024 at 8:58 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

You wouldn't paint a real car with latex or oil-based house paint and expect anything but a pathetic mess.

I resemble that remark ! But, the results were better 'an I'd anticipated ; to wit : 

- Removed the crummy vinyl top from my rust-free California beach car ;
- Ground / sanded off the rust-free California rust ;
- Sprayed rust converter on the rust-free surface ;
- Filled the deeper pits with JB Weld ;
- Welded (or was it well-did ?) patch panels into/over the rust-free holes on the C-pillars ;
- Sprayed primer over the top notch work in the carport at my friends' house on a windy day ;
- Then used a brush and a roller to Craigslistidly-apply the latex house paint over the SEMA-awarded body work.

I nude I shoulda getted Rustoleum for that mailbox finish, but I hadda spent more better funds on more bestest primer and materials.

[Mothersworry]

2 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Speaking on evocative smells...any of you fellers remember this stuff?

That's the Good Stuff...used allota this on my Gullows kits.

[Bugatti Fan]

AMT Lacquers.   I remember using one of two of them that I got over here in the UK back in the sixties I think. They were very good paints as had some unusual metallics in their range.

Flying model aircraft dope. There was a brand named Oh My Dope years back in the UK I seem to remember. It stank to high heaven when I used it on a balsa glider model. Don't know if the brand still exists or not as I have never been into flying aircraft models ever since.

[bobss396]

16 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Also AMT did spray lacquers that were friendly to plastics.

There were 2 issues of the AMT sprays, I caught the 2nd round when they went to the Tamiya-sized cans. It said lacquer on the label. I likely never used primer on anything. This is from 1965 to around 1972 then I got out of the hobby for 23 years. I wish that paint was still around.

[peteski]

On 8/19/2024 at 12:50 PM, Chariots of Fire said:

Don't forget the old Floquil paints for railroad modeling.  Some of the best paint ever!

True, but the original formula attacked styrene (had to use Barrier coat first), but Rev1 were plastic compatible.  Since those are flat finish,the are best for painting parts of model cars which are not supposed to have glossy finish.  I miss Floquil too (but still have a small stash).

[Bugatti Fan]

Talking of flat finishes by Floquil. I think their original formula was for model rail enthusiasts who made their models from metal.

The mention of flat finished reminded me that there is a company named Hiroboy in the UK who import the MFH kits. They ave a range of auto colour paints for airbrush use under the name Zero Paints. They go on flat and need to be sprayed clear gloss to finish.

[Jordan White]

I use non-model brand specific paints all the time and don't have really any issues.

 

However, I will note that the can in the original post is labeled a TURBO can, which is different than their normal spray paint. The turbo cans are meant to put out a higher volume of paint for people who are using them on large projects and need a larger spray pattern, hence you don't want to use them on models period!