Exotics_Builder Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 To me, It comes across as judgements being made based on a single photo of the test shot judgements made without any consideration of camera angle or camera lens distortion. So it seems some are ready to pronounce it wrong from one not very good photo before they ever lay hands on it. I just got the test shot back , about 2 hours ago, I was told that the test shot was only out of the display case once for a few minutes during the I-Hobby Show.. I have, thus far seen only one photo of the test shot from the show - that being of it sitting in the display case from an angle that you'll never see of a real car. I've measured the real car - I've measured the test shot I've compared the test shot to lots of photos of real cars and I can't find any significant errors in dimensions on the test shot. So I must wonder how anyone who doesn't have this actiual chunk of plastic in hand can know that the body is so wrong. I'll keep looking at it and try to get some additional dimensional info to check but I can't find the problem now..If I can find a significant problem, I'll do my best to get it corrected - just saying the significant error in the body size, shape, proportion eludes me @ his time! As for the 8 lug wheels I can see the error and I will do my best to make revisions to correct that - but the notion that we'll just go back to a one piece wheel right away is not an attractive option. I took the shots out of the case as well. A show environment has severe limits as to how well you shoot. There is no good way to get a camera angle plus avoid lighting issues. I am no expert, but the body looked pretty darn good to me. A couple of more knowledgeable people I know think so too. I see the wheel issue. I personally am not a fan of those although they are iconic. I have to say I am a little disturbed on how people can start having at test samples rather than pose questions to Dave, who diligently scans this board. The wheel design is legitimate, perhaps the C-pillar sway. The way I feel right now, no more test shots or box art photos I have are getting posted here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 51 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) I thought it was apropriate to share perceptions of the new Pontiac....if nothing is wrong with the "size" of the body... that's great. However I would think Dave and company are interested in their customer's perceptions of their products. Dave didn't seem upset about the wheel or c-pillar comments and he seems confident that the body is OK. Frankly Gerry your "I'm not going to do this again" response seems a bit odd. If the "camera" distorted the appearance of the model,maybe the easiest way to fix that problem would be for Dave to take some photos that don't "distort" the kit? My comments were meant to be helpful not insulting and I assume that is the case with the others who raised concerns.... Edited October 4, 2014 by mike 51 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niteowl7710 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) For once I can honestly say I don't see much wrong with this thing that can't be tweaked in test shot revisions. Yeah the wheels need fixed, the C-Pillar isn't quite there. Along with that the "kick-out" behind the front door to the rear of the car is super prominent on the test shot and is rather subdued on the real thing. The front of the spear over the front wheel wells is not quite tall enough and seems to end OVER the wheel well (as in it has a bottom), rather than the bottom of the spear being "lost" on the wheel well(wheel well cutting into the spear). Lastly the bottom character line on the real car kicks up on a jaunty angle towards the bumper while the test shot shows it going straight from the front to the back of the car like someone laid a level on the side of the car and drew a line. But none of that is unfixable. It's not too long or too short, it's not pre-chopped for my inconvenience. I'm presuming since this thing has a 3Q2015 tag attached Dave and other have noted the above and will fix it in subsequent tooling shots. If you just go Google Image search the car depending on what angle it's taken at it's a sporty 2 door, or a borderline land yacht. The acre and a half of monotone gray doesn't help things, nor shooting it through a glass display case. Edited October 4, 2014 by niteowl7710 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blubaja Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I have to say I am a little disturbed on how people can start having at test samples rather than pose questions to Dave, who diligently scans this board. The wheel design is legitimate, perhaps the C-pillar sway. The way I feel right now, no more test shots or box art photos I have are getting posted here. If something is wrong, it's wrong. Not pointing out any errors will just keep the errors into production, then everyone will just have hissyfit when the model is for sale. You get offended because the angle of the one picture you posted makes the car look off. If you have more pics, I'm sure it would help the kit's case on being accurate. What is your deal man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisBcritter Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I have a test shot body with bumpers sitting on a ruler right now - to these tired old eyes it is 213.5mm long - if you do the math that translates into a full sized car at 210 inches 61 Ventura is 210 inches over all length! (Bonneville is 218)The wheelbase of is 121mm - that translates to 119 inches at full size - right on the money for a 1961 Ventura (Bonneville is 123). OK, I just measured the AMT Bonneville - wheelbase is 125 mm which translates to 123.0315", and the overall length is +/- 221 mm, which equals 217.51975" (I don't have calipers and my ruler is only 6" so there's a margin of error of a millimeter or two) so it looks like both are about right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danno Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 With the fixes Dave has indicated, this is going to be one dawn beautiful model! I don't have the test shot to measure, but by 'scaling' the pix it looks pretty accurate in length and dimension. On the 1:1, the length of the doors is approximately the same as the length of the rear quarter fenders behind the rear wheel wells. The pix of the test shot have the same relationship. The front of the C pillar on the 1:1 falls directly above the front rim of the rear wheel; so does the test shot. The rear windshield of the 1:1 ends above the rear of the rear tire; so does the test shot. Looks good, Dave!! Kudos on bringing a great car to the table with a great model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The70judgeman Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 3Q2015! WHOH WHoh whoh....hold the boat! Now we have wait about ANOTHER year!?! No more early Merry Christmas to us from Moebius this year? Don't get me wrong, I want this kit to be right, but the wait is getting painful! We Pontiac addicts have been jonesing for something new for a long long time. We need a fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but I thought I'd do a quick visual comparison. I lined up the cars by the wheelbase. A few things immediately jump out to my eye. The rear overhang is way too long, and the photos bear this out. Yes I know, the camera lens can distort, blah, blah, blah... but the camera lens wouldn't put extra length between the center of the rear wheel and the end of the fender panel: Another thing that to me at least is very obvious is the point where the bottom of the rear glass meets the body (white arrows). On the real car this happens behind the center of the rear wheel, on the model it happens in front of the center of the rear wheel. That shorter roof on the model makes the rear end look even longer... and it's already too long to begin with. The rear of the doors line up exactly, but the front of the door is too far forward. Small things? Being nit-picky? Don't think so. The fact is, even small things can make a model look odd. You may not know exactly why the model seems off to you just by looking at it alone, but comparing it to the real thing like this makes the differences obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ellis Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I can't tell for sure, but it appears the camera is lying a bit. One shot is taken far away and the other taken at a foot or less making one more skewed from the other. The model could be correct, yet by optical illusion, looks incorrect. I can't believe the model is off 8 scale inches, when a lot of work was done measuring it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclescott58 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 The angle of the real car and model car are not photographed exactly the same, Harry. I think we're being a little quick on making judgements on the body using this photograph. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbwelda Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 there is no way any angle is going to make that rear window appear to terminate after the centerline of the rear wheel instead of before it as it appears to in that comparison. I would think all this would be valuable input to check out really closely at this stage instead of after it has been committed to production. jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lysleder Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) there is no way any angle is going to Sure is! (respectfully) I can find reason to believe that the test shot body is longitudinally correct in the area of the bottom edge of the rear window. On the other hand, since the pictures are out and Moebius is listening, - Is the sheetmetal coming up to the rear window doing so at the right angle, and the right curvature? That is, the panel between the trunk and rear window seem to my eye to have a somewhat gentler "sweep" on the 1:1 car than the plastic body. Then again, it is hard for me to tell for sure, but maybe Dave can confirm wether or not something is off there. Edited October 5, 2014 by lysleder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Nemanic Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Boy, that body really IS messed up! If you look at the test shot in Harry's composite, it is clear that the passenger's side is too long and the driver's side is way too short. The driver's rear is way ahead of the of the blue car's and the driver's front is behind that of the blue car. Perhaps the blue car was shot with a normal lens and the model was shot with a wide angle. This would mean that Mr. Metzger is correct and that we should top griping. Based on past kits, I'm guessing that the body is fine and that we should have some faith in Dave and Moebius. He has said that he will try to get the wheels and the kick up fixed- to me, this shows good faith that is worthy of our respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lysleder Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) Not quite perfect at the C-pillar, but nearly there. Even if this were left as is, it would still be way easier to fix than the '62 Bel Air. Sorry Chris, but I'm going to use your images to make my point clearer. Please refer to my post above ( #162) . Edited October 5, 2014 by lysleder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danno Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Not only all of that, but the test shot is gray! It's clear from the comparison pictures that the 1:1 is blue! Moebius can't even get the color right! Sheeesh! Boy, that body really IS messed up! If you look at the test shot in Harry's composite, it is clear that the passenger's side is too long and the driver's side is way too short. The driver's rear is way ahead of the of the blue car's and the driver's front is behind that of the blue car. Perhaps the blue car was shot with a normal lens and the model was shot with a wide angle. This would mean that Mr. Metzger is correct and that we should top griping. Based on past kits, I'm guessing that the body is fine and that we should have some faith in Dave and Moebius. He has said that he will try to get the wheels and the kick up fixed- to me, this shows good faith that is worthy of our respect. I'm with Vince. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie8575 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 That Dave is listening and wants this right as bad as we do is definitely credit to Team Moebius. Charlie Larkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbwelda Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 see, the point of this sort of discussion is to make that person with the model in his hands look at what is being pointed out. if it all specs out, kool and everything is good. if on the other hand there is in fact some discrepancies, then he can or might be the hero who points it out and gets the problems rectified. making light of the situation just justifies a lackadaisical attitude when it come to confronting the reality of that situation. jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danno Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 That Dave is listening and wants this right as bad as we do is definitely credit to Team Moebius. Charlie Larkin I'm with Charlie, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 What I do not understand is if you can fix other issues, why not the wheels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclescott58 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I'm with Danno and Vince on this one. By the way, cameras can and do lie. That's part of the reason why there are professional photographers. It's their job to get the truth, or enhance the lies. Again, I think some are being way to quick in judging this model on this photograph. And Dave seems to agree with the problems in the belt line and wheels, and is looking into it. Since he reads these posts I'm sure he's going to take a closer look at the model to make sure it's right before we get our hands on it. Look at the Moebius kits they given us so far. They're great. I'm sure this one will be too. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrObsessive Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Scott, I agree with you to a point...........the comparison that Harry made has some validity. That the rear end is that waaay off to my eyes is bothersome. I had pointed it out before most noticed it, and I didn't mean for it to turn into a big kerfuffle. I had also noticed that the aperture of the rear window wasn't quite up to snuff either, but withheld saying anything. Maybe that's a fault of mine-------my Mom always said that I was "too observant" as a kid, and things like this jump out at me particularly when cars like this were virtually everywhere once upon a time. But! As you said, let's wait and see what the final product is once the kit comes out. And yes, Moebius's models have been top notch as of late, and it's a proven fact that they DO listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim boyd Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but I thought I'd do a quick visual comparison. I lined up the cars by the wheelbase. A few things immediately jump out to my eye. The rear overhang is way too long, and the photos bear this out. Yes I know, the camera lens can distort, blah, blah, blah... but the camera lens wouldn't put extra length between the center of the rear wheel and the end of the fender panel: Another thing that to me at least is very obvious is the point where the bottom of the rear glass meets the body (white arrows). On the real car this happens behind the center of the rear wheel, on the model it happens in front of the center of the rear wheel. That shorter roof on the model makes the rear end look even longer... and it's already too long to begin with. The rear of the doors line up exactly, but the front of the door is too far forward. Small things? Being nit-picky? Don't think so. The fact is, even small things can make a model look odd. You may not know exactly why the model seems off to you just by looking at it alone, but comparing it to the real thing like this makes the differences obvious. Harry...I'm nowhere the expert on graphics and photography that you are, and interesting comparison. But it's a bit apples and oranges as the lense configurations appear to be entirely different. Note the distance between the rear fender closest to the camera and farthest from the camera in each picture. See how in the 1:1 scale pix, that visual distance between the rear edge of the near and far fender is less than half what it is in the Moebius test shot photo? My observation is that this camera lense configuration is lending itself to the visual observation that the Moebius quarters are too long. Not to say your observations are entirely wrong, though. The only way to do a fully correct comparison is to use the same Camera, same lense, same photography angle, and same distance away from the object (relative to scale) to photograph both the 1.1 and 1/25th scale cars. Preferably with the model also painted, foiled and assembled. Looks like we'll have to wait until we get a sample in hand to do that. I think we also need to give a heavy weight to Dave's observations that the overall length and wb of the model are correct, as he's the only one who has the actual model in hand. Best regards...TIM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I realize that the two photos are not a direct, exact comparison; they were shot with different lenses, etc., etc. I get that. I took plenty of photography classes in school. But there's no way I'm going to be convinced that the rear overhang on the model is correct. I can see that it's too long without any reference photo to compare it to. It just doesn't look "right." There are two possibilities: either the model is correct or it's not. If it is correct, then all is well, and I'm wrong. If it's not correct, then NOW is the time for Moebius to recheck and make sure it's right. And that's why Dave is posting about this kit. because Moebius cares, and they do make an effort to "get it right." Seing as that's the case, no time like now to discuss possible issues. We've already established that the wheels are wrong. Maybe we've also caught some body proportion issues before the kit hits the shelves. And isn't that a good thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Here's another side-by-side with a different shot of the real car. As you can see, I have again lined up the cars by wheelbase. Note that the wheel openings match almost perfectly, and they are shaped correctly, so no problem there. Front overhang looks right on target. But again, you can see that the rear end of the model looks quite a bit too long, and I see that same discrepancy where the lower edge of the rear glass meets the body. That happens behind the center of the rear wheel on the real car, but ahead of the center of the rear wheel on the model. Not trying to be a jerk here,,, just trying to present visual evidence to back up some of the opinions that have been posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Van Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 The photo comparison is neat....but I don't think it is accurate enough to draw hard conclusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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