Something to consider, folks, about model car kit production!

[blunc]

Actually, what needs to happen is that those of you who want to read an interview with modeling company personnel should email or write the Editors of the magazines you read and let them know of your interest in that subject.  

As a regular contributor to the two largest model magazines, I stand ready to do an interview with any in the industry, but from what I am told, there is very little interest in this subject from the readership of the magazines.  Personally, I think this is wrong, but my opinion doesn't really count, it's the opinion of the overall readership that matters.  

So please, let the Editors know with a note.  (Posting your comments on a forum thread won't be effective; I don't know any magazine editor these days that has the time to read forums for reader feedback.  Sad but true.) 

TIM 

PS - I had finally talked one of the magazines into letting me do an article featuring an interview with Revell executive Roger Harney, who was getting ready to retire after a 57 year career with Monogram and Revell.  Sadly, Roger passed away unexpectedly just a couple of weeks before we had agreed to meet and do the interview .  TB

I would be interested in the history/views of anyone that has been involved in the car/model car industry.

Even people that merely worked at Car Model magazine will probably have some interesting stories.

I get a kick out of the old "letters to the editor" sections...still reads the same as these forums. 

[Hard_2_Handle_454]

The reason for so many kits on the market is because they do not sell and thus stay on the market, not because they keep cranking out the same models the next year,  By the next year, they are on to the next model.

[Steven Zimmerman]

Maybe this there model industry should only tool up and/or reissue kits that actually sell?

How about this for a business concept?

If companies could actually predict "what would sell" and what would not, no one would ever go out of business, and every one of them would make a profit. I will wager that today's model producing companies  spend a lotta moolah, probably more than ever before, on research and development. We ALL 'think' we know what would sell, based on our own preferences; unfortunately , in the real world, it doesn't work that way......Ask any resin caster about this............'Z'

[dave branson]

Why not?

They are great for young builders and old builders that remember seeing them in person.

See I don't buy that. the people you are taking about never seen those reissue Wal-Mart never had them. The kids more than likely thought  that they looked stupid, because they didn't look like the Fast & Furious or the cars from the movie cars, I think they would have wiser making the old NASCAR models and NO I'm not a fan of NASCAR. My favorite would have been the old Pro Stock kits. I know 3 Hobby Shop owners that I buy from still have those Zinger things on the shelves, they also cringe at the new release Star Wars models when they come out. Simple because they don't sell 

[Eric Macleod]

I would very much appreciate am insiders perspective of the model car hobby.  Road and Track has a column written by Bob Lutz about the 1:1 industry.  Each month I find I start my reading there.  I'll add mt comments about this when I renew my subscription.  Tim Boyd is on to a great idea here.

[Luc Janssens]

If companies could actually predict "what would sell" and what would not, no one would ever go out of business, and every one of them would make a profit. I will wager that today's model producing companies  spend a lotta moolah, probably more than ever before, on research and development. We ALL 'think' we know what would sell, based on our own preferences; unfortunately , in the real world, it doesn't work that way......Ask any resin caster about this............'Z'

Think with reissues they have a pretty good idea what flies or not....they call it past sales data

 

[unclescott58]

I would very much appreciate am insiders perspective of the model car hobby.  Road and Track has a column written by Bob Lutz about the 1:1 industry.  Each month I find I start my reading there.  I'll add mt comments about this when I renew my subscription.  Tim Boyd is on to a great idea here.

I don't mind Lutz's views in Road & Track. But, why did they replace the PS feature with him? I miss that.

Scott

 

[1962Savoy]

Think with reissues they have a pretty good idea what flies or not....they call it past sales data

 

and listen to your customers wants would be a great concept?

I have been in the retail end of models for the last 36 years and been building for at least 55 years as well. The products Round 2 are bringing out are laughable at least,if they actually took the bull by the horn and turned out a brand new kit like Moebus or Monarch models do, which are very small home grown companys with little capital ,they could afford to bring other new one to market again.I think they would invest $30 grand in a new mold and run maybe 20,000 units tops cuz the molds are cheap aluminium and move on. Reissuing unwanted kits cuz its cheap will be the demize of the industry & hobby.my 2 cents worth.

[Steven Zimmerman]

Think with reissues they have a pretty good idea what flies or not....they call it past sales data

 

What sold in the past is not always a parameter of what will sell currently.

[Steven Zimmerman]

See I don't buy that. the people you are taking about never seen those reissue Wal-Mart never had them. The kids more than likely thought  that they looked stupid, because they didn't look like the Fast & Furious or the cars from the movie cars, I think they would have wiser making the old NASCAR models and NO I'm not a fan of NASCAR. My favorite would have been the old Pro Stock kits. I know 3 Hobby Shop owners that I buy from still have those Zinger things on the shelves, they also cringe at the new release Star Wars models when they come out. Simple because they don't sell 

I go to several swap meets a year, from Jersey to Michigan; those old NASCAR kits are EVERYWHERE for around $5  each, and they don't sell...........Why would they re issue when the market is glutted ?

[Luc Janssens]

What sold in the past is not always a parameter of what will sell currently.

You're right, cuz there are also models of cars which were hot when new, but far too young for classic status, thus completely out of the picture...

[Mike999]

I go to several swap meets a year, from Jersey to Michigan; those old NASCAR kits are EVERYWHERE for around $5  each, and they don't sell...........Why would they re issue when the market is glutted ?

I go to a local "general" flea market almost every week and see the same thing.  Any table with scale models almost always has NASCAR kits (and/or die-casts), going for very low prices. 

One vendor told me he bought 1,000 kits and die-casts from a recent widow, all NASCAR.  Said he bought them for $1.00 each and was having trouble selling them for even a small profit.

Different day, and another vendor had also just bought a roomful of model kits.  He also had scads of NASCAR kits, some old and still shrink-wrapped. Everything was priced at $5.00.  I bought several kits, and another buyer came up while I was there and bought some more (including some AMT '95 Ford F-150 promos I didn't see. Drat!)  When I came back by the table hours later, those NASCAR kits were still there but all the other kits were gone.

[Tom Geiger]

There are those of us in the hobby who like to know the business end. I've always been business minded and want to know what makes things tick in just about everything.  Through my involvement with NNL East, I have had access to many hobby insiders and have had great informative conversations about the business. I don't know everything, but I try to understand what I can because it's important that we aim NNL East to serve the market.

Today's business isn't about attracting kids. The children of today are not into the traditional hobbies because of all the stimuli around them. I won't say that people don't work with their hands, the large craft companies... Michaels, Hobby Lobby etc are alive and well. My daughters have always loved to do craft items and make Christmas presents. The gaming world is big, with physical game pieces that need to be hand painted. One very important note is that Lego is more popular than it's ever been.  I know of a small toy store locally that has been expert in exploiting this, managing to stock the hardest to find products.  Kids aren't cheap, some of these sets go for $300. The model companies could learn a lot from Lego.

I had the pleasure to meet with Scott English, Executive Director of the American Philatelic Society.  APS has been around well over 100 years, and has a headquarters in Pennyslvania with a huge research library and many paid staff.  The stamp hobby, which moans that they are dying, still is a much bigger group than model cars.  He was hired to breathe new life into APS and was formerly a lobbyist. He said the APS spent a good portion of their recruiting budget on youth programs.   While it's nice to do, it doesn't result in any growth in the hobby or APS membership.  Their membership is firmly in the retirement years. Their largest population is in the 65-75 age group, followed by the 75-85 group.  Their biggest growth is in the 55-65 age group, so this is where they are focusing their recruitment efforts.  This is no different than the model car hobby.  That is our growth area, as people have become empty nesters and are looking forward to retirement. People rediscover old hobbies. And that's the market that the model car companies are chasing today.

The model car companies today are very lean small companies. They have to be smart to be able to pull a profit out of a shrinking market that is already a tiny speck of what the kit market was in the heyday. Where kit runs in the 1960s ran in the 500,000 kit range, today's runs can be as low as 5,000 units.   That can only be done with huge knowledge in the history of the hobby, a love for it and an understanding of the reality of the current market.  All three of the major companies (Round Two, Revell and Moebius) do understand this market and are rightly chasing the baby boomers as we all age towards retirement.  We will have the time and money to pursue a hobby.

People do not seem to understand Round Two's business model. This company is the second reincarnation of Tom Lowe's, a guy in our age group, dream of chasing the nostalgia of his youth.  He started out as a company called Playing Mantis. I'm not going into the history here, but he eventually started Round Two when he leased and then purchased the AMT / MPC tooling  from the Tomy toy company.  There was worry that Tomy, who never wanted to be in the model car kit market, would scrap the tooling and it would be lost forever.  Tom Lowe was the white knight who saved it all.

Here starts the misunderstanding of this business. There is a misconception that the tooling is old so it's "bought and paid for, and off the books". All this historic tooling was purchased by Round Two within the last decade. So these assets are indeed on the books, and must be used to justify their purchase. In fact the very aim of this company is the nostalgia of our youth... bringing back the kits we loved as kids so we can build them again as adults. Understand that business model.

First lets think about the phenomena that this tooling still exists and works today.  Obviously over engineered back in the day,  some of it has produced millions of kits. Equally mind boggling is that through the many changes in ownership of these companies, that a huge inventory of somewhat unidentified tooling was allowed to exist for decades. This isn't the case in most companies. They will never suddenly find the tooling for 1957 Chevys at GM! Understand and appreciate that we have this all available to us today.

Round Two not only has a significant investment in this tooling, but they also have become thoughtful marketers who have added value to the kits. They have invested in repairing this tooling for optimum performance.  They have investigated the tools and have opened up blocked  channels to parts we haven't seen in these kits in many issues. They have added in cool new tires,  improved decal sheets and cool retro original box art.  They have added and changed some of these, such as the 1961 Ranchero becoming the 1960 model.  This is working, as people are buying these reissued kits for the cool factor, even though we have older issues of the same kit.

As they dig deeper into the tool vault, they are finding kits we haven't seen in decades.  These may require significant investment to bring them back. Model kits have several different tools. The main tool which has the body and all the "white" parts, the tool for the tires, the tool for the clear parts and sometimes the chrome parts are each a separate tool. These got lost over the years, so they sometimes have to recreate some of the tooling.  So in no way is the old tooling "Free".  

The people who criticize their efforts don't understand one of several things.  1. The company intended to reissue classic kits as their business   2. There is a significant investment in the tooling   3. The audience is baby boomers who remember these kits when they were new.  4. This is a tiny little company with limited resources.

The people criticizing  Zingers in this thread obviously weren't born when these were new, or weren't modelers back then.  Back in the 1969 era Zingers were a hot thing.  Model Car Science had a create your own Zinger contest that was like the event of the year.  MPC actually had full size running Zingers that they took around the country to drag strips as a promotion.  As kids we all bought and built the Zingers.  I ruined many 1/43 diecast cars trying to create my own.  Over the years they've been collected and drew big money on eBay and at shows.  So Round Two was right to reissue them.  Many people were very happy to see them.  But  some folks don't know this history and cannot appreciate it.

  

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by Tom Geiger

[stavanzer]

When I go to swap meets to sell kits, I don't even bother to pack the NASCAR kits anymore. In some cases, you cannot GIVE them away. NASCAR is dead. I'm not sure what killed it, but on the Model Car front anyways, it is barely there anymore.

[Tom Geiger]

One vendor told me he bought 1,000 kits and die-casts from a recent widow, all NASCAR.  Said he bought them for $1.00 each and was having trouble selling them for even a small profit.

and the large scale diecast collectibles market is also gone.  A few years ago someone contacted me with 3,000 pieces, all never out of the box.  His father had purchased these as an "investment".  He was excited and said he had seen some of them on eBay selling for more than $100!  He had taken the time to make an Excel spreadsheet listing each car, the quantity he had,  manufacturer and stock number.  This alone was an enormous effort!

So I went to eBay to check out his claims. For every car that was listed for $100,  there were several more of the very same car that had been listed and went unsold for $10.  I had to let this guy know there was no value there.  I told him the best thing to do was to go to a general flea market and put them out for $10 each and hope for the best.   He called back months later offering me the cars his father had paid up to $50 each for a dollar each.  I declined even at that price.

[Tom Geiger]

When I go to swap meets to sell kits, I don't even bother to pack the NASCAR kits anymore. In some cases, you cannot GIVE them away. NASCAR is dead. I'm not sure what killed it, but on the Model Car front anyways, it is barely there anymore.

Alan a few years ago a vendor donated a case of Nascar cars to our show as door prizes.  We couldn't give them away.  They were still there at the end of the day.  Same with 1/20 scale Lindberg kits

[Jordan White]

I think the biggest reason for the lack of NASCAR popularity is, unless you use the parts for another build, there's not much you can do with a stock-car kit other than build it box stock. With the older models that were based on actual cars, you had modification potential, whereas with the cars all having the same body for the past 20 years or so, they're just no fun (for me at least).

[keyser]

Tom, I didn't mean the tools were off the books, as R2 has to service the purchase debt. You did better job at fleshing that out than I tried.

Guess the main point was an unused tool is just scrap unless you run plastic thru it, and worn/neglected/fragmented tools aren't much better. Investment and rehab on a tool is less than a new tool, and since Tomy et al had no idea what they had, I'd guess they priced it commensurately. Older tools generate ready cash flow, dead tools revived can bring nostalgia and drop some of the idiotic prices for some collector kits. 63-64 Galaxies, 64 Marauder, 65 Lincoln were presumed long gone, and they made it back, survivng some of the awful dirt racer fates of others. Those conversions were destructive, limiting issue to a niche rather than a broader market. 

The oldest of boomers is retiring and drawing on their 401k's this year, Bloomberg has article today about same. Hard to believe, but 50 years ago was 1967. Lots of the re-issues were from then, the vintage box art from late 60's, the Barris kits, the Zingers all were great kits then, and nice to have now. I never did Daniel cars or Zingers as a kid, but I have a liking for Daniel stuff far more now. I'd paid collectors prices for original kits, and hunted builders. RM reissues filled a hole in my collection. 

Doubt your Valiants will be back, or my Renwal 66's, but the manufacturers are doing a nice job. The boat kits, Papa truck, all are niche, and can get extra runs if need be. The more profit they make, the more able they are to do new tools. Moebius' Ford trucks, the Bronco, the 300, are only a few, and I expect more to come from R2 soon. 

+1000 on the interviews with Tim, Dave, some of the other guys here. I enjoy the business end of the hobby, just as I enjoy the business end of 1:1 cars. 

Interesting thread Art started, being lost is ok, this is very esoteric stuff. Some great info in here for the 0.001%  

[Tom Geiger]

Thanks Christian,  I think this thread may educate some of the guys on the board who don't know a lot about the business and history.

I was into the Tom Daniel kits as a kid and paid dearly for some originals when I got back to the hobby.  When I was 11 years old and happily building the T'rantula,  little did I know I'd one day have a beer with Tom!  And hire him to do a piece of art!   

My blood boils when someone comes on a board and starts ranting that the model company executives are getting rich and laughing at us for buying bad kits. Those of us who know the size of these companies,  the quality of the guys running them, and the obstacles they face in getting kits out the door!  With the size of our market and the product runs, I'm amazed that anyone would be serving us!

 

[pack rat]

My blood boils when someone comes on a board and starts ranting that the model company executives are getting rich and laughing at us for buying bad kits. Those of us who know the size of these companies,  the quality of the guys running them, and the obstacles they face in getting kits out the door!  With the size of our market and the product runs, I'm amazed that anyone would be serving us!

 

Well stated, Tom.

I might also add....managers/hobbyists would be a more fitting term than "executives".  Some people seem to forget that they're talking about Round2, not General Motors.    

[echoxrayniner]

Tom, I didn't mean the tools were off the books, as R2 has to service the purchase debt. You did better job at fleshing that out than I tried.

Guess the main point was an unused tool is just scrap unless you run plastic thru it, and worn/neglected/fragmented tools aren't much better. Investment and rehab on a tool is less than a new tool, and since Tomy et al had no idea what they had, I'd guess they priced it commensurately. Older tools generate ready cash flow, dead tools revived can bring nostalgia and drop some of the idiotic prices for some collector kits. 63-64 Galaxies, 64 Marauder, 65 Lincoln were presumed long gone, and they made it back, survivng some of the awful dirt racer fates of others. Those conversions were destructive, limiting issue to a niche rather than a broader market. 

The oldest of boomers is retiring and drawing on their 401k's this year, Bloomberg has article today about same. Hard to believe, but 50 years ago was 1967. Lots of the re-issues were from then, the vintage box art from late 60's, the Barris kits, the Zingers all were great kits then, and nice to have now. I never did Daniel cars or Zingers as a kid, but I have a liking for Daniel stuff far more now. I'd paid collectors prices for original kits, and hunted builders. RM reissues filled a hole in my collection. 

Doubt your Valiants will be back, or my Renwal 66's, but the manufacturers are doing a nice job. The boat kits, Papa truck, all are niche, and can get extra runs if need be. The more profit they make, the more able they are to do new tools. Moebius' Ford trucks, the Bronco, the 300, are only a few, and I expect more to come from R2 soon. 

+1000 on the interviews with Tim, Dave, some of the other guys here. I enjoy the business end of the hobby, just as I enjoy the business end of 1:1 cars. 

Interesting thread Art started, being lost is ok, this is very esoteric stuff. Some great info in here for the 0.001%  

I gotta admit, being European and fairly young, I haven't got a clue on how tough it is and/or used to be on say AMT Ertl or Monogram to invest in tools, producing and getting out the door with little marketing other than whatever magazines I stumble upon, so these reads are really enlightening and fascinating!

[Mike999]

I think the biggest reason for the lack of NASCAR popularity is, unless you use the parts for another build, there's not much you can do with a stock-car kit other than build it box stock. With the older models that were based on actual cars, you had modification potential, whereas with the cars all having the same body for the past 20 years or so, they're just no fun (for me at least).

"Use the parts for another build" is exactly why I have a few NASCAR kits in the parts bin.  The roll cages provide plenty of round tubing (I'm using some right now on a 1/35 scale military build.)  Some kits had in-car cameras and other neat, hard-to-scratchbuild items.  The instrument panels can be used in street rods and other builds.  If they're cheap enough, I usually pick up the MONOGRAM "Stock Car Plus" series from around 1990 - they included a tool box, fuel can, fire extinguisher, driver figure and other useful accessories.

As for the market collapse in NASCAR die-casts and "collectibles," I think the big 2008 economic crash also had something to do with that.  I saw it happen to another segment of our hobby, the 1/6 scale Dragon "Battle Barbie" figures.  For years I went to The Black Watch hobby shop in Reseda, CA, every week. It was just a couple of miles from my house.  Joe Janssen had owned that shop since the 1970s, selling mostly military kits and figures in every scale.  Some of you may remember his ads in old copies of "Scale Modeling" and "Military Modeling" magazines.

In the early 2000s, people would be in The Black Watch every week clamoring for the latest 1/6 figures.  And often spending lots of money on different uniforms and accessories.  (One friend turned that into a profitable sideline.  He was retired from the US Navy and took up sewing as a hobby on long sea deployments.  He made incredibly detailed custom uniforms for those figures.)  Customers often bought several figures at once and they weren't cheap.  They were also willing to pay a premium for hard-to-find and limited-edition 1/6 scale figures.

I spent most of 2005-09 working in Egypt.  When I relocated back to Los Angeles in 2009, The Black Watch was nearly deserted on Fridays.  Nobody was buying 1/6 scale figures or much of anything else.  By 2012 Joe was barely making enough money to keep the lights on.  When a new landlord raised his store rent, he couldn't afford it and went out of business.  A sad end, but one that happened to many small businesses around that same time.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Mike999
Error

[Bob Ellis]

AMT made 14,000,000 models in 1964. Ran 3 shifts with about 1000 workers

[tim boyd]

AMT made 14,000,000 models in 1964. Ran 3 shifts with about 1000 workers

Bob...that's a great factoid/"grabber"/"did you know", as I call them.  

Do you recall the source of that info?   Thanks in advance....TIM.

[dave branson]

I go to several swap meets a year, from Jersey to Michigan; those old NASCAR kits are EVERYWHERE for around $5  each, and they don't sell...........Why would they re issue when the market is glutted ?

See there is a difference in old between me and you. What you are telling me is at these swap meets you can buy the 70 Petty Charger or David Isaac Charger for 5.00. Sorry I call bull on that. What you are talking about are the Gordon, Stewart, Dale, & Dale JR cars for 5.00 I believe that because they made so many of those my great grandkids will still buy those for 5.00. However  if they would bring back the NASCARS they from the 70's They would sell like hotcakes.  Just look at the cars that round 2 came out with those still sell around my area if the local dealers can get them.