Discounts on Tamiya products - POOF! GONE!

[Art Anderson]

On 5/12/2018 at 9:28 PM, SfanGoch said:

Tamiya can also legally refuse to engage in business with retailers who decline to sign the MAP agreement or advertise and sell its products below the mandated MAP. 

Ahhh, but Tamiya, like most every other model kit mfr, almost NEVER interfaces with any retailer, be that a storefront, or a mail order/internet order outfit.  This smacks of so-called "Fair Trade Laws'" which were a series of price-fixing protections. passed, and ultimately declared unconstitutional, in the 1930's.  In short, Tamiya doesn;'t have a leg to stand on, in this issue.

 

Art

[Art Anderson]

On 5/12/2018 at 9:28 PM, SfanGoch said:

Tamiya can also legally refuse to engage in business with retailers who decline to sign the MAP agreement or advertise and sell its products below the mandated MAP. 

The vast majority of Tamiya (indeed all model kits!) arrive at your LHS via a 3rd party, a wholesaler, and thus Tamiya cannot control the final selling price at the cash register, end of statement.

 

[niteowl7710]

There's no actual mention of this "notice" on their actual website. So I'm not sure where this image which popped up all over Facebook this morning came from exactly. 

After the stink Tamiya USA made to the home office about people direct importing kits and whatnot, the last thing that would help their case is setting a "fake" MAP price for retailers regardless to whether or not it could be enforced.

Also as Fumi has pointed out twice already Internet Hobbies has the reputation of a flaming dumpster fire and their prices on Tamiya kits are already overpriced in terms of what they're offered for elsewhere in the U.S.

I suspect this is a scam relating to a pitiful attempt to move some merchandise on their part. If Tamiya were instituting a global MAP program it would have been the scuttlebutt of the Shizouka Hobby Show. The only thing I saw Mr. Tamiya handing out were thank you awards to the various model clubs that have supported the public show days over the past 20 years.

[SfanGoch]

MAP does not violate any antitrust legislation, including the Sherman Act. Look it up. For further reading on the legality and enforcement of MAP policies, go here.

[peteski]

To me this is much ado about nothing. Like I mentioned in my previous post, the discounting will still go on, but the discounted price cannot be advertised. That's all.  I'm used to that with Kato (model trains).

[niteowl7710]

The more important question is who buys new Tamiya kits from U.S. vendors in the first place?

[SfanGoch]

54 minutes ago, Art Anderson said:

Ahhh, but Tamiya, like most every other model kit mfr, almost NEVER interfaces with any retailer, be that a storefront, or a mail order/internet order outfit.

Tamiya products are distributed in the U.S.A. by Tamiya USA; so, Tamiya does interface with retailers since the retailers can only order through it. Tamiya, like other manufacturers who want to protect the value of their brand, can offer retailers a "take it or leave it" option. As a private commercial entity, it is legally free to choose with whom it wishes to conduct business and can institute policies, such as MAP, which the retailers must agree to in order to purchase merchandise. Otherwise, they're SOL. Tamiya's legal standing is upheld if it acts independently of other like manufacturers. If Tamiya, along with other kit manufacturers, agreed  as a group to vertical and horizontal pricing policies, that would be price fixing and in violation of antitrust statutes. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by SfanGoch

[Pete J.]

3 hours ago, fumi said:

It is the MSRP.  Most shops in Japan sell below that price.

True!

 

[martinfan5]

I am going with this is lame attempt to drum up some sales, nothing more, nothing less, I am not going to lose sleep over it.

[mikemodeler]

The Japanese companies have a historical past of trying to fix pricing on their goods, not limited to plastic model kits. 30 years ago I bought a Mitsubishi TV and five years later I received a check from Mitsubishi as they had been found guilty of collusion (no politics!) with other manufacturers of pricing by the FTC. The same has happened in the auto parts industry and I believe others as well.

As others have stated, could be a ruse by Internet Hobbies to drive sales, wouldn't surprise me if it was.

 

Meanwhile, let's speculate some more on Revell!

 

[peter31a]

While Internet Hobbies is taking a hit as scamming people, I've seen at least one other model seller on Facebook claiming that this is true information.

[Fat Brian]

I just heard back from Tamiya, it's real. Please direct all you hate mail to the correct address, MAP_Policy@Tamiya.com

[Quick GMC]

Anyone who thinks MAP is price fixing is wrong, dead wrong. MAP is legal. If you don't like it, buy something else. 

If you think Tamiya will need to take on Amazon, also wrong. Amazon is a fullfillment center for distributors and manufacturers. All they need to do is cut off any distributors not complying with MAP, and they will go away. That's how it works. You set MAP. Johnny's model shop doesn't want to comply? They don't get to buy kits anymore. It's pretty simple. 

The fact that they are sending this letter now means they most likely have every intent to follow up on it. 

I deal with MAP with several distributors in my business and they will absolutely bring the hammer down if you try and circumvent it. 

If you think it's unconstitutional, illegal, unfair, not right, or whatever, then you have absolutely no clue how wholesale and retail distribution work. If you are going to cry about it, buy from someone else. All you people do is complain about America, American companies and blah blah, but when an overseas manufacturer that puts out high quality products wants to level the playing field, you still complain. Maybe just go sit the basement and wait to die if you can't be pleased with anything 

Edit: MAP isn't always equal to MSRP. MSRP is what they would like to see it sell for, like $70 or so for the LaFerrari. MAP very well could be $55 or so, which is really not all that bad, considering the kit. It could also be $70, and then you can buy it, or not. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Quick GMC

[hpiguy]

Just means I'd be buying far fewer Tamiya kits. Their loss.

I love Tamiya kits but I'm not paying full retail price for them. I'll just buy a more detailed Dragon or Takom or Meng kit of the same subject if I have to pay that much.

This won't help them. The hobby is already struggling. Silly to price yourself out of the range of the average builder of your product.

These aren't Ferraris or Teslas where they have the marketplace cornered for their specific product.

[CabDriver]

On 5/13/2018 at 6:36 PM, SfanGoch said:

The one place I've previously mentioned, Jan's Hobby Shop, on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, prices kits 1 1/2 times to twice the MSRP. That's why you'll find the kits on the shelves covered with an impressively thick layer of dust. "Sale" and "deal" are not a part of its business vocabulary.

Ain't that the truth - I live 2 blocks from here and go to Rudy's in Astoria instead

[Pete J.]

One other part of this that many don't get it what a small percentage of the Tamiya market the US amounts too.  It is less than %15 world wide.  In the grand scheme of things if the gross sales here drop by even 10% of the US market,  it really doesn't mean that much to the parent company in Japan.  They know that if they put out the best product, people will buy it.  Maybe not everyone, but they have a very specific market in mind and I think they are doing what the Japanese do and that is keeping the long view in mind.  You and I may not see it, but I am certain they have plan. 

[niteowl7710]

Probably trying to claw back some of that half million dollars they lost when Hobbico when under. Still - go buy direct from Japan, it's silliness to even buy kits from any manufacturer over there via U.S. prices.

Edited May 15, 2018 by niteowl7710

[Quick GMC]

3 minutes ago, niteowl7710 said:

Probably trying to claw back some of that half million dollars they lost when Hobbico when under. Still - go buy direct from Japan, it's silliness to even buy kits from any manufacturer over there via U.S. prices.

if the MAP isn't exclusive to the US, that won't help you. You'll end up paying even more with the overseas shipping. 

[Quick GMC]

If you only buy Tamiya kits when they are on sale, or second hand, you aren't Tamiya's target demographic. A bunch of angry people that don't know why they're angry won't affect their revenue. 

[cmfowler]

On 5/13/2018 at 10:51 PM, peteski said:

Copying what I posted in the parallel thread about this:

Kato (model train manufacturer) has been doing that for years. But the retailers still sell the products at a discount. The only difference is that they cannot show the discounted price until you add the item to the shopping cart.

Here is an example (the price shown is the MAP price).

https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/trains/locomotives/#filter:brand:Kato

More info: https://www.pricewaiter.com/2017/02/minimum-advertised-price-map-vs-manufacturer-suggested-retail-price-msrp/

I have been thinking the same is going to apply here. Small brick and mortar stores will still be able to sell at whatever and the internet dealers will show a "MAP" price and a "add to cart for our price" similar to what you see with Kato products. 

[Pete J.]

3 hours ago, Quick GMC said:

if the MAP isn't exclusive to the US, that won't help you. You'll end up paying even more with the overseas shipping. 

Well no.  I've been converting the japanese price in yen printed on the box on Tamiya for years and when you convert it from yen to dollars, it is far cheaper than what you would pay in the US.  Sometimes as low a 1/3 the price but most often half price.  Example:  The current Tamiya Mercedes 300SL kit MSRP here is $71.  The Japanese MSRP printed on the box is 4200 yen.  With the current exchange rate that is $38.22.  Hobby Link Japan will ship it for about $12.  In California I would have about $5 sales tax.  Total cost $77 vs $50 shipped in from Japan.  Just checked Squadron and they have it listed for $51.  After shipping is is $65 .   Yup, HLJ is still a better deal, but we will have to wait and see what happens.  Shopping around will always be a prudent approach. 

[niteowl7710]

MAP doesn't have anything to do with MSRP anyways, it's the minimum ADVERTISED price. 

I guess no one remembers when Revell pulled this same stunt last year, or maybe it was the end of 2016. But the theory was to attempt to level the playing field between brick and mortar stores and Internet storefronts who can obviously sell at a lower price due to reduced overhead. I don't seem to recall any real fall out from that MAP program, Hobby Lobby still sold kits for 40% off, my local plastic pusher sold kits for 40% over wholesale - which is effectively the same price in the end.

All of which is moot when comparing the direct import price of a Tamiya kit and the U.S. price of said kit. Tamiya can't force HLJ, Hobby Search, Plaza Japan/Tokyo Hobby, HobbyEasy, Hiroboy, Spotmodel, etc, etc, etc to only advertise a price that's in-line with the Tamiya USA MAP price.

[Daddyfink]

Oh well, it's not like I need more models! 

[Mr. Metallic]

On 5/13/2018 at 11:21 PM, SfanGoch said:

MAP does not violate any antitrust legislation, including the Sherman Act. Look it up. For further reading on the legality and enforcement of MAP policies, go here.

And for those that don't want to take the time to read the link, here's a laymans explanation of MAP for those that still think it's illegal in the US(this is paraphrased from the corporate training we receive at my company). You probably have it confused with anti-trust and collusion laws with regards to price fixing. An individual company can set whatever price they want for their product, and how aggressively they enforce this price is up to them (and it appears that Tamiya is going to get more aggressive). This is not the same as the illegal activity of rival companies colluding together to set prices to keep them artificially high(price fixing). This is usually done behind closed doors and in secret and is designed to keep profits higher at the detriment of the customer. This is also different from monopoly type laws where a company buys up the competition and becomes the "only" provider for a product (or controls too much of the market). Also illegal in the US. That is not what Tamiya is doing here in either case, and is therefor not illegal in the US.

Lots of companies do it, the biggest example that springs to my mind is Apple. Everyone has to sell their products at the same advertised price. The way some retailers get around that is by offering secondary promotions to the customers(buy this ipod, and we'll give you a free gift card)

Edited May 15, 2018 by Mr. Metallic
spelling errors

[Quick GMC]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Metallic said:

And for those that don't want to take the time to read the link, here's a laymans explanation of MAP for those that still think it's illegal in the US. You probably have it confused with anti-trust and collusion laws with regards to price fixing. An individual company can set whatever price they want for their product, and how aggressively they enforce this price is up to them (and it appears that Tamiya is going to get more aggressive). This is not the same as the illegal activity of rival companies colluding together to set prices to keep them artificially high(price fixing). This is usually done behind closed doors and in secret and is designed to keep profits higher at the detriment of the customer. This is also different from monopoly type laws where a company buys up the competition and becomes the "only" provider for a product (or controls too much of the market). Also illegal in the US. That is not what Tamiya is doing here in either case, and is therefor not illegal in the US.

Lots of companies do it, the biggest example that springs to my mind is Apple. Everyone has to sell their products at the same advertised price. The way some retailers get around that is by offering secondary promotions to the customers(buy this ipod, and we'll give you a free gift card)

Yet, people are stubborn and will refuse to educate themselves and continue to pretend-boycott.